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Most good Sister players will spend their Faith by the third turn and start using Marterdom to increase their faith potential. And again (and I will speak as if I was playing Sister against you for the remander of this post), I wouldn't devote all my forces to take out only 336 points. I would engage your fast, squsier bugs first. A Sister squad through faith can beat a Geenstealer squad in a protracted conflict because they can make their save invulnerable and negate your rending, so whatever survives their fire won't be hitting them at full efficency. As far as your Carnies are concerned they don't have a very good kill potential against Sister squads anyway so again they till won't be my first priority. If I have half my army left, and all you have is your Carnie's, you are playing on my terms now.



It's actually 26" with the 2" disembark, but I understand you point. However, I will say this again, your Carnie's are not my first target, anything fast is. I can handle the Carnifex's if they have no support.

My arguement was against your arguement that Sister was not a "top tier" army. Not specifically against the Nids.



And each of those hits only have a 33% change of stopping the rhino, and that is assuming that you can even see the rhino in the first place.



Once I get into position, I don't need the Rhinos anyway, and the shooting from your big bugs doesn't worry my infantry sqauds. Besides not all of my SOB squads will be mounted any way, so the dependance on the Rhino's are not as critical as you may think.



I would never try to do that, so this is a non arguement. If anything, I would try and jump a Carnifex with Serephim, to, at the very least, silience their shooting.



We are not talking about mounted Marines, we are talking about Sister,s. Coming from a person you tried to make mounted marines work for a year, there is simply no comparison. You are right though, Rhino's would have a hard time against your shooting, but you keep opporating under the assumption that I would expose my rhinos a turn before I would commit them. The rhinos only need a turn for driving at the enemy for them to do their job, after that I don't care what you do to them.



You would probably see a combination of the two in a good Sister list, because you wase to many points if you put to many transports on the field.

But I said it before and I will say it again. Your arguement that the Nidzilla's will almost always win is a faulty one and just plain stupid. You are comparing an army with a straight forward playstyle and advantages versus a finesse army with greater flexibility. Of coarse the easier army will be favored in arguements because of their more obvious streangths, but their are people who make very competitve, and highly effective armies out of the Sisters list because they understand how the army works and understnad how to use their faith effectively. I just think you are underestimating the flexibilty this list has in adapting to situations it might fight itself in. Its a stupid arguement anyways, because they only way to settle it is at the tables.

OK you win. Sisters are a top tier army and I should fear them.

Maybe if you strap teleporters on them so they can easily skip by carnifexes who are protecting the fast bugs.

Yeah, I am not so sure that you are playing the most cutthroat tacticians there Mahu.

The "fast bugs" don't run out ahead to get gunned down. The list moves forward as a whole, you hope you make target priority checks enough to actually take down some of the big guys.

If your Seraphim Charge the carnies, then the stealers/raveners/gaunts/tyrant+guard jump the seraphim and lay them down in a mass of high initiative attacks, inv faith used or not.

The fast bugs don't break cover until they are in charge range.

As for the Rhinos, to be honest, I fully expect you to be able to make the first shots out of them, given at least halfway decent terrain. You should be able to make your strikes with your mounted sisters squads. But we already figured out how much damage they do, with faith. Not enough.

As for walking sisters, I'm not sure that you are correct in saying that the most competetive lists take them. You are the first I have heard suggesting them outside of COD. Even that is debatable.

As long as the other sisters are dealt with (either through being in close combat, in which case the walking sisters can't shoot anyways, or by forcing them to retreat, another possibility) then the walking sisters can be avoided most of the game just by walking backwards.

I think you've nailed it, Happy. The florida guys haven't seen the Zilla bugs played as well as they are assuming Captain K can play his sisters, and so they assume it's a blunt force list with no finessable units. 40 pt squads of fearless gaunts be damned!

Aye. I agree with Longshot.

Posted By Longshot on 10/06/2006 8:27 PM
I think you've nailed it, Happy. The florida guys haven't seen the Zilla bugs played as well as they are assuming Captain K can play his sisters, and so they assume it's a blunt force list with no finessable units. 40 pt squads of fearless gaunts be damned!

You could be correct in saying that the "florida boys" don't have that much experience playing a good tactical guinius with Nidzilla lists. So now you have reduced the arguement to "I haven't played a good sisters player and you haven't played a good Nidzilla player", which only comes back to my original point, arguements like this are stupid because the tables are the only thing that can solve it.

CaptK does have a pretty good idea how the list plays though because he is working on one for the upcoming Adepticon. Also this Saturday, he faced a Tyranid player (balanced list with only two Carnies) and a Sister squad took out a Gunfex in two turns. He used deployment and bait to seperated it to concentrate on it and through Faith he killed it. I am not saying he is the greatest player ever, because after that I tabled him with my Word Bearers (though I admit that the dice where on my side).

If anything the arguement was to not underestimate the SoB in a competitve enviroment.

Now i understand the arguement of, if a good player can win consistantly with a finesse army than he will be unbeatable with a beat stick army, but I don't buy it. If you are playing a finesse army and winning, you are still winning, period. If you are taking that finesse army and beating beatstick armies, than maybe their is something to people mastering armies that don't have any obvious tactics. Nobody is argueing that the Nidzilla list is not competitve. Why people would argue it as a "top tier" list over other competitive list is because it has very obvious streagths and a pretty straight forward stratigy. SoB doesn't have that, but it has been proven consistantly, at least around here and other places, that it hold its own. Now if you want to talk about an uncompetitve codex, let's look at Deamonhunters. Otherwise, at least we can admit that this arguement has no provable end that doesn't involve a plane ticket and more money than anybody wants to spend to solve it.

I've got 5 bucks on Capt K if there is any money wagered.

Least here in Finland many tournaments this year have had up to 3 tyranid armies on the top 2 tables.... and its not even really rare anymore.

I've never seen a sisters army win anything except a weigh-in. Due to being mostly metal.

I for one would never really argue that sisters aren't competitive.

Just not really top tier.

I'm saying they're not competitive with top tier armies, so I guess I'm saying they're not top tier.

Competitive in bush league tournaments and against your random joes, sure. But so are Thousand Sons.

Capt K wrote:
This thread is still going on?

The Happy Anarchist Wrote:
Yeah, I am not so sure that you are playing the most cutthroat tacticians there Mahu.

Capt K wrote:
I'd disagree with that since there are plenty of cutthroat tacticians in the area.


The Happy Anarchist Wrote:
The "fast bugs" don't run out ahead to get gunned down. The list moves forward as a whole, you hope you make target priority checks enough to actually take down some of the big guys.

Capt K Wrote:

Well DUH! A very straight forward strategy for the bugs. Like Mahu said it doesn't take rocket science to figure out the Nidzilla game plan. A very straightforward way to play. However the things that are shooting your big bugs really don't have to worry about priority checks because either: A: it's a vehicle shooting them (exorcist), B: a unit within one of 2 canonesses with the book of Ld 10, C: a unit of retributors with the book. Either way, whatever is closest is usually going to take priority most likely anyways...unless a flying tyrant is on the prowl of course. In opening turns very little of my force would be committed since your armie moves so slow. Depending on the mission it is usually in my best interest to wait with the bulk of my force or jockey into a great position.

The Happy Anarchist Wrote:
If your Seraphim Charge the carnies, then the stealers/raveners/gaunts/tyrant+guard jump the seraphim and lay them down in a mass of high initiative attacks, inv faith used or not.

Capt K wrote:
Since Mahu isn't a SOB player we can give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. I would never use the seraphim to that capacity. The seraphim are there for crowd control and counter assault, not assaulting Carnifexes. With 2 flame templates most of your gaunts get squished. In the last game I played against a nid player, I kept the seraphim in the back lines until turn 5. Once the bulk of his forces were condensed between to forests the template hosing the recieved from a Callidus and Seraphim pretty much killed them all dead save for two, which broke since I removed the synapse presence in the area (a group of Zoeys). Then the callidus kept the stealers busy for two turns by jumping back.

The Happy Anarchist Wrote:
The fast bugs don't break cover until they are in charge range.

Capt K wrote:
Indeed. But sometimes your missions and possibly terrain aren't going to afford you that luxury all the time.

The Happy Anarchist Wrote:
As for the Rhinos, to be honest, I fully expect you to be able to make the first shots out of them, given at least halfway decent terrain. You should be able to make your strikes with your mounted sisters squads. But we already figured out how much damage they do, with faith. Not enough.

Capt K wrote:
You might be right about the first strikes, but the damage that they can do is quite high. I proved that several times last weekend. So to say "it isn't enough" is simply not true. My 8 man celestian squad took out a dakkafex with ease. Granted, the player took the bait when I jumped them out in front of his left flank. After weathering the shooting from the zoey and the dakkafex, they still had the numbers left to take it down between their shooting phase and assault phase. I shot with a HF, plasma pistol, and Meltagun. Did one wound in the shooting phase and then charged it. Divine guidanced my unit and did two more wounds. Then at initiative step 1 the carni swings and killed one. In retort, the eviserator swings and kills it. In the end, I score VP's for killing a dakkafex, silence a large amount of shooting, and the opponent scored none since my unit was still scoring (and remained that way for the rest of the game). Unless tooled to fight in CC, carnifexes suck balls in close combat. 2 attacks at initiative 1 does not scare me. The loadout and size of my squads is plenty of power to drag one of those down.

Capt K

Longshot wrote: I've never seen a sisters army win anything except a weigh-in. Due to being mostly metal.

Then I guess you really haven't been slapped around by a good SOB list then.

Capt K

Longshot Wrote: I'm saying they're not competitive with top tier armies, so I guess I'm saying they're not top tier.

Competitive in bush league tournaments and against your random joes, sure. But so are Thousand Sons.

Capt K wrote:
I never claimed they were a top tier list (to be top tier a vast majority have to be playing it anyways...and lets face it SOB isn't a popular mainstream army to begin with.). What I am claiming is that SOB have little to fear from Choir Nidzilla.

As for competitive "bush league" tournaments, I don't classify Adepticon as bush league. Last year there were several players that placed rather high. This year I plan on bringing them to Adepticon to see if I can beat the highest placing SOB army from the year before. Just for sh*ts and giggles.

Capt K

If you're claiming that SOB have little to fear from nidzilla, you're either an idiot or you're exaggerating too much.

Everyone, myself included, looks at their list and then Nidzilla and says "man, that would be an easy win!"

But it just isn't like that. My drop pods don't walk through nidzilla even though it's an easier fight for me than it is for most. The nid zilla army is like nothing you've ever faced. If you haven't played an army with 5 carnifexes and 2 tyrants, you simply have no idea.

My buddy's Lysanderwing thought I would be an easy fight too, and the only reason I did not win completely was because he rolled 30% rending and I forgot that Zoanthropes don't score. Lysander is about the most stacked army against Nids other than Iron Warriors.

Well then, I don't think this thread should be here anymore, its just an e-peen contest at this point. One side is all about "Zilla is gonna rock your face." the other side is unwilling to accept that with whatever army list they try and trot out onto the forum. The only way to solve this is have an actual round, at which point most likely someone will say "Well you see here sonny, they didn't play with a top tier list so X side doesn't matter." Either rate NO tactics have been developed from this thread making it useless.

Zilla's gonna rock your face!

Posted By ATI on 10/10/2006 5:04 PM
Well then, I don't think this thread should be here anymore, its just an e-peen contest at this point. One side is all about "Zilla is gonna rock your face." the other side is unwilling to accept that with whatever army list they try and trot out onto the forum. The only way to solve this is have an actual round, at which point most likely someone will say "Well you see here sonny, they didn't play with a top tier list so X side doesn't matter." Either rate NO tactics have been developed from this thread making it useless.

I disagree on all points.  First off, I disagree unconditionally with anyone who says talking and conversation are pointless, at any point.

Facts are being stated, numbers are being thrown out, things are being theorized.  Of course, the anti-zilla argument does need to bring a few more numbers to the table, but I am sure they are up to the job.

Secondly, several tactics have been developed, several have been discredited and others are still being disputed.  If you think that no tactics have been developed in this thread, you quite simply have reading comprehension problems.
Furthermore, if you think discrediting tactics that may be tried is not useful, you will have very major problems learning.

I happen to have taken a great deal of information from this thread, and my ideas and tactics have evolved as a result. I'm sure I am not the only one.  Therefore this thread is useful to at least one person, verifiably, unless you believe that I don't exist.

Furthermore, the amount of condescension you have for people who disagree is pretty insulting.   Apparently we are all children who will do nothing but scream at eachother, despite both sides presenting a great deal of evidence, reacting to eachothers arguments and generally discussing things, even if no consensus has been reached.

Little fact about life.  People disagree about facts, and think different facts are accurate or inaccurate, same with opinions.  People place different weight on numbers vs experience, research and odds against eyewitness accounts and what they have personally done over what groups of other people on the internet may disagree with.  This does not mean that their discussions are meaningless, nor does that fact that they are not likely to agree on the issue mean that the discussion doesn't matter.

Oh noes, Happy, you mean discussion in a forum for discussion is OK? What will they think of next?

OH NOES!!!!ONE! I R WTFPwned

You can be upset with me, and my very frank understanding of this thread, but honestly this whole thread boiled down to "SOB can kill zilla nids" and "No Zilla nids will kill because they are top tier".  And a large discussion between Capt K trying to show SOB is viable, and you and longshot quite simply brush his army aside with stats and what not, insult the caliber of the opponents that Capt K might be playing against. (The comment regarding the "florida boys"   The fact is, we can't decide the issue of SOB vs. Zilla nids on the forum (Impossible to do so, which is why instead this forum has led to lots of average calculators which is great to show you the basic math, unfortunately averages and numbers can't take into account any number of variables that occur once you are actually playing an opponent on the field).  what this thread originally was about was what a choir list looks like.  That part of this forum was great.  In fact it was very fruitful, so I overgeneralized in my previous post.

This thread is about sharing ideas, not rehashing the same idea for 4 pages regarding an army list vs. zilla nids.  I just think this thread has outlasted its original usefulness with regard to choir nids lists.   Remember, whenever someone says "what aobut X tactic, weapon, strategy" it is you happy anarchist and longshot who simply say "Don't forget my guys are in cover, my guys will shoot back, my guess have X which will make things hard for you."  Thats great, itsabout as brilliant as any insight I have made on this thread which admitedly is very lame. 

Now, while I eloquently bow out from this debate, i bid this rather silly internet war begone. I hope that the true awakening of knowledge and tactica can be ever so slightly squeezed from the ephemoral corporations that constitute this thread.

You need to stop taking pompous pills dude. You don't have the skills to pull off the holier than thou crap.

We've been taking turns explaining our views. Then you pop in and act like you're better than us lowly peons who use a wargaming forum to discuss wargaming tactics. So, sod off.

Longshot Wrote: If you're claiming that SOB have little to fear from nidzilla, you're either an idiot or you're exaggerating too much.

Capt K wrote: (sarcasm)Yeah Longshot, I'm an idiot. I have nooo idea what I'm talking about (sarcasm). There IS no exaggeration. I have provided my point of view based on playing against a choir list several times. Now while it may be hard for you to digest this, it doesn't make it any less real. Like ATI and Mahu have stated this thread has degenerated into a " Choir Nidzilla list owns all" thread. Well I'm here to say that really isn't true. An extremely difficult list to beat, but not impossible. I raised the point that a well composed SOB army list wouldn't have the same disadvantages that other armies would face against it. You keep restating "no. you have no idea what I am talking about." and calling into question my opponents and my skills as a player. I guess the truest test is to take it to the tables.

Capt K

Longshot Wrote: Everyone, myself included, looks at their list and then Nidzilla and says "man, that would be an easy win!"

But it just isn't like that. My drop pods don't walk through nidzilla even though it's an easier fight for me than it is for most. The nid zilla army is like nothing you've ever faced. If you haven't played an army with 5 carnifexes and 2 tyrants, you simply have no idea.

Capt K Wrote:

You are correct. It ISN"T an easy win and NO where in my posts have I claimed it to be an easy win. All I have repeatedly said is that the strategies utilized by a Choir list isn't going to have the same impact on a SOB list that it normally would on others. Especially a well composed list.The Nidzilla army is something I have plenty of knowledge of. I am in the process of building one myself. So to say I have no idea just makes you look like a fool. However, on the flip side. How many really good SOB armies have you faced? Have you ever played as SOB? My guess is probably not.

Capt K

Posted By ATI on 10/10/2006 11:04 PM
OH NOES!!!!ONE! I R WTFPwned

You can be upset with me, and my very frank understanding of this thread, but honestly this whole thread boiled down to "SOB can kill zilla nids" and "No Zilla nids will kill because they are top tier".  And a large discussion between Capt K trying to show SOB is viable, and you and longshot quite simply brush his army aside with stats and what not, insult the caliber of the opponents that Capt K might be playing against. (The comment regarding the "florida boys"   The fact is, we can't decide the issue of SOB vs. Zilla nids on the forum (Impossible to do so, which is why instead this forum has led to lots of average calculators which is great to show you the basic math, unfortunately averages and numbers can't take into account any number of variables that occur once you are actually playing an opponent on the field).  what this thread originally was about was what a choir list looks like.  That part of this forum was great.  In fact it was very fruitful, so I overgeneralized in my previous post.

This thread is about sharing ideas, not rehashing the same idea for 4 pages regarding an army list vs. zilla nids.  I just think this thread has outlasted its original usefulness with regard to choir nids lists.   Remember, whenever someone says "what aobut X tactic, weapon, strategy" it is you happy anarchist and longshot who simply say "Don't forget my guys are in cover, my guys will shoot back, my guess have X which will make things hard for you."  Thats great, itsabout as brilliant as any insight I have made on this thread which admitedly is very lame. 

Now, while I eloquently bow out from this debate, i bid this rather silly internet war begone. I hope that the true awakening of knowledge and tactica can be ever so slightly squeezed from the ephemoral corporations that constitute this thread.

I am not upset with you or your frank understanding of this thread.  I am upset at your frank misunderstanding and misrepresentation of this thread.

Sidetracks in forum discussion can be just as useful as original topics.

The large discussion is what has been interesting to me, and I take heart in the fact that you consider us able to brush aside their arguments with stats (you know, facts and numbers, good things those)

There are things in 40k that can't be determined by numbers.   Primarily range, mobility and player skill.
In all cases, we gave the sisters players the benefit of the doubt with out numbers. 
They get first strike, they get to apply their whole force, whatever they want.

But really.  The only time a sisters squad gets to kill more points of Carnis than the Fexes take off of them is when they use Faith.  This is normal, Faith is what the sisters list is built on.  But it is not limitless.  Even when it is, the Carnis don't ever have to worry about running away, have close combat backup that is heavily nasty and will never be shaken, stunned, or destroyed in one turn.

Two exorcists firing (by Mahu's own calculations, though he seemed to take great pride in the numbers for some reasons) only do an average of 2 wounds to a Carni in cover.   3 If they don't have cover.  That is two of their guys that make one Carni not score, but affect firepower in no way.
Counter fire on the Exorcists will keep them from shooting the next turn, minimum.  They also have decent chances at blowing off weapons, immobilizing or destroying entirely.
No amount of player skill is going to make those numbers change.  There is a luck factor.  Sometimes the Exorcist might get lucky and eliminate a fex each.  Other times, they may not make a single wound before succumbing to enemy fire.
Sometimes the Sisters will bake a Carni and sometimes they will lose their VSS, which holds that all important book.  Suddenly they are checking Ld at -3 to 5.
(I don't believe the sisters get their save against always on psychic powers, or do they?)
In any case, the VAST majority of times that two Exorcists shoot at a Carni they will inflict between 1 and 4 wounds.  A majority of the time it will be 2-3. 

However, there were things I hadn't taken into account on sisters.  Foremost among them was how effectively they could tie you up in assault.   They won't do as much damage without rapidfiring bolters (which comprise most of the wounds inflicted in the above example) but they can still cause some harm and stop the firing.  
This means I will be avoiding assault more than I might otherwise.  Of course, you can't really assault out of a Rhino, and walking sisters will not be able to catch up to you, being in range of your countercharge before they are in range of your MC wall.
That leaves Seraphim pretty much.  Plus that annoyingly impossible to kill 2+ invulnerable leader.  Gah.

Anyhoo, I find the discussion quite enlightening, the fact that you can't seem to learn anything from it does not keep me from doing so at all.

One thing I would like to say though.  Can we leave out the implications that the other people are saying that Zilla > all or that Sisters have nothing to fear or that it will be an easy win.
In any case, with nearly any army, facing a competent opponent will never be a cakewalk.  The sisters list may not be a tourney dominator, but it is certainly very effective and effective against massive hordes and big bugs alike.  It will not be without troubles.

Nice post Happy,

One additional thing I'd like to add is that the SOB do indeed get a save against Psychic Scream since they have the ability to bounce any powers that include them in the area of effect. Since Psychic Scream has a area of effect up to 24" Any units in that area will be getting their save. If that fails, they always have the VSS with a book or hopefully a canoness nearby.

Capt K

You're all misinterpretting this thread, it was only a question as to what the Choir is...

Posted By Mephet'ran on 10/12/2006 8:45 AM
You're all misinterpretting this thread, it was only a question as to what the Choir is...

Nope.  The thread is drifting off topic.  You could argue that the original post was that, but that question was answered and other information and questions came forward.
/Minor quibble

I know, I'm splitting hairs here. Anyway, don't stop, it was just getting exciting...

Here's perhaps a silly question. Has anyone played with or against or heard about a Godzilla/Choir army with HtH carnifexes? And if so was it at all successful? I know Yakface's article recommends against hth carnies, and I understand why. And I know that most successful Godzilla lists are shooty. But HtH 'fexes are just so cool.