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It's not 60" (unless you're playing on a 4'x5'); it's 72"...

I just tried my list out against a zilla nids army. I did well, killed the dakka fex on first turn, flyrant on second turn, killed the gun fex in close combat with my master, and surprisingly killed the brood lord in CC.

I guess the important strat is to FOCUS FIRE. There was cover and stuff like that, and my opponent deployed in it, really hurt my missile launcher squads and made my lascannons less effective, however my bolter fire made up for the losses, surprisingly.

Again, focusing fire, having a counter assault force for the less powerful (or slower) enemies is great. I used assaulters to keep my guys perfectly fine from the fleeting gaunts and steelers. HB squad dealt with the genestealers. Also my guys were in plenty of cover, he wasn't able to pin anything because of the master, and the lion helm (4+ invulnerable in a 3" ring from shooting) was extra insurance against any zoanthropes.

The zoanthropes deep striked but had extremely bad luck falling into friendly units or walls. So...that was much easier.

I was actually able to break the synapse ring which was great against the gaunts when they tried to assault and had to make bad moral checks.

All in all it was a fun game and required serious fire control.

All you've really established, Sutekh, is that I can't do basic arithmetic in my head reliably. Point's the same

And that's all I was gunning for...

ATI, it doesn't sound like you played against a godzilla list. You should have had to kill 3 dakka fexes and 2 gunfexs minimum. Plus there's no broodlord in a true zilla list (and its no surprise you killed him in close combat, he's not all that great). Sounds like you faced 12 or 13 T6 wounds. Godzilla armies have 30+ T6 wounds.

I like those deepstriking zoanthroapes...those are cool....

Few armies are that good that they win when played bad, that said any army can be beat.
Still you might want to check those deepstriking zoans at the door.

There were a bunch, but I didn't now how to classify them. There were 4 fexes, two tyrants, some warriors (big deal) Had to deal with 20+ T6 wounds. The broodlord I played was nasty in CC, initiative 7 strength 6 no save rending hits, thats death for a SM squad (I'm not entirely sure thsi was legal but oh well). A real advantage was him losing his Lictors to DS mishaps. That really made my day.  EDIT: Also this player was young, and my general unfamiliarity with the nids army lent to many blunders on classifications and rules regarding his list so....

If I didn't hit a real zilla list then oh well, maybe godzuki zilla nids.

@longshot: Easily. I hid them until ready to shoot. No need to expose them until that time. The tables I play on have plenty of terrain. If there is more it benefits me greatly since I can manuever my transports without getting picked off. Have you seen a good SOB list go against a NidZilla list? Just curious.

Capt K

Most likely Godzuki Zilla Nids.

Two Tyrants and a BroodLord equals three HQ choices, so you definitely didn't see that.

Zoanthropes don't deep strike, so that's another non-Zilla Nid item.  You are probably referring to Lictors.

You have a ton of missile launchers but only 6 AP 2 weapons that hit past 12", warp field on a Flyrant and more than 25% terrain will ruin your day against a veteran Zilla Player.

I've noticed that a lot of players with really shooty lists never play cleanse.  I'd like to see what happens when they get pushed back in their deployment zones by their opponent putting his first choice as close to the center as possible.  That leaves only 24" separating you , and your back is already against the board edge.  Ravenors, Genestealers and Flyrants are in charge on turn 2 then, your opponent has units in both adjacent table corners, and you have only two mobile units to either counter his assaults or try to contest the corners.  Also, on turn 2 the dakkafexes will open up with a total of 24 BS 3 Strength 6 shots, twin-linked and re-roll wounds.  That is basically 18 wounds,  and 6 failed power armor saves.

Not everyone plays the "let's stand in a line and shoot" version of 40K (read Seek and Destroy).  There are other missions to play, and you can't always deploy much farther than 24" away.  Godzilla Lists are amazing in cleanse, where claiming corners and pushing your enemies deployment back 24" are key.

You deploy 18" away in Cleanse if memory serves. Makes Scouting genestealers nasty

Maybe by "Zoanthropes" he meant Raveners? Either they were Lictors or DSing Ravs...the first is a bad unit, the second is a bad use of a good unit. Regardless, it doesn't sound like a particularly well-tuned Godzilla list.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a "Minilla" (I'm a purist...Godzilla does NOT have a flying sidekick, nor does he have laser beam eyes) list as long as you have 100 Gaunts to back up the MCs...

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 10/02/2006 10:15 AM
@longshot: Easily. I hid them until ready to shoot. No need to expose them until that time. The tables I play on have plenty of terrain. If there is more it benefits me greatly since I can manuever my transports without getting picked off. Have you seen a good SOB list go against a NidZilla list? Just curious.

Capt K

It's easy, he hides the bugs until he is ready to shoot.
Really, if that is your stunning tactical revelation, the devestating new theory of hide behind cover before you are ready to shoot, you may need to play more people.

Lots of people do that.  In fact, every good player uses the terrain to his advantage.  And even more importantly, every good player has ways around that same strategy.

THA Wrote: It's easy, he hides the bugs until he is ready to shoot.
Really, if that is your stunning tactical revelation, the devestating new theory of hide behind cover before you are ready to shoot, you may need to play more people.

Lots of people do that. In fact, every good player uses the terrain to his advantage. And even more importantly, every good player has ways around that same strategy.


Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner. Of COURSE he's going to hide his big bugs, cause if he doesn't, they die. Of COURSE good players use terrrain to their advantage, but you guys are carrying on like the TMC list is unstoppable-so-don't-even-bother-to-try-and-beat-it list. The bottomline is that a TMC choir list isn't really going to affect a SOB army like you think it is unless you have some sort of mysterious inside info I am not aware of.The TMC isn't going to win that game handily (if at all). In most cases I'd bet on the SOB player to win that matchup. With Faith Points every gun they have can mow through their big bugs (and small bugs). The TMC's toughness and armor save won't help much. Again. The key to beating TMC is smart target selection. Do that right, and the TMC player will have to be bringing their A game. Do that wrong, and the TMC list will dominate, dominate, dominate. That is the primary advantage with TMCs. Most don't know how to handle playing against them.

Capt K

Actually I would like to point out that I don't use terrain to my advantage. It makes victory that much more sweet. *end sarcasm*

terrain matters, but if the game is simply about who is and isn't in cover then we can stop playing after we deploy our troops and setup terrain. Just kidding. I can understand Capt's feelings, to me its the same, use smart target selection, problem should be solved.

Of course the problem is solved. Because the nids could never do anything like selecting smart targets themselves.

Why do you guys keep promoting basic tactics like they are the be all and end all of any list? The rest of us are debating this with both players using terrain and choosing good targets in mind.

The only variable is availability of good targets and the fact that target priority checks are going to fail vastly more often against the choir.

Also, the only ones carrying on like it is unbeatable are the ones raving at you in your imaginations. The rest of us are saying that they are a very tough, top tier list. Not King of the Hill Seer Council/Iron Warriors lists, but tougher than quite a few lists could handle.

Sisters have alot of advantages against big bugs. Just as tough against most of their fire as Marines, but for less point. Every bolter can hurt you. Exorcists can put the hurt on MCs. The invincible Cannoness can tie up the Winged Tyrant indefinitely
Zillas have some advantages too. Particularly on the close combat end. Sisters don't have a solution for single Ravener squads, guant tie up units, or stealers that get in close.

I may have to give it to you though, Sisters do have some decided advantages against big bugs. Still, those are specific aspects of the sisters list that cause that, so the original point still stands.

I would be willing to bet any sisters player I played against hard money that all I have to do is walk forward in cover and kill you as the opportunity presents, and/or take objectives

My strategy would be the brilliant 'walk right at you and laugh at your pitiful attempts to kill me' offense.

Your optimal range with sisters is 12" and your movement is 12". That means any turn you want to engage me with your mounted sisters you must start within 24". My range is 18" on dakkafexes, more on the rest of my army.

Then you have to factor in that my firepower is better than yours by drastic amounts from >24". From 42" I am throwing 5 S8 shots and 4 S10 shots from bugs that don't get shaken/stunned.

You do not want to shoot it out with bugs when the entirety of your >24" firepower consists of non-possessed tanks. You'll lose to the two gunfexes every time. I had a shootout with a three railhead list, and won it easily in 3 turns with just the gunfexes and tyrant. Don't think your exorcists are going to do any better.

Once you move the three exorcists out to shoot they will not even kill one gunfex in a turn.

You will have 10.5 shots on average, which means 7 hits, which means 5.833 wounds on T6 fexes (mine are T7), 3.8 wounds in 5+ cover.

So the gunfexes and Tyrant shoot back and your SUPER SECRET plan of 'wait until I can fire first' falls apart. Because you don't have enough guns to really kill anything when you come out. You can't even take a single gun away from me!

If your mechanized horde deploys, they instantly die. Do the math on what a faith pointed squad of sisters does to a carnifex. You won't be that impressed

I guess you should ask Vsurma since he's played the most games of the big bug guys I have seen. But so far anything that isn't long ranged guns or 2+ saves has been a laugh fest for me.

I'll be very frank, the only strategy everyone agrees on is using basic firing priority and focus fire tactics. Everyone on this thread has at some level agreed that yes, this is the way to fight Choir and zilla nids. If thats true then don't get upset with people relying on that as a tactic. If you think there is a better tactic then please, give us illucidation. I didn't come to the tactics thread because I knew how to fight the zilla nids or choir nids, i came to figure out how to hone my game against a list that I admitedly have ZERO clue about.

EDIT Additionally, against Vsurma's argument that mobility is key in 4th ed. I'm willing to grant mobility is great, but then again you can ask any Iron Warriors player what value they have on mobility and you'll get a flat 0 as a response. Mobility is great in 4th ed. absolutely true, however, that doesn't mean that armies that sacrifice mobility for more guns are at an extreme loss, even in missions that require movement. Like I said, if that were true there would be less IW players.  The theory being that if you have enough guns to prevent your opponents movement, then the game falls to simple who can and can't get more VPs off of the other.  Although in a 1500 point game, there are less tactical options. I generally play 2k points, where you can easily fit in 1400 points for heavy weaons and 600 points for fast attack keeping both mobility and shooting powers at a high value.

Your frustration with our responses Happy Anarchist makes plenty of sense, its the EXACT same frustration I feel when looking at this debate. On one end, all we have agreed on is that focus fire and basic tactics and lots of heavy guns will help down a zilla nids list. However, NO ONE has, as of yet, came up with a definitive strategy beyond the basics. That is frustrating to me, because I know there is more to it, there has to be a finesse to the army, or else why would zilla nids be doing so well? Again, you're frustrated about the tactics we espouse as basic, yet it works (I guess the saying, "hell if it works then it works." , while we are equally frustrated that this tactics thread has yet to come up with something beyond a basic response to the choir and zilla nids lists.

So, I have to say that I am heartfuly sorry for sounding like I am bull headed, but honestly I just want to work to find a better answer. Unfortunately my limited knowledge on the subject is more harmful than useful so I differ to others understanding of the situation and so far that understanding has only gotten to basic tactics.

The problem is, focus fire isn't the answer to nidzilla armies. It's the answer to any army. No matter what you are playing against, proper target selection is key.
One major problem with it against Choir nids is that your target selecting is doubly hampered. For one, you are making target priority checks with low Ld scores. On the other hand, when MCs get injured, but not killed, they can be moved behind other MCs who can then take the fire. This means it can take twice as long to remove guns from the list.

Also, if the Iron Warriors you are playing rate mobility a 0, you aren't playing the tourney winners. They always include mobile firepower. Oblits all move and shoot, albiet slowly. Usually Preds/Defilers are included. The simple reason? Immobile firepower only gets shots with your opponents consent. They have to move into your firelanes. You can make them want to do that, but if they decide not to, you won't get a shot off.
Basically, you are letting the opponent engage you on their terms.

I think the main thing about zilla lists is the same main problem with gaunt swarms. They are difficult to beat with take all comers lists. You either don't have enough high strenght, high AP weapons, or you don't have enough high ROF weapons.

Generally, a very mobile army might have a decent chance by trying to get around the nid swarm and target individual bugs at long range, basically playing a VP denial game.
As for a stand and shoot army? That is much trickier. They have to rely on having more high strength high AP firepower. Either through the IWs or AssCan lists trick of having anti-horde & anti tank all in one package, or by intentionally weakening yourself against infantry lists.

Happy Anarchist Wrote: The problem is, focus fire isn't the answer to nidzilla armies. It's the answer to any army. No matter what you are playing against, proper target selection is key.
One major problem with it against Choir nids is that your target selecting is doubly hampered. For one, you are making target priority checks with low Ld scores. On the other hand, when MCs get injured, but not killed, they can be moved behind other MCs who can then take the fire. This means it can take twice as long to remove guns from the list.


Capt K writes:
See this is what I'm getting at. SOB won't suffer from the Choir as much as other armies since they:
A: Have a built in resistance to psychic powers
B: The Book of St. Lucius will help against morale checks.

Secondly, beating a Nidzilla list isn't always about killing the models outright. Sometimes it is more preferable to take the TMC's to a point where they aren't a scoring unit and win through objectives. YMMV, but that's what my play experience has shown me.


Longshot Wrote: I would be willing to bet any sisters player I played against hard money that all I have to do is walk forward in cover and kill you as the opportunity presents, and/or take objectives My strategy would be the brilliant 'walk right at you and laugh at your pitiful attempts to kill me' offense. Your optimal range with sisters is 12" and your movement is 12". That means any turn you want to engage me with your mounted sisters you must start within 24". My range is 18" on dakkafexes, more on the rest of my army. Then you have to factor in that my firepower is better than yours by drastic amounts from >24". From 42" I am throwing 5 S8 shots and 4 S10 shots from bugs that don't get shaken/stunned. You do not want to shoot it out with bugs when the entirety of your >24" firepower consists of non-possessed tanks. You'll lose to the two gunfexes every time. I had a shootout with a three railhead list, and won it easily in 3 turns with just the gunfexes and tyrant. Don't think your exorcists are going to do any better.

Capt K writes:
This is where respectfully, I disagree.... and I'd take that bet. Again, sometimes the mission is simply to bring your TMC's below scoring. With the exception of a few that have regen, this isn't an impossible task. While it is true that I must start at a certain point away, the approach is dictated on my terms since my entire army is mounted. Since I haven't run the math on 10 sisters in a rhino dumping and shooting a dakkafex I have no hard data other than experience. My 10 sisters loadout is: 7 with bolters, 1 meltagun, 1 HF, the vet sister superior has a plasma pistol and eviserator. So if you want to figure it out, be my guest. Usually that is suffient firepower to kill one. Sometimes a combined arms approach with seraphim helps as well. The Exorcists are usually reserved for tyrant and gunfex duty and the retributors have genestealer/ spinegaunt detail. So far my army hasn't had a problem against a Choir Nidzilla list. However, if that list swapped out the zoeys for another TMC. It would be a tougher game for sure. At the end of the day, it mainly comes down to what experiences each has had in their games against Choir TMC. I haven't had a problem with them with my SOB.

Capt K

Guess that makes sense then. I mean, it would be no problem for me to completely forego my generalist list and simply make a very high powered anti-zilla nids list with chapter banner to help re roll failed leadership checks and a master.

You are right, my classification for mobility was too narrow, I meant standard movement of 6" as not being an ideal for mobility. But, I have to grant that the IW do have mobile units, simply they are slow moving as opposed to a stand still army.

Few have.

K, you are a nut buddy.

plasma pistol, melta, HF, 7 sisters -> less than 2 wounds after cover saves.

Not even enough to get it below scoring. Try again. It would take two squads to even reliably get one below scoring.

Longshot:

I guess you missed the part where I usually will use combined arms if the situation requires it...additionally for only two wounds you must really be good with making a lot of cover saves then. Not a nut, just calling it like I see it from playing experience. Also remember that any wound inflicted by a HF with divine guidance removes your precious cover save, so in some cases you aren't always guaranteed one.

Capt K

I will run the math for CaptK.

Versus Toughness 7:

Plasma Pistol = 1 shot, .36 (60%) Hit, .18 (50%) Wound

Melta Gun = 1 Shot, .36 (60%) Hit, 0.216 (60%) Wound

Heavy Flamer = 1 Autohit, .16 (16%) Wound, AP1 from Divine Guidance

7 Rapid Fire Bolters = 14 Shots, 8.4 (60%) Hit, 1.34 (16%) Wounds, AP1 from Divine Guidance

The grand total is 1.896 Wounds, 1.736 you can get a cover save from. 30% chance to save = 1.216 Wounds that a SOB squad can put on a Carnifex in cover.


Here is another fun calculation.

2 Exorcists shoot at a Carnifex:

An avverage of 8 Shots between the two. 4.8 Hits, 2.88 Wounds. In cover a Carni will only save .86 of said wounds, meaning that it will take 2.02 wounds in cover.


Dakkafex calculations:

Versus a SOB squad...

8 Shots, 4 Hits (50%) plus 2 (twin-linked) equals 6 hits, 4.98 Wounds (83%) plus .84 (re-roll) equals 5.82 wounds. Of those wounds 40% will fail which equals 2.38 casualties.



So in a straight shoot out between your typical Dakka Fex and an SOB squad. I would think that the SOB squad comes out on top. Neither of the shooting reduces the units below scoring, but in a points kill ratio the SOB squad had over 28 points of death versus the Fex having 26 points of return fire.

The thing that makes puts the Sister on top though is that a Sister squad is much better in CC than the Carnifex is and would probably finish it of in a few rounds of combat.

However all these calculations are "vacuum hammer" and doesn't take into account the SOB squad moving into position and the relative terrain. But I would wager that and half decent SOB player has learned to postion his transpots properly to set up favorable situations like the above. Though the tyranid player has some speed in Revengers, Geenstealers, Hormagaunts, etc. Sisters don't really fear those models because a typical Sisters list has so many counters to those models, it's sick. So really the only advantage that a Nidzilla list have is its increadibly tough Carnifexes. In my calculations, I was pitting a troop choice versus an elite choice, but the typical SOB lists I see have ground pounding Sisters,Celetians with multiple Evisorators and a Priest, Serephim with Faith and Hit and Run, Cannoness with Evisorator or Blessed Weapon and a free faith. Exorcists, Retributors, and Immolators add to the fun.

So essentially what I am argueing, is that against a good SOB list and a good SOB player, Nidzilla lists won't get an easy win. In fact there is a decent possibility that an SOB list will beat a Nidzilla list. But there is no way Longshot nor CaptK can prove that without going to the tables. But it is a stupid arguement that a Nidzilla list will always beat a SOB list.

Sister squads are better in HTH than a 100 point carnifex. Yes. If you burn a faith point. Otherwise you're not so hot, since you hit on 4s and wound on 4s with a 2 attack eviscerator and hit on 4s and wound on 6s with your normal sisters.

Unfortunately they're not so great against a flying Tyrant and raveners, genestealers, and gaunts.

If you dump out 4 mechanized squads of sisters in front of me, you'll kill one dakkafex and wound another if you get lucky, and then get countercharged by my entire army. Flyrant, 6 raveners, some genestealers and a bunch of gaunts, and whatever carnifexes are within 12", and the Tyrant guard squad and so on and so forth. Even with faith points invulnerable thingies you're not going to outlast in that.

No list will always beat any list in 40k barring slowed crap. But the odds here are heavily in Zilla's favor, mostly because sisters are not a top tier army and their optimal range is "too close" to Tyranids. You get one round of shooting and then you get assaulted - and somehow you guys seem to think that sisters are better than nids in assault. Unfortunately, eviscerators are S6 and two-handed, and sisters are WS3 (or 4 for some) S3 with one attack.

Another use of Divine Guidance, also they can boast thier STR is they want to. Considering most pure sisters armies have an upwards of 10+ faith points, it's worth burning 2 to kill a Carnie.



I would respectfully disagree there. Sisters have enough small arms fire and flamers that can take down those numbers. The Flyrant would be a little more difficult for them but not game breaking.



Problem with that arguement is that a half-decent SOB player wouldn't put themselves in that position. He will try to isolate and take down your quicker models first, then move on to your Carnies that he has been nickle and dimeing with his Exorcists. Not all of their weapons are short ranged either, you are still going to have to close the distance through enemy firepower. Then try and assault transports with whatever you have left if they didn't already get the drop on you.



Nobody argued that Sisters are better in CC than the Tyranids just the Carnifexes. If you think that Sisters are only getting one turn of shooting you haven't played against a good SOB player. SOB might not be one of the "optimixed lists" but they are pretty competitve and IMHO a top tier army, if you got the army dynamics down. If a player can master when and how to use faith, that army can seriously put a hurting on a lot of things. I see CaptK consistanly beat Mech. Tau, Lysander Wings, Drop Pod heavy Space Marines, and Chaos.

My guess Longshot is that you have never really faced a competent SOB player. I am sure other experienced SOB players on this board can attest to the damage potential that SOB can inflict on a Nidzilla list...especially in assault against the slower bugs (which is you meat and potatoes in that list). If need be, vs. a carnifex, I could shoot just the HF, the Meltagun and the Plasma pistol, then charge into combat. Once there, I have several options to eliminate a carnifex. Operating under the assumption that I placed a wound on the carnifex in the shooting phase that leaves me with the means to inflict 3 more...which is easily possible in a close combat. Divine Guidance and Hand of theEmperor should be able to knock the carnifex down. With basic sisters, I need 6's to wound anyways so by using divine guidance, it makes those wounds count for something. If I choose to boost their strength they now need 5's and 6's with normal sisters (assuming the fex is only T6) and the eviserator will be getting 3 attacks at Str8. So at the end of that combat that should be enough to kill it. Against a flying tyrant I would be using spirit of the martyr to reduce the number of casualties i'd be taking while letting the eviserator slowly grind the tyrant down. However, I would not try to place a unit like that in the way of one. That is what some of the other units would be relegated to. If at all possible a flying tyrant would be dealt with in the shooting phase.

Like Mahu said it is a stupid argument to say that a Nidzilla list will always own an SOB list.

Capt K

Spending 3 faith points to kill a 113 point carnifex. Genius.

I think what I said was most Nidzilla lists will almost always own any SOB list. If I didn't, let me amend my statement to say that. Because I don't think I said always anywhere.

What's stupid is thinking you have enough faith points to use two on every squad for every turn of the game, killing 113 point carnifexes. If you kill all three dakkafexes you've made 336 points, and that will take your entire army's faith points probably twice over.

It's also absolutely nuts to think you'll even get to finesse around with your rhinos. Somehow we're operating under the mistaken assumption that I won't shoot your rhinos before you get to me. Unfortunately your rhinos have to be within 24" to get to engage, and any time a rhino gets within 24" it dies the next turn.

Beating the armies you mentioned, Mahu, has absolutely nothing in common with Nidzilla. None of those armies are even remotely close in playstyle. Killing T4 3+ save and T4 2+ save guys is much different than killing T6 guys.

You guys keep acting like the sisters can pick and choose their targets, also. That's ridiculous. Dakkafexes do 2 glancing hits on rhinos each.

If you're in a rhino you have to kill the dakkafexes and expend all your resources to prevent them from mugging you. You also cannot just run around killing the little bugs at your leisure because they are protected by the big bugs.

If you try to drive your rhino around a dakkafex you are going to get exploded.

I may not have played a good sisters army, but I have played my bug list against armies with lots of vehicles. Any army that consists mainly of rhinos and predators is going to have a crazy hard time against Godzilla. They are simply too easy to kill and leave your girls stranded.

Walking sisters would be a much tougher fight because they have to spend fewer faith points to protect themselves from the Flyrant, but even then I think Zilla's range+mobility (Move and shoot 18" vs. move and shoot 12") would win the game.