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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Bournemouth, UK

On the BBC news website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7010484.stm


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Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

GW possibly lied here, they said there was a misunderstanding after telling the Damnatus production team to stop, wheras I heard the film was reviewed in White Dwarf. Any confirmation on that.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

BBC.com, banned in Red China.

 
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Covina, California

I am disgusted with two of my favorite organizations now, Games Workshop and the great nation of Deutschland.

Orks are like those neighbor children who aren't invited to your parties and they come right in anyway.

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95th Krieg 'Blackguard' 3000pts
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Made in fi
Been Around the Block




Sooooo, if German law would make GW "lose" the 40k IP if Damnatus was released, why can Star Wars and Star Trek fan works be made in Germany?

What I heard was that the order to ban Damnatus came past the GW lawyers themselves, from management. And as we can see, GW's legal dept is led by Andy Jones, an ex design studio member IIRC. So I think we just have a case of management incompetence, business as usual.
   
Made in id
Lurking Gaunt





For Kyoto and other dirty commie spies on Dakka:

A copyright row means that one of the most ambitious fan films ever made may never be shown before an audience.

Four years in the planning Damnatus, made by German fans of the Warhammer 40,000 game, cost more than 10,000 euros, took months to film, employs 11 principal actors, dozens of extras and sophisticated post-production special effects. Now finished the film runs to 110 minutes.

But Huan Vu, director and producer of the movie, said Damnatus' creators have now given up trying to get the film in front of an audience.

Nottingham-based Games Workshop created Warhammer 40,000 - a science fiction wargame which revolves around battles fought between factions and races that populate the universe in the 41st century. It is an outgrowth of the Warhammer tabletop game created by Games Workshop in 1983.

Mr Vu said that, despite lengthy negotiations with Games Workshop, the company has refused to give permission for the film to be shown.

"It's really horrible for an artist not being able to show off their own work," Mr Vu told the BBC News website.

Owner occupier

German copyright law lies at the heart of the dispute between Games Workshop and the Damnatus creators.

Andy Jones, legal and licensing head for Games Workshop, said this law confers rights on the creators of works that cannot be given away.

This means that the creators of Damnatus cannot assign their rights to Games Workshop even if they wanted to.

But by sanctioning the release of the film without this "assignment" Games Workshop would essentially be giving up the title to the Warhammer 40,000 intellectual property.

In a lengthy response explaining the ban on Damnatus Mr Jones wrote: "To lose control of Warhammer or Warhammer 40,000 is simply unthinkable.

"So we must be vigilant, and perhaps sometimes seemingly heartless in our decisions to safeguard the IP for the future success of the business and the hobby."

A misunderstanding meant that filming on Damnatus continued after Games Workshop had asked Mr Vu and his colleagues to stop.

Mr Vu said the Damnatus team was "shocked" when it learned of the ban but even when they found out about it thought that an amicable solution could be reached.

"I imagined that in the end I would be forced to sign some more or less 'fair' contract in which I'd have to give them all rights bar the unalienable ones, but to get this film out I'd underwritten everything," he said.

Copy control

Dr Guido Westkamp, a lecturer on intellectual property law at the University of London, said copyright cases were always tricky to resolve.

"It's very much a question of looking in total at the work in question and then perhaps to look at the technical features in that work," he said.

But, he added, a question like the dispute between the Damnatus creators and Games Workshop was unprecedented.

"It's not come before German courts before at all," he said.

"But," he added, "it's one that really affects new technology."

This also meant that it would be unclear what would happen if the case did come before the courts.

"We have little guidance," he said, "It's just case law."

Mr Vu said the Damnatus creators have tried everything to reach a deal with Games Workshop including setting up online petitions and asking other Warhammer players to let the game maker know how they feel at the fan events it runs around the world.

The Damnatus team have also explored releasing the film in a different format or changing it to see if this would escape the copyright problems.

"But," said Mr Vu, "we do not really want to get away from the 40k universe - the film is meant as a dedication to it after all."

Mr Jones said despite Games Workshop's "admiration" for Damnatus it could not change its policy and allow the film to be shown.

He said Games Workshop was not acting "malevolently" but that this was a case where an agreement has "failed to be reached".

Said Mr Jones: "This is perhaps to be regretted, nonetheless in the final analysis we simply have no choice but to say 'no'."
   
Made in de
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Augsburg/Germany

Actually that´s shoddy research on German copyright law. It would have been possible.

André Winter
L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio 
   
Made in us
Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

Ick more about reminding me about wasting a long wait for this movie.

Regardless about GW legal matters, I am bitter about it. It smacks of bad taste on the part of GW.

Also, I feel it is a direct reflection on how GW treat their consumers as a whole.

Thank goodness there are other, better games than GW out there. I still love the 40K universe, but I abhor GW.

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Couldn't GW make everyone who did the film contractors/employees. The work product of their work would be the GW's. Make a few "edits" and voila instant GW product.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

I expect GW didn't want this film published and just cocked up the process of killing it.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in fi
Been Around the Block




I'll say again, GW's legal department is headed by Andy Jones. It's a good old boys' club. Competence is likely not a qualifying trait.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Regardless of who is in charge it is unlikely that GW do not consult proper lawyers when they need to.

(As someone who works in a big company with a legal department, I can tell you that our properly qualified lawyers regularly call in expert opinions.)


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We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in ie
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

Really, really sucks for the Damnatus guys. Imagine all that work for nothing.

   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Could be that maybe GW is in talks of putting together a real hollywood 40K film and don't want this fan film messing things up. Or it could be that the movie is just boring and stupid and horribly acted like most indie films are and they don't want their name on it.

GW could easily just have all rights signed over to them and sell it in a cheapy reproduced DVD off the website and not give the filmmakers a dime

It is pretty sucky of GW to just pull the plug and I'm sure that if the folks that made it really wanted to they could get real lawyers into it and find a loophole that will allow it to be shown.. but it's I guess they figure it's not worth the effort. But the first time GW told em no, they should have stopped instead of wasting more time and resources.

What they should have done is just made it and stuck it up on Youtube and the web for download without even asking and when GW yells at em just say "Gee we made a fan film just like all those trekkie and comic book folks do, we didn't know we weren't allowed" .. and it'll last a couple weeks before the plug is pulled, and by that time plenty of folks will have downloaded it and if it's good it would get spread all over by fans and the guys that made it could be like "Gee, we can't help it if the fans love it and are spreading it all over the internet, we took it off our site just like you asked".

 
   
Made in gb
Dangerous Skeleton Captain






They should just get a contact in the Netherlands to put up a torrent of it somewhere. Then they can express outrage at how the copy was leaked online, but as everyone knows, once something gets on the interwebs, it *STAYS* on the interweb...

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Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






Maple Valley, Washington, Holy Terra

Posted By Xerxes on 11/06/2007 6:41 AM
Sooooo, if German law would make GW "lose" the 40k IP if Damnatus was released, why can Star Wars and Star Trek fan works be made in Germany?
  There are huge swathes of Star Trek IP that Paramount (or whatever holding company it is) simply no longer controls due to the proliferation of fan works in the 70s and 80s.  People publish and profit from Trek fan works and Paramount does nothing because they basically failed to do anything in the 70s, so now it's too late.  A good example is the "Ships of the Star Fleet" book series. 

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Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Longtime Dakkanaut







I have to say, I fully understand and support Games Workshop in this. Copyright law is tricky, and when the whole basis of your company arises from their IP, you have to vigorously protect it. Once you lose IP rights to anything, it's nearly impossible to get them back.

Duncan Idaho, what are your qualifications to discuss German IP law?

"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Why do you support them in this? This was a joyously bad PR move. Any manner of steps could be taken to prevent IP loss without looking like the rear end of a donkey. 

GW gets minimal publicity. If the only non-internet board publicity is bad publicity "that ain't a good thing."

Edit:

Here's some ideas.

*Hire the guys, make changes sufficient to make the work GW's.

*Don't show it in Germany.

*Travel to GB, officially sell the film and all its rights there.

Come on this is stupid. I work by the former Enron building. Creative attorneys can do anything. I've seen it in action.

 

 

 


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

GW really should just give the people who made the film the money for the cost it took to make.
I am not sure about this next part though, but I beleive the producers of the film can ask for compensation upto what they forked out to produce it, and anything after that cannot be collected as it would then be seriously infringeing on GW's IP.

So GW buys the film for cost plus give Sphaerentor a percentage of any profit and GW can have a nice film they can sell.

If it cost as little as I heard it cost, then if GW distributed this film, it would be nearly pure profit.

I really think there is a way for GW to not look like complete a*$%&*)s here. Wether or not you side with GW, you have to admit this is bad publicity and appears immensely shady..

   
Made in ie
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

Well, the thing is, we don't know what goes on in the film. Perhaps GW would prefer not to be associated with it and therefore don't want the rights.
BUT!
The time for them to tell the Damnatus guys not to go ahead was the first time they were contacted, not after the film is made. That's just sucky!

   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Well, there are two ways of looking at these German guys.

(1) They are righteous dudes who poured their heart, soul and cash into such a top-notch product that GW should be only too glad to give them money.

(2) They were foolish and naive and failed the first test of a film producer, which is to make sure the core idea is yours, so you can money off it.

I don't think it is bad publicity at all for GW to have stopped them. GW would have been complete idiots not to stop them. The next shareholders AGM would sound a lot different if GW had wimped out, given the Germans money or freedom to distribute, and lost control of their core IP because otherwise a bunch of internet fanbois would be flaming them.

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We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Longtime Dakkanaut







Again, unless someone here is a specialist in German IP law, I haven't read anything that would make me question Games Workshops actions in this situation. It's an open question as to whether German courts would ever waive jurisdiction to a foreign court because a sale happened there, when the principal was a german citiizen with all of the labor performed in Germany. The extent of my knowledge of German law is in the area of immigration law, where a buddy of mine is a German citizen despite having lived almost his whole life in the US, simply because his father is a German citizen. He also cannot ever give up his German citizenship. German courts simply do not recognize the declaration of American citizenship that he made when he was 18.

From a professional standpoint (I'm trained as a scriptwriter, and have friends in the industry), it's simply idiotic of the creators of Damnatus to have spent the money that they did and put the work in that they did without first securing the IP license. In fact, I'd use the words "moronic", and "utterly irresponsible" without hesitation.

"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

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Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





Chicago

Just because a bunch of people got together and spent a boatload of their time making a movie about their favourite game doesn't necessarily mean they made a GOOD movie.

I can't imagine that a fan-made film on a very limited budget could properly portray the 40K universe. Prop and set design alone could cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars at least.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Lancaster PA

The article makes a point that in Germany there are certain rights that can never be signed over. It is entirely possible that British (or American, almost as important) law requires those rights for full ownership. In otherwords, if GW can't get those from the company, they don't have all their rights any more in their own country, and thus the sale doesn't work right.
It is a shame that the film can't be shown, but it is absolutely correct that you can't expect a company to have their ideas taken and used without their permission, and then just say "Well, it's kind of neat, why doesn't everyone give that a go?"


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Made in us
Phanobi





Paso Robles, CA, USA

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that GW mentioned that they can't just hire these guys and push the movie itself as they already have an agreement with another company over all movie rights to their IP. Its hard to find fault with GW as their IP is everything to them. In the end, this is just a s***ty situation.

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This conversation has even begun to boggle my internet-hardened mind.

A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy 
   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Longtime Dakkanaut







One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that GW mentioned that they can't just hire these guys and push the movie itself as they already have an agreement with another company over all movie rights to their IP. Its hard to find fault with GW as their IP is everything to them. In the end, this is just a s***ty situation.


If they've already sold the movie rights to another company, than those idiots in Germany are well and truly screwed.

"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

Don't settle for the pewter horde! Visit http://www.bkarmypainting.com and find out how you can have a well-painted army quickly at a reasonable price. 
   
Made in ie
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

I feel sorry for the German guys, because GW should have made it totally clear with them from the start. It was a bit unprofessional of them not too. On the other hand, why go ahead when you don't know for sure?

   
Made in de
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Augsburg/Germany

@Centurian99

1.) Of course you can give up German citizenship, but you need to have lived for quite some time in the other country, at least six years. Besides there is the little difference of being American by being born to american parents and of being German by being born in Germany. There are some mor details involved in this, but this is the general line.

2.) I do know quite some about copyright law since my wife is a professional musician and we had to make sure she had the copyright to her pieces. Besides friends of ours are lawyers who are quite good at it.

3.) They did not sell the rights to any other company. But GW advertised for their film two times in the german version of the White Dwarf.

4.) GW Germany for quite some time acted in a way that everyone would have considered as supporting the project. The only mistake the Damnatus crew made was not getting the support written on paper. On the other hand, advertising of GW in the WD for the movie could bee seen by a judge as supporting it.

André Winter
L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

Couldn't GW make everyone who did the film contractors/employees. The work product of their work would be the GW's. Make a few "edits" and voila instant GW product.


Doubtful. It's well outside my area of expertise, but what I do recall about copyright law in the EU (in general) involves inalieanable, unassignable "moral rights" to a work. In the U.S., you can assign away all rights. In (parts of?) Europe, there are some rights which you can't assign away, period.

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

Wikipedia on Moral Rights of authorship.

Rather US-focused, but the Berne Convention except is notable:
Independently of the author's economic rights, and even after the transfer of the said rights, the author shall have the right to claim authorship of the work and to object to any distortion, mutilation or other modification of, or other derogatory action in relation to, the said work, which would be prejudicial to his honor or reputation.

So, irrespective of any assignment of rights to GW (always assuming they were willing to sign over everything they could, at a price GW was willing to pay - information we lack), GW would still face uncertainty as to how they could use what they "bought." What if an author decided, somewhere down the line, that a GW edited release was a "mutilation" of the original?

No, I'm with Centurian99 on this one. GW can't afford to let other people wander freely through their IP; it's the heart and liver of their company.

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? 
   
 
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