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Damn straight I can.

The Stoners I know struggle to hold down jobs. This means they are constantly trying to ponce money off of friends and family to buy more weed, which is particularly pathetic seeing as the substance is not chemically addictive, the fools just have a habit.

Drug Dealers are rarely nice people, and are usually users themselves, peddling their wares to others to fund their own habit/addiction. Me, I'd have no part in that. I'll people a drink and give them a ciggie, sure, because I both drink and smoke. But seeing as I am anti-narcotics, I will not give them money to go and get stoned off their face. Plus, sustained use of Cannabis has a proven detrimental affect on the psyche. Yes, it does have various medicinal uses, and these could be harnessed in pill form without getting the taker munted.

So why do you use it when there are legal alternatives? And I don't just mean Alcohol. Salvia Extract has much the same affect, without being illegal. Or are you just too damned hip daddio to like, listen to what the man says, man? There is very little justification for breaking a law, regardless of whether you feel it is just or not. Sure, it might not be a bad thing for a man to steal a loaf of bread so his family might eat, but smoking Weed is a different kettle of fish, however you dress it up.

Mad Doc, ever had a beer? Cigarette? I fear you may be straying into the region of hypocracy.

I smoke daily, and I intend to get thoroughly rubbered on the weekend with my Brother to celebrate his 30th. I fail to see the hypocricy.

As long as I smoke outside, I break no law (I'm 28) and I can drink to excess if I wish, no law prevents it. Both of these substances are heavily taxed, meaning any damage I do to myself is arguably paid for in terms of NHS help and that. Indeed, a fair portion of Tobacco related taxes are 'ring fenced' for the NHS.

I do not break the law in enjoying myself. Cannabis and other Drug Users do. Is it any wonder Cocaine, apart from Bolivian Marching Powder, is also known as dill weed Dust?

Salvia does not have the same effect as weed. They are nowhere near the same. And please show how marijuana is "detrimental the psyche." What does this mean? Depression? Mood swings? I recall reading a study a few months ago which found the ONLY long term effect of marijuana use to be decreased aggression. And seeing as the people who were used in the study smoked WAY too much weed (5-6 times a day, or about twice what I smoke in a heavy week) over the course of years, I'm not convinced I'm in any danger. As for employment. I've held down a job since I was seventeen (my parents celebrated my birthday by telling me to find a job or move out, but they did that with all of us) and only recently stopped working so that I could dedicate my time to once again being a full time student. That's seven years (six of which I was also in school) with only about two weeks between jobs. I have never been fired. I don't barrow money, not for anything. And I agree that cocaine is for dickheads. I would never touch the stuff. However, equating it to marijuana is once again apples to oranges.

Drug Dealers are rarely nice people, and are usually users themselves, peddling their wares to others to fund their own habit/addiction. Me, I'd have no part in that.

I agree. That's why I buy from a source I know and if marijuana were legalized I'd buy it from 7-11.

I don't know. Anecdotally of course but the serious potheads I used to know were pretty fried mentally.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I smoke daily, and I intend to get thoroughly rubbered on the weekend with my Brother to celebrate his 30th. I fail to see the hypocricy.

As long as I smoke outside, I break no law (I'm 28) and I can drink to excess if I wish, no law prevents it. Both of these substances are heavily taxed, meaning any damage I do to myself is arguably paid for in terms of NHS help and that. Indeed, a fair portion of Tobacco related taxes are 'ring fenced' for the NHS.

I do not break the law in enjoying myself. Cannabis and other Drug Users do. Is it any wonder Cocaine, apart from Bolivian Marching Powder, is also known as dill weed Dust?

At this point the argument appears to be that illegal drugs should remain illegal because it is bad to use them because using them breaks the law.

Frazzled wrote:I don't know. Anecdotally of course but the serious potheads I used to know were pretty fried mentally.

There’s been a lot of studies, many of which have tied to pot use to schizophrenia and depression.

It’s an extremely difficult thing to establish conclusively. Beyond the problems of separating causation from correlation, the field is so politicised it’s very hard to know whether to trust a study or not. I think the most reasonable answer at this point is that if you’ve got a history of mental problems in your family, don’t take the risk.

From personal experience, of all the people I've known who took drugs in some capacity, two ended up having short hospital stays as a direct consequence of drug use, one of whom is now fine and one of whom now seems to have some diminished capacity. But both of them did a whole lot more than smoke marijuana, and neither was all that well balanced to begin with.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Is it?

Because a work force ripped to it's sweaty tits on E's and Wobbly Eggs is going to be sooooo productive.

Restricting the rights of citizens to do what they want on grounds of economic productivity is irrelevant, and indicates an underlying political philosophy that is extremely unhealthy.

Also, there’s a massive difference between legalising a drug and allowing people to be under its influence at all times. It is presently legal to drink but no workplace tolerates drunkenness. It is silly to claim marijuana or any other drug would work differently.

I suppose the question is: if marijuana was legal, would you suddenly not have the same objections, Mad Doc? It is illegal, but laws are not directly related to morality. (Are parking tickets really a sign of bad moral fiber?)

Yes, many people involved in the production of illegal narcotics are not folk you want to invite to dinner. But that is what happens when a product that is wanted is illegal, bad people get rich supplying it. Organized crime exploded in the US during prohibition because there was a product that many people wanted but could only get from illegitimate sources. If something is so disastrously bad then it is worth the black market. But I really doubt Marijuana is one of those things. How many people do cigarettes and alcohol kill each year? Far more than marijuana.

Should PCP be legal? Crack? Probably not. But there are differences between drugs, they are not one and the same despite what years of after school specials and poorly conceived anti-drug programs have taught many people.

Frazzled wrote:Except for chocolate cake of course. It is SO worth it...

What he said. Even if most chocolate is grown by warlords, it's still worth it.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Because a work force ripped to it's sweaty tits on E's and Wobbly Eggs is going to be sooooo productive.

Add in the tax on such commodities would be sky high, the illegal supply would not halt.
But hey, because if it was legal, you wouldn't be funding Terrorists or Militants, thats a-ok to do so now yeah! Rock on in the free world!

Depends on the nature of the work. Beatles made much better music with drugs than without, and look at the musical output of rawk stars who go clean, always produce terrible music afterwards.

Alcohol is heavily taxed and whilst there is a healthy trade in smuggled booze, especially near/in ports/similar most people don't buy/use illegal alcohol as it's far easier to, for example, just go to the local pub to celebrate for example.

And I'd point out that cigarettes have had a far more harmful impact on society than LSD or DMT, no secondary smoke damage from them.

Depends on how you define getting mashed off your nut and driving your car into people. Second Hand Smoke, or Second Hand Idiocy?

Drugs are illegal for a reason. They are harmful to mental health is just one of them.

Read about this Danish study reported here.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/06/cannabis_psychosis_study/

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Depends on how you define getting mashed off your nut and driving your car into people. Second Hand Smoke, or Second Hand Idiocy?

Drugs are illegal for a reason. They are harmful to mental health is just one of them.

err okay.

Not possibly good reasons though or even fair/just ones. You don't think the huge donations made by chemical firms desperate to develop an artificial and patented version of THC has anything to do with the status of weed ? Really ?

And cocaine was legal for a while, as was the poll tax, slavery, spousal rape etc etc

Well, how long have those companies existed, and how long has Cannabis been illegal?

Regardless of whether you see a law as being just or unjust is irrelevant. What is against the law is against the law. There are ways and means (lobbying) of getting things looked at again.

For example, there are a number of laws I disagree with, but I still obey them.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Well, how long have those companies existed, and how long has Cannabis been illegal?

Regardless of whether you see a law as being just or unjust is irrelevant. What is against the law is against the law. There are ways and means (lobbying) of getting things looked at again.

For example, there are a number of laws I disagree with, but I still obey them.

And I'd place money there are laws that you blatantly ignore as well as not convieiant or worthy. Ever borrowed or leant a cd/dvd/tape etc ? And I'm sure no-one here has ever indulged in downloading codices/rules etc right ?

I disagree entirely as to whether the view takes of a law being unjust has no relevance to your bowing down to it. Taxation without representation for example. Or giving up your seat for someone of white skin. Or the French actions to do with car clamps.

People do lobby for change of laws all the time.

http://www.pjstar.com/homepage/x601012368/Illinois-crime-falls-by-3-percent

BAM...

key part "attributed partly to tougher drug laws"

now granted, its not much. but its better then nothing.

A drop is a drop.

Of course, we could eliminate Crime altogther by legalising everything.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:A drop is a drop.

Indeed

By now, there can be little doubt that most, if not all, "drug-related murders" are the result of drug prohibition. The same type of violence came with the Eighteenth Amendment's ban of alcohol in 1920. The murder rate rose with the start of Prohibition, remained high during Prohibition, and then declined for 11 consecutive years when Prohibition ended.[2] The rate of assaults with a firearm rose with Prohibition and declined for 10 consecutive years after Prohibition. In the last year of Prohibition--1933--there were 12,124 homicides and 7,863 assaults with firearms; by 1941 these figures had declined to 8,048 and 4,525, respectively.[3] (See Figure 1.)

linky

Of course, we could eliminate Crime altogther by legalising everything.

golf clap.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Depends on how you define getting mashed off your nut and driving your car into people. Second Hand Smoke, or Second Hand Idiocy?

Drugs are illegal for a reason. They are harmful to mental health is just one of them.

Um... wow. You do realize that no one is advocating driving under the influence right? I'm all for the legalization of cannabis, but with use comes responsibility. You wouldn't drive after drinking would you? Hell, if weed were legal, I'd support serious penalties for driving under the influence, same as with alcohol.

Of course, we could eliminate Crime altogther by legalising everything.

"when you criminalize non-criminal acts, you still create real criminals."

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Well, how long have those companies existed, and how long has Cannabis been illegal?

Regardless of whether you see a law as being just or unjust is irrelevant. What is against the law is against the law. There are ways and means (lobbying) of getting things looked at again.

For example, there are a number of laws I disagree with, but I still obey them.

One means of lobbying for a law to be repealed is to have mass public flouting of it, which challenges the legal system to deal with it.

This is how homosexual rights, anti-segregation and various other laws have got changed.

Has anyone here read Kohlberg’s stages of moral development?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development

Kohlberg argues there are stages of moral development that people will move through, although most people don’t reach the final stages. One of the key things to take away from the model is the idea that you can get to a stage where certain principles are greater than laws and social norms.

I’m not so sure that ‘I want to get high’ is quite so powerful a principle, but it’s interesting in the context of Grotsnik’s argument that the law is the law and shouldn’t be broken.