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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/01 19:09:58
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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uh...
"roll to hit as normal" under blast weapons means, and only means, you roll to hit as normal.
Meaning, you roll a die, and compare to a ballistic skill chart to see if you hit.
Everything after that is different, as specified in the blast weapons section (if a hit is scored take the blast marker...)
All it says is "roll to hit as normal". Normal refers to how you roll to hit - vs the ballistic skill. In no way does it refer to the results of what you roll. That is what is being covered by the special blast weapons rule.
This couldn't be simpler or more straightforward. Yes, I know, I am just feeding the troll, but seriously there is no reason to think that anything other than the ROLL is normal, not the results of the roll.
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'12 Tournament Record: 98-0-0 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/01 19:16:29
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I never quite viewed it that way, Nurglitch. I find myself agreeing with your interpretation though, after reading through it twice.
Nurglitch, I'd like to hear your response to those who have brought up the fact that the new biker bases exceed the diameter of a small blast template, if it is at all different than the point you just previously made.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/05/01 19:16:55
And God said unto Abraham, "Take this mighty bolter, my son, and smite thy enemies from afar. Fear not, Emperor protects..er, I mean, well, youknowwhatImean." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/01 19:21:31
Subject: Re:Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Executing Exarch
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@ Nurglitch:
I believe you are incorrect. By your reasoning, you would end up "hitting" more models then were under the template. Lets say for example a marine shoots a frag missile at some guardsmen. He rolls to hit and gets a 5, which hits. So now (by your logic) he has a hit that will allow him a to wound roll later. The the template is placed. For simplicity, lets say it completely covers 2 guardsmen, who by the rules, are hit automaticaly. Now this frag missile has 3 hits and needs to make 3 to wound rolls.
This is obviously not the way the rules work.
The initial to hit roll is to determin if you get to place a blast template or not. The placement and the rolls for partials determine if any models are hit and "to wound" rolls need to be made against them.
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**** Phoenix ****
Threads should be like skirts: long enough to cover what's important but short enough to keep it interesting. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/01 22:13:31
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Once upon a 3rd edition, I recall a FAQ that told us to determine who was hit by the model--with things like bikes, you basically see if the rider is covered, rather than the entire bike.
I realize it's not relevant to the discussion in that it's from the old edition and GW never cleaned up the language (in fact, I think it's the same) between editions.
Running it that way is a more reasonable way, though not technically RAW (but then, RAW allows you to create a base bigger than the templates, which creates a situation where the template only partially covers the model's base, if not the model).
How do folks treat really big monsters--biotitans & greater daemons from Forge World--with oversized bases? It seems silly to say that because the blast doesn't fully cover the creature hit, that it might have missed on a 4+
It seems pretty obvious that the combination of rules makes for some silly situations (mostly stemming from the unlimited base size issue).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/01 22:41:43
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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@Geddinight
I agree...it is extremely dumb to shoot a blast at something, hit it, and then have to roll a 4+ because you only partially hit it because it's base is too big. Extremely dumb. I just think its what the rules say happens.
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'12 Tournament Record: 98-0-0 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/02 00:48:24
Subject: Re:Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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Wow and to think you guys ran four pages of rant over this topic
Roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save or die. Use of blast is to catch other things as well as your target. If somebody wants to agrue out the waszoo because of some wording then smack them with the dreadsock! If they are still moving, smack them again a few more time and get a judge. After which when they wake up, tell them they lost and need to move to the next table. Inform the judge of your bloody victory and move on!
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Biomass
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/02 02:33:02
Subject: Re:Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Tarval wrote:Wow and to think you guys ran four pages of rant over this topic
Roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save or die. Use of blast is to catch other things as well as your target. If somebody wants to agrue out the waszoo because of some wording then smack them with the dreadsock! If they are still moving, smack them again a few more time and get a judge. After which when they wake up, tell them they lost and need to move to the next table. Inform the judge of your bloody victory and move on!
Except it doesn't quite work that way... it should but it doesn't. RAW is infavor with needing to roll partials on larger models. Logically this does not make since, however there is no room for logic in the grim darkness of the far future.
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"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."
-Joseph Stalin
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/02 03:09:41
Subject: Re:Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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So, whats the point of rolling to hit if you have partials? If you fail the partial then you fail to hit but you already rolled to hit and you hit your target.
Roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save or die. KISS.....
Instead of the dreadsock will get the Rulebooksock, though its going to look a little funny
If you think about, you could put standard guards men on MC bases like the poster is talking about and never again have to worry about frag.  then again do you really want to start this type of game play or just accept the fact that you rolled to hit and you hit your target. Now are there any partials in the area?
conscript would just own the boards....We could all play like this but do you really want to go down this path? Go out and buy a 50 pack of CD and then put one conscript on each disk.  Oh you flamed my conscripts and it looks like you got um three total guys touched.
You shoot a frag missle and get a partial on a conscript, oh the iron-----------------------E.
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Biomass
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/02 07:26:33
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The problem with the Conscript example is having to actually model the stupid things.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/02 11:04:28
Subject: Re:Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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As i have already stated this is a minatures wargame, logic HAS NO PLACE HERE!!! From a pure RAW standpoint (which i don't agree with i might add), if you were to shoot a plazma cannon at a space marine attack bike then this would happen: first you roll to see if you can place the template AT ALL, then any modles that are 100% under the template are automatically hit, Then any modles not 100% under the template are hit on a 4+ (those are the rules for blast weapons). So in the case of the attack bike, if a space marine was to shoot a plazma cannon at it the rolles would go as follows. 3+ to place template, then a 4+ to hit any modles not 100% under the template (sadly this does include the model the template was centered on) then a 2+ to wound. Yes i agree its dumb, however thats RAW for you.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/05/02 11:05:23
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."
-Joseph Stalin
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/02 22:36:16
Subject: Re:Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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The only thing I can say is that if somebody wanted to pull this the next time I went to a tourny that allowed it all my conscripts would be on CD bases. I wounder how the judge would rule it then, though raw is raw and I total understand.
I still dont see the roll to place in the book as it is a roll to hit correct me if I am wrong with a page please?
thanks...
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Biomass
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/02 22:59:29
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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It does not say "roll to place" instead of "roll to hit" anywhere.
The issue is that under the normal roll to hit rules, you "roll to hit" and then if you succeed it doesn't say what happens. You just move on to "roll to wound".
In the "Blast Weapons" section, it specifically says what happens after you "roll to hit" - you place the blast template. This is in place of just going straight to "roll to wound" and determines how many (if any) people are hit.
There is no reason that I can see to assume you get one hit automatically. You are just using the blast weapons rules to determine how many hits you get (0, 10, 5,000, whatever) instead of just moving straight on to roll to wound.
The contention, then, is whether or not "roll to hit as normal" means "roll to hit as normal and then also take the normal results of rolling to hit (one hit), PLUS this other stuff about blast templates" or if it means "roll, see if you hit, and if you do determine hits in this special way instead of just automatically getting 1 and moving on"
To me, the wording of the "blast weapons" section makes it obvious that the intention is for the placing of the blast template to replace the normal "you get one hit" assumption. It reads, on page 30:
"If a hit is scored take the Blast Marker and place it over the target unit so that one model is under the hole to see how many models are affected"
You roll to hit - you score a hit based on your ballistic skill. That normally results in "you got a hit! move on!". For Blasts, it does not - instead you follow the placement rules".
I can understand someone arguing that "roll to hit as normal" means "take all the normal results of rolling to hit" but if you insisted it worked that way you would have to give yourself one hit automatically, and then additional hits based on the blast template, as Phoenix pointed out.
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'12 Tournament Record: 98-0-0 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/03 07:24:06
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Exactly if you got 1 auto hit from the roll to hit "If a hit is scored take the Blast Marker and place it over the target unit so that one model is under the hole to see how many models are affected" would mean if there are 2 models 100% under the template you get 3 chances to would (1 from the initial roll to hit, and 2 for being under the template) the issue is that "If a hit is scored take the Blast Marker and place it over the target unit so that one model is under the hole to see how many models are affected" means your roll to hit was to see if you are allowed to place the blast marker. Thats RAW. It doesn't make since but thats it from a 100% RAW POV.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/05/03 07:26:04
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."
-Joseph Stalin
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/04 07:10:07
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Phoenix:
I'm not sure how I'm incorrect. It seems that you believe that my opinion is correct.
Now, what is my opinion? I know I'm not good at writing and communicate in a particularly obtuse and circumspect dialect, but I thought that it was clear what my reasoning was. By my reasoning one cannot hit more models than can end up fully or partially covered by the blast marker.
Take your example of the Marine firing a Frag Missile at a unit of Guardsmen. You roll to hit and get a 5 - the unit of Guardsmen is hit. By "my logic", or at least that silly little piece of reasoning I'm obviously incapable of communicating, the unit has been hit at least once. The marker is placed over a model and additional hits are worked out depending on whether models are completely covered by the marker or partially covered by the marker. Let's say that it completely covers two Guardsmen, including the one whose base is under the hole of the marker. The Frag Missile has caused two hits in total, the one hit by the to hit roll, and the additional one completely covered by the marker.
This is obviously the way that the rules work, as I showed earlier in the thread by demonstrating how the "rolling to hit as normal", that hits caused by rolling to hit are...wait for it...hits!
Actually, hold on, saying that something is obvious assumes that anyone should be able to see this, and since it's the point of discussion saying that this is obvious is incredibly stupid, question-begging, and a piss-poor way to carry on a conversation.
So let me just say that I demonstrated how the rules work earlier in the thread, and your counter-example failed to invalidate that demonstration because your counter-example failed to accurately my reasoning.
Moreover, in addition to your counter-argument failing to accurately address my argument, your counter-argument also failed to demonstrate how you think the rules should work. Saying that "This is obviously not the way the rules work" is pointless when I have made an argument to the effect that yes, the rules work exactly as I argue them to.
The roll to hit, as normal, determines a hit. I've shown that. Having secured a hit, a player places the blast marker and may secure additional hits. I've shown that as well. All hits require to wound rolls for them - but that's only relevant to the fact that, normally, one rolls to wound for any successful roll to hit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/04 10:31:18
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Sorry Nurglitch, but you're still wrong.
When the SM firing Frag rolls a "5", he scores a "hit" with a Blast marker.
From a semantics standpoint, the "unit" may be "hit", but NO models are hit. That is where you are getting things completely wrong.
Models within the unit are not actually hit until the Blast marker is physically placed and then evaluated for coverage of full and partials.
Now granted that GW probably should have re-worded things to make them clearer to you, but the text is very clear or you get the kind of stupidity of 2 hits scored against a single model in dispersed formation.
I don't know why this isn't obvious to you.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/04 11:17:33
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Thank the Lords of Terra that blast markers will automatically hit all models partially and fully touched. 2 months and this becomes moot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/04 22:25:48
Subject: Re:Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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Only thing I was going to add was that if your to big then you have absorbed all of the blast. Therefore its a hit because your have taken all of what could be put out. The word partial was made up for a reason and that reasoning is not being used correctly in this topic. If anything the center hole is telling you that you have hit your target, now did you get any partials in that. Granted all this will be mute in just a few months, oh well...
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Biomass
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/05 00:05:34
Subject: Re:Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Geddonnit-Thank the Lords of Terra that blast markers will automatically hit all models partially and fully touched. 2 months and this becomes moot.
Bet this tread is still around though..
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"Dakkanaut" not "Dakkaite"
Only with Minatures, does size matter...
"Only the living collect a pension"Johannes VII
"If the ork codex and 5th were developed near the same time, any possible nerf will be pre-planned."-malfred
"I'd do it but the GW Website makes my eyes hurt. "Gwar
"That would be page 7 and a half. You find it by turning your rulebook on its side and slamming your head against it..." insaniak
MeanGreenStompa - The only chatbot I ever tried talking to insisted I take a stress pill and kept referring to me as Dave, despite my protestations.
insaniak "So, by 'serious question' you actually meant something entirely different? "
Frazzled[Mod] On Rule #1- No it literally means: be polite. If we wanted less work there would be no OT section.
Chowderhead - God no. If I said Pirates Honor, I would have had to kill him whether he won or lost. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/05 01:58:54
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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JohnHwangDD: Nope, both I and my opinion are correct in this matter.
If I may draw your attention to the fact that the blast marker determines the number of additional hits, not the models that are hit. Models are not hit by the Warhammer 40k rules (4th edition), units are hit. Models may be removed as casualties, but units are hit, wounded, and take saving throws. Hence there is never a problem of a single model scoring two hits on its parent unit when that unit is attacked with a blast weapon.
What I don't understand is how you honestly imagine I'm suggesting anything that would allow a model under the template to be hit twice, or anything other than a strict reading of the rules as stated in the text.
After all, do not the rules state that hits are caused automatically for models completely under the marker, and on a 4+ for models partially under the marker? Given that there is a HOLE in the middle of the marker, and that this hole must be placed over a model in the unit, it would follow that at least one model under the marker is not automatically hit by the blast marker. This model is not completely covered by the marker, and it would be stupid to suppose that they are partially covered.
The fact is that believing that hits are either caused by being completely covered by a blast maker or partially covered by a blast marker is a false dichotomy. The hits caused by blast markers do not exhaust the number of hits caused by an attack with a blast weapon - there is the hit caused, AS NORMAL, by the roll to hit.
The amusing thing about all of this is that, if rumours are true, GW is making it clear for the crowd that believes that some models can only count for partial hits by making blast markers behave like templates. No doubt they are doing so precisely because of the sort of rules twisting that some people are doing in this thread, whereby some absurd conclusion about the rules is pulled out the collective rear ends of a few...creative...rules lawyers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/05 04:23:00
Subject: Re:Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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ok you seem to be getting far too riled up about this. Wishing it to be does not make it so. most likely GW intedned blast markers to be used for additional hits. However this is not how they wrote the rules. Blast weapons do not function under normal rules. This is why they have their own section. Nurglitch the general concensus here in this thread is that you are technically wrong.
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"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."
-Joseph Stalin
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/05 04:59:44
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Consensus has nothing to do with truth. The name of that fallacy is "argumentum ad populum".
A valid and well-cited counter-argument to my reading, on the other hand, has yet to be posted.
Feel free to post one because if I'm wrong I'd appreciate being convinced of it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/05 06:01:51
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Nurglitch wrote:JohnHwangDD: Nope, both I and my opinion are correct in this matter.
If I may draw your attention to the fact that the blast marker determines the number of additional hits, not the models that are hit.
After all, do not the rules state that hits are caused automatically for models completely under the marker, and on a 4+ for models partially under the marker?
there is the hit caused, AS NORMAL, by the roll to hit.
Nope, you're still wrong.
Nowhere in the Blast rule does it say anything about additional hits.
It says to place a Blast marker and then to determine hits depending on whether the base is fully covered or only partially covered.
Nowhere does it state anything about the model under the whole automatically being hit.
There is NO hit caused "as normal", because the "as normal" only applies to the *rolling* of the die roll - i.e. re-rolls.
That leads me to the conclusion that either you have a completely different rulebook from the rest of us, or you don't know what you're talking about.
The Blast mechanic replaces the standard "unit being hit" with the Marker. It's really not a difficult concept. Otherwise the rule would say something like "the model under the hole is automatically hit, and in additionon, other models are hit if their bases are completely under the marker / 4+ if there bases are partially under the marker."
But that isn't what the rule says.
It says to place a marker and then determine what, if anything, is hit.
Please keep in mind that the radius of marker from the hole is only 1.5", and there is NO REQUIREMENT that the Blast be CENTERED over the enemy model. This allows the Blast to be placed on the edge of a 60mm round base, to overlap several 25mm round bases. This might give the opportunity to score several partials. For example, Guardians hiding behind an Avatar.
Just read, understand, and follow the rules. It's not that difficult.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/05 08:09:38
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Correction, JohnHwangDD, the entire Blast Weapon rules are about causing additional hits. You're mistaking mention of the term "additional" with the actual structure of the rules expressed by the text. An understandable mistake if one supposes that each rule in the book corresponds to a single term, but still a mistake if one wishes to read the rules correct. Let's look at those rules, shall we?
Blast Weapons, p.30:
"When you fire a blast weapon roll to hit as normal; if the shot misses it has no effect. If a hit is scored take the Blast marker and place it over the target unit so that one model is under the hole to see how many models are affected."
The rule says to roll to hit as normal. That indicates that we are using the basic procedure used to determine hits. That can be found on page 22. The rule also says that in the advent of scoring a hit, the Blast marker is placed so its hole is over one model in the target unit to determine a number of hits.
Roll To Hit, p.22:
"To determine if the firing unit has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot. Normally troopers will only get to fire one shot each. However, some creatures or weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we'll explain in more detail later. The dice score need to hit will depend on how accurate the firers are (as shown by their Ballistic Skill characteristic or BS). The chart below shows the minimum D6 roll needed to score a hit."
The rule says that if you roll the threshold number on the chart below, you have scored a hit on a unit (targets are defined as units on page 18). So normally if you successfully roll to hit, you have at least one hit.
Blast Weapons, p.30:
"Models whose bases are partially covered by the marker are hit on a D6 roll of 4 or more, models whose bases are completely covered are hit automatically."
The Blast Weapons rules further say that models partially covered by the maker count as hits on a 4+, while models completely covered automatically count as hits. Now since the hits caused by a weapon are inclusive, such that the role to hit is in addition to the hits caused by the marker rather than instead, it follows that if a single model unit is hit by a blast weapon that it will ordinarily take one hit at most, rather than taking one hit from the to hit roll and one hit from being partially covered by the template (since the hole ensures it is only partially covered).
Now I've explained how the Blast Weapon rules state that the blast marker is used to determine additional hits: You get one hit from successfully rolling to hit, because otherwise when the blast marker is placed at least one model, the model under the hole in the middle of the marker, is only ever partially hit regardless of the size of its base.
The model under the hole is not automatically hit, and I've gone to pains to explain that. I will reiterate: Models are not hit. Models are used to determine the number of hits on the unit caused by a blast marker. Since there is one initial hit, and each model completely or partially covered by the blast marker adds another hit, a unit hit by a blast weapon always suffers at least one hit, and may suffer more if the blast marker covers more than one model.
Your inability to follow my argument does not lead me to make spurious and unsupported conclusions about the nature of your copy of the rules, or the epistemology basis of your claims. After all, I have quoted the relevant text, shown what rules it states, and posted my work for you to check, what you do with it is your business. I can only try to help you insofar as you want to know the truth, rather than trying to 'win' some argument on the intarwebz.
I must admit though, it's pretty funny to read someone telling me to read the rules (as if I hadn't quoted them earlier in the thread and shown how to read them), understand (i.e.: agree with them about something I have good reason to disagree with), and follow the rules (rather tangential to what the rules actually are, but them's the breaks I suppose). It's particularly funny because I'm wondering why you don't just read the rules, understand them, and stop playing silly buggers with them!
Funny old world eh?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/05 12:04:16
Subject: Re:Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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@Nurglitch: Normal rules are always overridden by special rules.
Blast Weapons, p.30:
"When you fire a blast weapon roll to hit as normal; if the shot misses it has no effect. If a hit is scored take the Blast marker and place it over the target unit so that one model is under the hole to see how many models are affected."
The "roll to hit as normal" section of that statement specifically refers to:
Roll To Hit, p.22:
"To determine if the firing unit has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot... The dice score need to hit will depend on how accurate the firers are (as shown by their Ballistic Skill characteristic or BS). The chart below shows the minimum D6 roll needed to score a hit."
Meaning roll to hit to check if you are allowed to place said template.
The normal 1 hit 1 wound rule is replaced by, Blast Weapons, p.30:
"Models whose bases are partially covered by the marker are hit on a D6 roll of 4 or more, models whose bases are completely covered are hit automatically."
Logically it makes no sense if a blast template's center is on a model but it is not hit. However as i have said earlier Logic has no place in the grim darkness of the far future, where there is onlywar.
For some unforseeable reason you seem dead set on that you still get a too wound roll on the centered model. However this is not supported by written rules in the rulebook.
Your arguement of:
"The model under the hole is not automatically hit, and I've gone to pains to explain that. I will reiterate: Models are not hit. Models are used to determine the number of hits on the unit caused by a blast marker. Since there is one initial hit, and each model completely or partially covered by the blast marker adds another hit, a unit hit by a blast weapon always suffers at least one hit, and may suffer more if the blast marker covers more than one model."
Is nullified bt the rules for blast weapons: Blast Weapons, p.30:
"When you fire a blast weapon roll to hit as normal; if the shot misses it has no effect. If a hit is scored take the Blast marker and place it over the target unit so that one model is under the hole to see how many models are affected."
"Models whose bases are partially covered by the marker are hit on a D6 roll of 4 or more, models whose bases are completely covered are hit automatically."
The key section is "see how many models are affected" which seems to be confusing you. If it was written: "to see how many models are also affected." If it was written that way or wording similar to it i would agree. However its not.
And your opinion of the matter is a rather liberal interpertation of the rules. And just like in any matter, when a liberal is proved wrong they deny the facts placed before them.
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"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."
-Joseph Stalin
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/05 17:42:32
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Red_Lives: I agree, specific rules over-ride more general rules that they contradict.
However, in the case of Blast Weapons, the specific rules of Blast Weapons do not contradict the more general To Hit Roll rules. In fact, the specific rule explicitly tells us to follow the normal general To Hit Roll rules as they cover rolling to hit as normal.
Now, about logic, logic is very relevant where rules and structures composed of rules are concerned. Moreover the particular logic one might apply, such as classical, intuitionistic, many-valued, paraconsistent, modal, etc is important as different logics will license different inferences.
Logically, meaning following classically from the premises given in the rules, the model under the hole of the marker is only ever partially covered by that marker. That is, of course, if we only follow the logic of the rules stated by the text of the Blast Weapons. Where we add the structures denoted by the text of the To Hit Roll rules, then logically the model under the hole of the marker counts as the first hit from the roll to hit, and all other models are additional hits to that.
You see, the context of the phrase "see how many models are affected" is a context in which at least one hit has already been caused, and one model, the model under the hole of the marker, has been distinguished from the models causing hits in combination with that marker. That model is distinguished from the models causing hits via the marker by the rule stated by the text that:
"If a hit is scored take the Blast marker and place it over the target unit so that one model is under the hole to see how many models are affected."
So I'm sorry, but I'm not confused about what the rules mean. I'm just pointing out that the scope of "see how many models are affected" has been fixed by the context of that phrase to mean the same thing as "to see how many models are also affected".
Nice snipe about liberals, by the way. It really made your argument convincing, and was relevant to the matter of what the rules actually say.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/05 18:10:14
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Been Around the Block
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Nurglitch wrote:
You see, the context of the phrase "see how many models are affected" is a context in which at least one hit has already been caused, and one model, the model under the hole of the marker, ....
No, Red is spot on in his analysis. The blast rules tell you who is affected by the hits, an exception to the implied, default application of 1 hit affects 1 model.
As has been said already:
"Models whose bases are partially covered by the marker are hit on a D6 roll of 4 or more, models whose bases are completely covered are hit automatically." The implication of your analysis is that if a blast marker is placed over and wholly covers just one model, by your application that would be 1 hit, and following the quoted rule that would be another hit, so 2 hits on one model? Of course not. It's 1 hit, because the blast rules tell us who is affected.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/05/05 18:10:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/05 18:15:45
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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deadlygopher: No, the implication of my analysis is that if a single model unit is hit, then only one hit is caused, the hit caused by the successful to hit roll. There are no other models in the unit to cause additional hits.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/05 18:21:04
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Been Around the Block
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But if you say that 1 hit is caused when the firer makes a successful roll against his ballistic skill, then why would you ignore this rule? This would still have efficacy, would it not? And if it does, it would cause another hit.
"Models whose bases are partially covered by the marker are hit on a D6 roll of 4 or more, models whose bases are completely covered are hit automatically."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/05 18:36:45
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I'll assume "this rule" means the quoted text in your message.
First I'll point out that I'm not ignoring the rule about how many hits are determined by the blast marker. I'm applying it within the context of the rules, and the context of the rules does not allow the hit caused by the roll to hit get doubled up by the hits caused by the placement of the blast marker. Hence I'm trying to explain why the context to that sentence makes those hit an addition to the hit caused by a successful roll to hit.
The context, without repeating the text and its exegesis, is that the player places the blast marker after a successful roll to hit, when one hit has already been scored. Now the marker has a hole in the middle that must be placed over a model in the unit. Either that model always counts as partially covered, or it is the initial hit. The text says that it is the initial hit, hence all the other models completely or partially covered by the template are the referent models of the sentence you quote.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/05/05 18:51:40
Subject: Hahaha! I’m too big to be hit by your blast weapon.
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Been Around the Block
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I find this argument entertaining from you, Nurglitch.
In your previous post you said the context implies the rule should be read as "to see how many models are also affected".
But see, the rule doesn't say "also affected," it says "to see how many models are affected." This is not an ambiguous wording, nor is it unclear or susceptible to varying interpretation. We needn't go to the far corners of the BGB to see what it means, because we've got some good ol' fashioned plain English here. Quite simply, this blast rule tells us how to translate a successful ballistic skill roll into affecting hits.
You're attempt to avoid what is obvious to everyone else - that the blast rules are a special exception to the normal application of 1 hit affects 1 model - is uncomfortably strained. You need to justify your position by saying the rules don't say what they say, but in fact include words that aren't there. How far hath the defender of RAW fallen!
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