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Here we come to the dilemma. someone answer this if they can.

from Gw perspectives.
1. They must safeguard their IP.
2. The main problem is german law and untransferable artisitic right. Unberreicht (sp) or whatever.


So if the artisitc right is so untransferable, how does it globally compromise IP if it is specifically permitted by GW. Gw has the rights, the video game prioducerrs have purchased licences, and through a validated Damnatus, Mr Hu would have rights. But Mr Hu cannot sell those rights, transfer those rights give them away, use them for toilet paper etc etc etc. They live with him, they die with him. So where do GW get threatened.

This was incompetence to begin with, its incompetence now. I see no reason to claim anything other than GW are sticking to their long established legal principle of: 'kick em til they are down, then kick em til they stay down'.

Aw come on folks, ist that hard to understand. The only rights they can´t give away are authorship. Besides that trademarks of GW would not have been touched if GW had made them put their sign under a contract that they accept that the IP behind 40K belongs to GW... yadda yadda yadda.

For the simple ones: The only thing they can´t sell is the authorship, i.e. they will always be the authors of the movie and can´t sell this right to anyone. The can sell the movie to whomever they want and this whomever would have the rights to distribution, etc. IP of GW will not be touched all it takes is to ask Damnatus to sign an aditional contract that they accept GW as the source of their inspiration and do abstain from claiming that the IP to the GW-stuff is theirs.

Hey, we DO have runnung water and electricity over here. We do have a quite healthy music and movie industry. What do you think how they do business. And if they can, why can´t GW.

For the simple ones: The only thing they can´t sell is the authorship, i.e. they will always be the authors of the movie and can´t sell this right to anyone.

That is rather a gross simplification of what the moral right of authorship entails, and completely neglects the eternal control the authors of a work can assert over the distribution, alteration, and continued use of their work.


And, at the end of the day, it IS GW's IP. What compelling business interest do they have in allowing somebody else to use their IP to make a movie (and derive benefits, even if they're non-monetary benefits like increased professional exposure)? Apparently, they've decided that whatever goodwill or marketing advantages allowing the project to go forward do not exceed the potential cost of allowing an outside party to make use of their IP.

Did anyone at Damnatus seek to pay GW for a license to use the IP? Is it cost-prohibitive to do so? Or is it just assumed that a fan-made work shouldn't have to pay for use of the parent IP?

So if the artisitc right is so untransferable, how does it globally compromise IP if it is specifically permitted by GW. Gw has the rights, the video game prioducerrs have purchased licences, and through a validated Damnatus, Mr Hu would have rights. But Mr Hu cannot sell those rights, transfer those rights give them away, use them for toilet paper etc etc etc. They live with him, they die with him. So where do GW get threatened.

You'd have to look more deeply into German copyright law (and ALL other relevant jurisdictions - remember that copyright attaches in EVERY country that recognizes it, if/when the work is distributed there) for the particulars. But it's extremely unlikely that Mr. Hu's rights die with him - copyrights extend far beyond author-death these days.

And, again, the rights that attach actually carry some significance, in terms of governing how the work is used forevermore. It's apparent that someone significant at GW doesn't want to have this perpetual anchor on their IP floating around out there, when they can't control how it's used.

Bash GW for their many stupid business decisions, if you like - White Dwarf as a catalogue, exclusion of veteran input, discontinuation of armies, etc. I have, do, and will continue to speak out when I see something that is egregious. But this isn't one of those cases. Here, I cannot fathom any reason why GW would want to allow a free license for a fan-based work, particularly in light of the on-going issues it will create for them with regards to that work.

We do have a quite healthy music and movie industry. What do you think how they do business. And if they can, why can´t GW.

If someone wants to call them up and offer to pay for a license to the IP, I bet you could find someone over there willing to start a dialogue (but bring your checkbook). That's how business is done. Publicly-traded companies aren't in the business of giving away their core assets.

*edit: Switched old-style (broken) quote tags to italic.

Dakka should make a movie based on the legal woes of Damnatus and GW. That would be as entertaining as this thread...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I get to play the bad guy. Centurian99 will be my right-hand and cheif henchman. But see the Evil Overlord list - I won't be saddled with the common errors! Only uncommon errors for THIS Dark Lord of IP.

Posted By Janthkin on 11/09/2007 4:37 PM

If someone wants to call them up and offer to pay for a license to the IP, I bet you could find someone over there willing to start a dialogue (but bring your checkbook). That's how business is done. Publicly-traded companies aren't in the business of giving away their core assets.

Brutal in its simplicity.

Posted By Duncan_Idaho on 11/09/2007 3:19 PM
Aw come on folks, ist that hard to understand. The only rights they can´t give away are authorship. Besides that trademarks of GW would not have been touched if GW had made them put their sign under a contract that they accept that the IP behind 40K belongs to GW... yadda yadda yadda.

...

...

There you have the crux of the matter.

GW does not want unauthorised authors authoring material.

Pariah Press wrote:

Posted By Xerxes on 11/06/2007 6:41 AM
Sooooo, if German law would make GW "lose" the 40k IP if Damnatus was released, why can Star Wars and Star Trek fan works be made in Germany?

  There are huge swathes of Star Trek IP that Paramount (or whatever holding company it is) simply no longer controls due to the proliferation of fan works in the 70s and 80s.  People publish and profit from Trek fan works and Paramount does nothing because they basically failed to do anything in the 70s, so now it's too late.  A good example is the "Ships of the Star Fleet" book series. 

I couldn't agree more!! It would REALLY be too bad if it got 'leaked' and ended up on utube or something similar! I've been a loyal GW fan for a LONG time, but this is as stupid as them informing everyone that getting a tattoo of GW imagery was a violation of the law a few years ago. Apparently, much like professional sports, here in the states, they forgot that without thier fans, they are nothing....

J'santai Khan wrote:I couldn't agree more!! It would REALLY be too bad if it got 'leaked' and ended up on utube or something similar! I've been a loyal GW fan for a LONG time, but this is as stupid as them informing everyone that getting a tattoo of GW imagery was a violation of the law a few years ago. Apparently, much like professional sports, here in the states, they forgot that without thier fans, they are nothing....

For reasons covered adequately earlier in the thread, it would be too bad if this was leaked. GW knows who made it, and their legal department is not known for moderation in dealing with intentional and knowing copyright infringement.

Kilkrazy wrote:Hoover the vacuum cleaning company, which let its name become a household term in the UK and lost control of it for Trade Mark purposes.

This was to Hoovers credit, same as Biro. In both cases the company name became synonymous with the general product classification. Company marketing managers would give their employees right hands for that level of coverage.

Janthkin wrote:

J'santai Khan wrote:I couldn't agree more!! It would REALLY be too bad if it got 'leaked' and ended up on utube or something similar! I've been a loyal GW fan for a LONG time, but this is as stupid as them informing everyone that getting a tattoo of GW imagery was a violation of the law a few years ago. Apparently, much like professional sports, here in the states, they forgot that without thier fans, they are nothing....

For reasons covered adequately earlier in the thread, it would be too bad if this was leaked. GW knows who made it, and their legal department is not known for moderation in dealing with intentional and knowing copyright infringement.

I realize...... but you can't tell me you don't want to see it, can you?

Orlanth wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Hoover the vacuum cleaning company, which let its name become a household term in the UK and lost control of it for Trade Mark purposes.

This was to Hoovers credit, same as Biro. In both cases the company name became synonymous with the general product classification. Company marketing managers would give their employees right hands for that level of coverage.

Which marketing managers are you talking about? The name Hoover is now worthless, because any company can now create (in the UK) a vacuum cleaner and call it a Hoover vaccuum.

Centurian99 wrote:
Which marketing managers are you talking about? The name Hoover is now worthless, because any company can now create (in the UK) a vacuum cleaner and call it a Hoover vaccuum.

Xerox spent many, many thousands of dollars pulling their trademark back from the brink of generic. And Google actively fights against the attempt to use "google" as a verb. Rollerblade and Kleenex have fought similar battles over the years.

Name recognition is a good thing. Having your trademark become synonymous with the product being sold is a very bad thing, from the perspective of a trademark holder. All that effort you put into putting the name out there becomes free advertising for anyone who wishes to market a similar product under the (now generic) name.

Orlanth wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Hoover the vacuum cleaning company, which let its name become a household term in the UK and lost control of it for Trade Mark purposes.

This was to Hoovers credit, same as Biro. In both cases the company name became synonymous with the general product classification. Company marketing managers would give their employees right hands for that level of coverage.

No...

It's why Xerox spent tens of millions of dollars in the 80's and 90's to tell people "It's a photocopy, not a Xerox. You make a photocopy on a Xerox brand machine." in order to preserve their company name. It worked for them. Xerox is still a trademark and most people talk about photocopies and not Xeroxes these days.

IBM also faced this problem and again spent millions to ensure that the generic term was 'PC' and not 'IBM'.


EDIT: What Janthkin said.

What would happen if the film makers bring the actors back in and over dub their movie to remove as much of the trademarked items as possible? As has been pointed out, 40k is barely distinguishable from public domain as it is. All that needs to be changed are the identifiers that link specifically to the 40k Universe. So for instance:

Space Marines become Astro Soldiers
Imperium becomes Domain of Man
Chaos becomes Corruption
etc etc

A few small changes might be able to make it into a movie similar in genre but not in exact substance to the 40k world. So be it. It's not the same, but would that allow them to show their work with a little more effort?

I think the look of 40K is more distinctive than the names.

GW does not own the concept Gothic setting, besides the Imperium bears very strong resemblance to other fictional universes, especially Asimov's Foundation series, the De Laurentis film version of Dune, in some ways Herbert's Dune, pretty much all the classic Jules Verne tech, Flash Gordon, the list goes on.

Its not the 'look of 40K', its the specific technologies that will cause problems. The post production team went to great lengths to recreate Imperium vehicles and spacecraft, and they could not be waved away as generic. The designs for the Cobra, Basilisk and Valkyrie, as seen in the trailer are clearly IP of GW, as are the iconography of the Adeptus Mechanicus etc. Too much would been to be removed to make the film generic.

By "look" I meant the specific equipment and vehicle designs, which -- to GW's credit -- have pretty clear design themes running through them.

GW of course were strongly "inspired" by a range of existing SF and fantasy literature/movies in creating the 40K universe. Unless they are challenged on it by the original copyright holders (let's suppose the estate of Robert Heinlein for example), their copyrights and TMs stand and Damnatus is still a derivative work.

I doubt GW can be successfully challenged or it would have been done already. And if they were challenged and fell, Damnatus would fall too because it would be a derivative of a derivative work.

I still say the Damnatus crew's best next step would be to make an original SF movie using the skills and experience they took from this unsuccessful effort.

Ebon wrote:What would happen if the film makers bring the actors back in and over dub their movie to remove as much of the trademarked items as possible? As has been pointed out, 40k is barely distinguishable from public domain as it is. All that needs to be changed are the identifiers that link specifically to the 40k Universe. So for instance:

Space Marines become Astro Soldiers
Imperium becomes Domain of Man
Chaos becomes Corruption
etc etc

A few small changes might be able to make it into a movie similar in genre but not in exact substance to the 40k world. So be it. It's not the same, but would that allow them to show their work with a little more effort?

From what I've seen of Damnatus, the amazingly accurate costumes are the best thing about it. The film would be dull without them.

And I doubt the Damnatus guys would really want to have years on this, only to change the very essence of the film due to legal problems. If they can't make the film they originally set out to make (which they can't), then they shouldn't make the film at all.

Also, I doubt as much as a quarter of the original audience would bother watching it if it went through those minor changes. It might be the same film, but people would just not be bothered if it didn't have the recognisable names.

EDIT- spelling.

[quote=fourganger88

...

...

Also, I doubt as much as a quarter of the original audience would bother watching it if it went through those minor changes. It might be the same film, but people would just not be bothered if it didn't have the recognisable names.

EDIT- spelling.