Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A 10 man squad is also a lot less mobile, can't take table quarters and is a lot more dead weight. A razorback can take table quarters, tank shock, AND deliver the troops inside to within rapid fire range.

Thus you choose mobility or survivability. In some worlds that is called choice.

Anyone that is intelligent also knows that theory hammer is only part of the equation.
In theory harlequins are very good. On the tabletop I have seen few even make it to CC without being wiped out.

Anyone that has taken even a basic statistic course knows they can lie.

Posted By Buoyancy on 05/30/2007 2:52 PM

Posted By puree on 05/30/2007 1:57 PM
Needing 10 men to get a lascannon and having no choice are not the same thing.

Unless you plan to use powerfists against skimmers, then lascannons are strictly necessary. Thus there's no choice in the matter. Your tactical squads will be 10 strong unless you are planning to lose your games on purpose.

Last I checked tac squads weren't the only source of lascannons (or AT in more general terms). I can't quite remember the points cost,  but doesn't a razorback with lascanon give you a better lascannon for about the same points.

There is plenty of choice, attack bikes, speeders, preds, devs termies, all can do AT.
<em />

Just FYI, I have a BS in Economics. You know what a real sign of the uneducated is, ad hominem attacks instead of real arguments.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/30/2007 2:12 PM
You see, having a mc'd plasma pistol is a no-brainer option!  Why wouldn't you mc a plasma pistol.  How does removing wargear translate into the dumbing down of the 40k hobby?

Uh, yeah, ok. Durr. Actually, this explains a lot, especially if you think an MC'd plasma pistol is SUCH a no-brainer option. How, exactly, is removing options *not* dumbing down 40k (the game, not the "hobby", something altogether broader and vastly more enjoyable).

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/30/2007 2:12 PM
And please, please prove the DA codex "sucks ass."  Asmodai went 4-2-1 with it.  My last three games I've gone 1-1-1 with it.  Another poster went 5-1-1 with a Ravenwing force at a couple RT's.  So please, explain to me how it "sucks ass."  Have you ever played with it?  Against it?

Now this is funny. Because it does? We all know how you and Toreador love DA, you can't tell us enough how awesome they are, all the time! And gosh, they are so great! Strange, everyone else I talk to, including my local group of veteran wargamers (all 20+ year old adults), universally think the list sucks ass. Imaginary (and completely irrevelant) RTT results notwithstanding.

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/30/2007 2:12 PM
And Nyarly, you are the biggest hypocrite.  You call MY posts idiotic and condensending when yours add nothing but hatred and vitriol towards anyone who dares to disagree with you.  Thank god you're not in my gaming group, anyone with your attitude would get ridiculed back into their parent's basement.

Yawn. We call you on your broad, unfounded generalizations and suddenly it's "Oh noes! Big Bad Nyarly! Blah, blah, blah!" Good god, get over yourself. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. 

Posted By Toreador on 05/30/2007 2:22 PM
nyarlathotep667 It's all about the options. Librarians and Chaplains are limited now in options to make character selection a little less of an obvious choice. It's not about being game breaking, it's about making each character more competitive with each other. There are benefits and penalties to each choice, where in the old dex why not take a chaplain over a commander?

The Company Master of the DW in DA IS the guy wearing the terminator armour. The other Company Masters do not. Thus only one can take terminator armour. If you notice in BA, a Company Master CAN take terminator armour.

What options? They're all the same, practically. Or you are shoe-horned into a special character that has little to no options at all. Gosh, if you want a non-lib/chappy HQ character in terminator armor, you have one choice: Belial. Your only choice is what does he getSword of Silence, Paired Lightning Claws or Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield?!? Wow! That's option-rific! Oh and it's so fluffy that DW is always, always, always led by it's company master! Ugh.

No, if anything, character selection is now even more obviously slanted. How is removing options, forcing particular selections and/or drastically limiting what options are available (re: Belial) make more choices available? Huh? Are you intentionally being obtuse here? Seriously? Cookie cutter characters are about options? Squads that you are forced to take vet sgts with always? Extra "options" thrown in (for a slightly added cost)?  

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/30/2007 3:24 PM
Just FYI, I have a BS in Economics. You know what a real sign of the uneducated is, ad hominem attacks instead of real arguments.

Like all of your own excessive ad hominem attacks?

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/30/2007 3:21 PM

Posted By Buoyancy on 05/30/2007 3:13 PM

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/30/2007 3:03 PM
The MC re-roll you can use in the assault phase too (as long as you didn't use it in the shooting phase.

Sure, if you for some strange reason, don't want your commander to use his power weapon when attacking.

The re-roll lets you re-roll a missed to-hit.  He can't actually use the plasma pistol in combat, all hits are with the power weapon.  If you want to discuss this one further, we can move it to YMTC, but I don't want to clog this thread.

Are you serious? Ok, genius, if he can't actually use the plasma pistol in combat, how does he get to use it's ability to re-roll a missed hit? Feel free to continue this on in YMTC (where this rightly belongs). Or are you going to say "we misinterpreted" you?

Like what, calling you a hypocrite. That's not an ad hominem attack, that's truth. I wasn't using it to undermine your points, just saying those who live in glass houses.... you know the rest.

So you know what ad hominem means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem Look at that, I've managed a logic and a vocabulary lesson for Nyarl today.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Buoyancy on 05/30/2007 3:13 PM

Sure, it gives you a choice if you fall into that class of mouthbreathers that doesn't know anything about statistics. A razorback is nowhere near as survivable as a five man squad of marines, let alone a 10 man squad. A 10 man squad with plasma gun and lascannon has an 89% chance to glance or penetrate a razorback every turn. The same squad will only kill 2 marines per turn.

A couple of posts ago you were on about needing the 10 man lascannon squads for AT duty, why would the lascannon razorback be getting in a pissing match with infantry.

Not to mention your maths is poor, the las/plas has the following (rounded) chance of glancing/penetrate per turn.
range 25"+ = 55%
range 13-24" = 70%
range 0-12" = 80%

The razorback has a 74% chance of same across its entire range + it can move to get the shot or if it is slightly out of range. It  doesn't even risk overheating itself either.

You might want to check your statistics before 'mouthbreathing'.

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/30/2007 3:24 PM
Just FYI, I have a BS in Economics. You know what a real sign of the uneducated is, ad hominem attacks instead of real arguments.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Woopie!  Your appeal to false authority won't win you any debate points either!

Neither will your association with customization = power gaming.  You're been completely drawn the wrong conclusion from my posts if you're getting that out of them.

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/30/2007 3:37 PM
Like what, calling you a hypocrite. That's not an ad hominem attack, that's truth.

Being pedantic, but truth of the personal remark doesn't mean its not an ad hominen, the fact that the something about the person was brought into it is what counts, though that doesn't necessarily make it an ad hominen either. Effective Ad hominen attacks will often be based upon a reasonably truthful comment about the person - if it is truthful it is more likely to be accepted.

I'm not drawing any conclusions from your posts. Go back and re-read mine. I said "Most of the whining I've hear..." That is not in reference to you specifically. And the post you quoted above wasn't even directed at you, it was directed at Buoyancy and his ducking of our questions with personal attacks.

I understand your position. You feel that losing the ability to hyper-customize characters detracts from the codex. I disagree and feel that what it mostly did was remove no-brainer options and abusable builds. I feel that players who customize their characters for fluff reasons won't much care if the bionics and purity seals they've modeled onto their hero has no "in-game" effect. I still use my own Interrogator-Chaplain Ignatius in my DA army, even if he doesn't have the same load out he did in 3rd ed. I don't need wargear to customize the characters, I just use my imagination.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Puree, I agree  I wasn't using the truth of his character to deny his argument; I was using it to tell him to stop attacking me as doing so was hypocritical.

I don't need to attack Nyarl personally to disprove his arguments.  He has already said that the DA codex sucks ass cause he and his friends say so. 

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/30/2007 4:18 PM
I understand your position. You feel that losing the ability to hyper-customize characters detracts from the codex. I disagree and feel that what it mostly did was remove no-brainer options and abusable builds. I feel that players who customize their characters for fluff reasons won't much care if the bionics and purity seals they've modeled onto their hero has no "in-game" effect. I still use my own Interrogator-Chaplain Ignatius in my DA army, even if he doesn't have the same load out he did in 3rd ed. I don't need wargear to customize the characters, I just use my imagination.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Thank you for your clarifications.  Sometimes it's hard to tell who's talking to who when you can't talk to someone personally.

My big complaint isn't just supered up characters (which always die anyways no matter how much you protect them).  I like a variety of vet sgts as they do most the fighting anyways and really make a unit stand out. But mostly, I'm going to miss making a variety of units since most options have been cut down.  That part bugs me the most as I want my forces to stand out, and that's not going to  happen anymore.  After a while one or two types of armies lists will bubble to the top when a paired down codex comes out (Mech eldar for example) and I contend it's inevitable since there will be so few ways to spend your points.

No problem, glad I could clarify (I don't want everyone here yelling at me ).

I never really modified my Vet Sgts much, mostly stuck to powerfists and such, so I can't really comment. All I know is that I really enjoy the new DA codex. I've been playing them for 12 years and for the first time in a long time, they feel right. Will I lose to Nidzillas, 3-Falcon Eldar, and IW? You bet! But no one in the local group here plays those forces (and I feel their days are numbered, except maybe 3-falcon Eldar) and all of the games so far with my DA have been a blast.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/30/2007 4:22 PM
Puree, I agree  I wasn't using the truth of his character to deny his argument; I was using it to tell him to stop attacking me as doing so was hypocritical.

I don't need to attack Nyarl personally to disprove his arguments.  He has already said that the DA codex sucks ass cause he and his friends say so. 

Who is being the hypocrite here? Oh, of course your personal attacks are ok, completely justifiable, and not at all hypocritical. Just like the DA codex rocks because you and your friends say so, right? Hurrr. Or how, when called to task to answer your own ridiculous generalizations you dodge them with attacks of your own (or with nonsensical backpedaling about "misinterpreting" or some other nonsense) .  Yeah!

 

You're right, Nyarl, you've shown me the light. How can I aspire to be like you, game like you, and join your well-informed gaming group of enlightened individuals. Plus, you have cool emoticons.

Ok, I'm done with this. I've said my piece, I'm now off work and have better things to do.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Not worth it. Not much of a choice.

I finsihed a campaign that my troops were razorback with T-L Hbolter, 6 guys, plasma, lascannon.
I had th eoption to have two special if I choose

Troops shoot tanks, tanks shoot troops. Worked well. 5 men with what? a plasma gun? l;ascannon?

Again, their limiting options...not a creating them

Damn, I thought I smelled something nasty when I passed by this thread.

Youd think people were talking about politics in here or religion. Nope, just talk about dollies.










In before lock!

But these are SERIOUS DOLLIES!!!!1!11! *gnashes teeth*








Personally, I think we should nuke it from orbit to be sure.

And agree or disagree, it is the sign of the times.

Tactical squads in the 6 man las/plas config were pretty much doing too much duty. By optimizing how much AT you took in troops you didn't really need devs, or a lot of other heavy weapons. Now you have to think twice before you take that choice. They didn't like how that worked out, and the armies that were showing on the field because of it. They are choosing to change it.

And people will defend their toys, hobbies and beer unto death!

Posted By Toreador on 05/30/2007 3:18 PM
So just because we play DA makes us less intelligent? Nice...

No, you're less intelligent because you refuse to accept the glaringly obvious fact that the DA Codex is numerically inferior in nearly every way to the SM codex. Any list that you can make using the DA Codex can be made more powerfully using the SM Codex for the same point cost.

Terminators are still a nice option. Even the threat of them dropping first turn can change an opponents strategy.

Sure, they are useful if your opponent is clueless. And any opponent that is worried about terminators with one heavy weapon dropping on the first turn is clearly clueless.

how is trying to make marines, which fight within the codex astartes (sans the wolves and such) fight at the limits they were supposed to be? you NEVER see a full 100 man space marine army in a game (of normal point values). and its assumed that unless in an emergency that the whole company would never be used in combat at the whole time. i've given this thought tonight, and i would assume that marines have different "lines" when it comes to squads. there will always be a best and worst squad. so its assumed that the best marines would be given line duty, while the others work as a reserve role. when a marine from the B line drops, a marine from D line will move up to fill his place.

all this banter is pointless, as what anyone says here won't effect GWs decision the slightest. i played against a dark angels army today, and it wasn't "shat" as you say at all.

how are you able to determine that a codex is worthless anyways huh? did the gods give you the gift of codex-assessor-of-the-galaxy or something? just because you can't break the list anymore doesn't mean its crap.

this is a pointless thread, and should be locked. its like debating R and P, you're not going to change anyones minds, let it die.

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/30/2007 3:21 PM

Haha, how could I prove my win/loss record?!?  Do you want a signed affidavit from my opponents?

That's not necessary, but what is necessary is that the results be provided by a disinterested third party who is in charge of officially gathering them.

Once again, statistics fail you.  That doesn't take into account scenarios, objectives, mobility, or any of the other variables that might come up in a game.

Don't tell me you're one of those fools who actually believes that there's tactical complexity in W40K.

Again, you can't make a point without insulting me or other posters.

I see no reason to avoid insulting people who make it painfully clear that they aren't intelligent enough to belong in a debate.

Posted By Toreador on 05/30/2007 3:22 PM
A 10 man squad is also a lot less mobile, can't take table quarters and is a lot more dead weight.< A razorback can take table quarters, tank shock, AND deliver the troops inside to within rapid fire range.

A razorback is a dedicated transport, it cannot take table quarters. Please learn your rules. A 10 man squad might be less mobile, but since a Razorback will spend the entire game immobile without extra armour that doesn't actually matter. The 10 man squad is also still more durable than the vehicle.

Anyone that is intelligent also knows that theory hammer is only part of the equation.

In a 40K shooting match, theory hammer completely and perfectly describes the expected outcomes. To claim otherwise is pure idiocy.

In theory harlequins are very good. On the tabletop I have seen few even make it to CC without being wiped out.

Yes, I'm well aware from other threads that you play opponents who are so pathetic that they don't put their Harlequins into Falcons. You don't need to remind us of that all the time.

Anyone that has taken even a basic statistic course knows they can lie.

Probabilities do not lie, which is proof that you have not taken, or at least have not understood any kind of basic statistics course.

Posted By Buoyancy on 05/30/2007 8:43 PM

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/30/2007 3:21 PM

Haha, how could I prove my win/loss record?!?  Do you want a signed affidavit from my opponents?

That's not necessary, but what is necessary is that the results be provided by a disinterested third party who is in charge of officially gathering them.

Once again, statistics fail you.  That doesn't take into account scenarios, objectives, mobility, or any of the other variables that might come up in a game.

Don't tell me you're one of those fools who actually believes that there's tactical complexity in W40K.

Again, you can't make a point without insulting me or other posters.

I see no reason to avoid insulting people who make it painfully clear that they aren't intelligent enough to belong in a debate.

so in other words, you want him to have a videotape of his games to prove his win/loss record? how ridiculous. i only hope you don't take this game that seriously...

also, how is his argument NOT intelligent? he has listed his reasons and explained his thought pattern on the subject. all you seem to be doing is acting like a spoiled 15 year old that is mad because he isn't pleased with a new toy. im sorry, but grow up.

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/30/2007 3:24 PM
Just FYI, I have a BS in Economics.

Sure you do. You know, if you're going to lie about having a degree, you might as well pick a degree that has some value, instead of a pseudoscience.

You know what a real sign of the uneducated is, ad hominem attacks instead of real arguments.

You might have a point if I was attacking you instead of attacking your arguments. What I'm actually doing is attacking your arguments and insulting you for the fun of it since you are clearly either a fanboy or a GW plant.

Code Corsica. Repeat: Code Corsica.

(delete this post)

Posted By puree on 05/30/2007 3:40 PM
A couple of posts ago you were on about needing the 10 man lascannon squads for AT duty, why would the lascannon razorback be getting in a pissing match with infantry.

Why? Because the standard loadout for all marine squads is marines + plasma gun + lascannon. Thus that is what gets used against other marines. I am, after all, assuming that your opposition is competent enough to pick the best options.

Not to mention your maths is poor, the las/plas has the following (rounded) chance of glancing/penetrate per turn.
range 25"+ = 55%
range 13-24" = 70%
range 0-12" = 80%

Would you care to explain to us all how you managed to take (2/3)*(1/2) (which equals the chance of a damaging hit on AV 11 with a plasma gun between 13"-24"), and come up with 1/6 (0.15)? Because the actual answer is 1/3. Would you then care to explain how you managed to add an additional plasma gun shot and have that shot have a worse chance of damaging the tank than the shot before it? You'll note, that 80-70=10, while 70-55=15. Getting two different results for two identical calculations should be a pretty big tip-off that you're doing something wrong.

Posted By commisar-Kaine on 05/30/2007 8:51 PM

so in other words, you want him to have a videotape of his games to prove his win/loss record? how ridiculous. i only hope you don't take this game that seriously...

How is it ridiculous? You aren't telling me that you are so naive that you actually believe him when he provided those statistics?  Unless you're opponent in a debate can support their evidence, then it is always assumed that they are lying.  That's a basic principle of any discussion when you are dealing with fanatics.

also, how is his argument NOT intelligent? he has listed his reasons and explained his thought pattern on the subject.

His argument is not intelligent because it is dependent on anecdotes that are almost certainly complete fabrications, and because he refuses to use statistics to provide evidence to back up his claims. If a person can't avoid anecdotes, or at least admit that they are anecdotes and therefore worthless in any argument, then they aren't particularly intelligent. If a person can't use basic math, or at least understand and accept the basic math provided by people who can use it, then they also aren't particularly intelligent.

Holy crap you kids are precious. I want to make a desk calendar featuring a unique Space Marine rumours post and kitten stock photo for each day.

PRECIOUS.

Just for fun. Hey bouyancy, please prove to me that you are not in fact a 12 year old girl getting her period for the first time. Come on, I want to see some proof!

Oh and Triggerbaby, that is the funniest thing I have ever seen.  My fiance (though I'm sure buoyancy will want proof of her existence) is wondering why the hell I'm laughing so hard when she knows I'm at a GW forum.

Ozymandias, King of Kings