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As noted, if a private school wants to do that-good for them. Its not required. If a college wants to do that-good for them. Its not required. Public education is required. Again, what you call "challenging" I see as nothing more than forced brainwashing. further, it takes away from actually teaching them something. In places where that is a fad test scores are pathetic and the students can't compete because they are too busy being indoctrinated into the latest fad and not learning what 2+2 is. Meanwhile our Asian competition kicks our teeth in.

Fortunately I and my ilk vote and contribute politically.

you're framing the Mormon's actions as an attack on the rights of homosexuals and not a defense of their religious values. They have a right to vote and be part of shaping the country as they want to see it just as the homosexuals have a right to do the same. Exchange of ideas and all that which makes a democracy great. I also don't have a problem with people boycotting the mormons as long as nothing illegal results. People should have the right to vote and believe wha thtey want. They also should expect to pay the consequences for that belief or vote.

dogma wrote:
Either way, unless the Mormons have a theological doctrine which requires them to deny rights to those they do not agree with I gotta say that this is less like getting mad at Jews for wanting to keep Israel on the map, and more like getting mad at Jews for oppressing non-Jewish resident of Israel.

As a Mormon, I thought I should just point out that Marriage and Family are central to our faith and sacred to us in a way that can be difficult for people not of our faith to understand.

Our position is not anti-gay, our position is pro-preserving what we believe is sacred. I know it may be hard to believe, but it really has nothing to do with the homosexual community. If there had been a law passed allowing people to marry their pets, we would have opposed that just as strongly.

We may have incompatible beliefs with the pro-gay marriage community, but that does not make us enemies. We hold no enmity against the gay community. We are simply standing up for what we believe to be right, and we understand that they are doing the same.

Ozymandias wrote:

Doctor Thunder wrote:

dogma wrote:

I gotta say that I beg to differ. One of the most important things a private school can do is provide a potentially dissenting opinion from that of the parents.

Fixed your quote.

Public schools have no business subverting parental authority.

So you're saying that if the parents are racists or don't believe that the Holocaust happened then Public schools have no right to teach the students these things? I don't see how saying, "A small percentage of humans are attracted to the same sex; they are called homosexuals." is subverting the will of the parents. It is neither condoning nor condemning homosexual behavior, just stating it as a fact.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

If the parents are racist that is their right (and it sucks, yes.). The school has No business to interfere with that. Now, the school is required to protect it's students so it can punish any intimidation, threats, action of those whho are distributing hate. But they cannot say that hate is wrong.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

dogma wrote:
Either way, unless the Mormons have a theological doctrine which requires them to deny rights to those they do not agree with I gotta say that this is less like getting mad at Jews for wanting to keep Israel on the map, and more like getting mad at Jews for oppressing non-Jewish resident of Israel.

As a Mormon, I thought I should just point out that Marriage and Family are central to our faith and sacred to us in a way that can be difficult for people not of our faith to understand.

Our position is not anti-gay, our position is pro-preserving what we believe is sacred. I know it may be hard to believe, but it really has nothing to do with the homosexual community. If there had been a law passed allowing people to marry their pets, we would have opposed that just as strongly.

We may have incompatible beliefs with the pro-gay marriage community, but that does not make us enemies. We hold no enmity against the gay community. We are simply standing up for what we believe to be right, and we understand that they are doing the same.

You are using laws to say something is sacred. Don't you see the problem with that?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Lets put it this way.

If you weren't allowed to play warhammer, you'd be pretty pissed.

If you weren't allowed to vote, you'd be pretty pissed.

If you weren't allowed to drive, you'd be pretty pissed.

If someone took away YOUR right to get married, you'd be pretty pissed.

These people have never even had the option to get married.

It's a certificate, a different tax structure, and a ceremony yet in the "land of the free" 2 people who love eachother can't get married. If the gays love dude parts as much as I love girlparts, if someone said "tittys are a sin against god and marriage to them is forbidden" then I would be flipping over cars and burning down buildings.

Gen. Lee Losing wrote: But they cannot say that hate is wrong.

You've said a lot of silly things in this thread and the other on marriage. But this one takes the cake.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:

Doctor Thunder wrote:

dogma wrote:
Either way, unless the Mormons have a theological doctrine which requires them to deny rights to those they do not agree with I gotta say that this is less like getting mad at Jews for wanting to keep Israel on the map, and more like getting mad at Jews for oppressing non-Jewish resident of Israel.

As a Mormon, I thought I should just point out that Marriage and Family are central to our faith and sacred to us in a way that can be difficult for people not of our faith to understand.

Our position is not anti-gay, our position is pro-preserving what we believe is sacred. I know it may be hard to believe, but it really has nothing to do with the homosexual community. If there had been a law passed allowing people to marry their pets, we would have opposed that just as strongly.

We may have incompatible beliefs with the pro-gay marriage community, but that does not make us enemies. We hold no enmity against the gay community. We are simply standing up for what we believe to be right, and we understand that they are doing the same.

You are using laws to say something is sacred. Don't you see the problem with that?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

No, they are voting their conscience. That is something different.

I'd have far more respect for the 'anti gay marriage' groups if they were also working to make it harder to marry (say requiring meeting with a relationship councilor for 6 months before a legal marriage) and harder to divorce.

With all the many, many, problems American families face gay marriage seems an odd place to draw a line in the sand.

It seems that criminalizing adultery, or having harsher penalties for married people buying sex would do more to defend marriage than singling out a miniorty group as not allowed to marry.

Ozymandias wrote:

Gen. Lee Losing wrote: But they cannot say that hate is wrong.

You've said a lot of silly things in this thread and the other on marriage. But this one takes the cake.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I personally believe hate is wrong! But I hate killers. I hate pedophiles. It is my right to hate them! If when I was young I was told that I am not allowed to hate criminals that beat up old ladies, I would have given the teacher the finger and walked out! Hate is not about facts, it is about emotions. Schools are there to teach facts. Therefore, what I said was correct!

Frazzled wrote:As noted, if a private school wants to do that-good for them. Its not required. If a college wants to do that-good for them. Its not required. Public education is required. Again, what you call "challenging" I see as nothing more than forced brainwashing. further, it takes away from actually teaching them something. In places where that is a fad test scores are pathetic and the students can't compete because they are too busy being indoctrinated into the latest fad and not learning what 2+2 is. Meanwhile our Asian competition kicks our teeth in.

I want to know why you consider it indoctrination. Really, I do. Because I, for the life of me, cannot figure it out. If your child comes home and asks you questions about what you, or the school, has taught her how is that not beneficial for not only her understanding, but your own?

Also, characterizing any education beyond the sciences as 'the latest fad' is pretty ignorant. Everything in school teaches logical association, if you can parse Plato, you can do a math problem. At least so long as you have the basic rules memorized. The issue with our math and science scores isn't that we don't teach it enough, but that kids simply aren't paying attention. After all, even our literacy scores are significantly down from what they were 15 years ago.

Also, test scores are far from fully indicative of academic merit.

Frazzled wrote:Fortunately I and my ilk vote and contribute politically.

Unfortunately Texas holds a virtual monopoly on the printing of text books, so you and your ilk hold a frustratingly disproportionate sway over what is taught in this nation.

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Acceptance of homosexuality is not a dogma, it's the law of the land.

Actually, Non-discrimination is the law of the land. Acceptance is a personal issue that cannot be legislated.

Non discrimination IS acceptance with regards to the law which was the point.

By using any votes they had the Mormons weren't attacking homosexuals. By contributing millions of $s to campaign against something that would not affect them at all-- unless you are perhaps a gay mormon ?-- they did "attack" the homosexual community.

I've yet to see any evidence or argument put forth how homosexual couples having the same rights ( and responsibilities) as "regular" married folks would have impinged upon the lives or values of Mormons anymore than 9,999 other things in America.

Incidentally, was I the only one who now sees Mr. Frazell sat at his computer with his pet Elk next to him ? I've got to stop drinking this early.

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
If the parents are racist that is their right (and it sucks, yes.). The school has No business to interfere with that. Now, the school is required to protect it's students so it can punish any intimidation, threats, action of those whho are distributing hate. But they cannot say that hate is wrong.

So, then, teaching that Children about carpet baggers, the KKK, and Jim Crow is wrong?

*sigh*

Seeing that no one still has been able to provide a logical reason that gay marriage should not be allowed it's really hard for me to take you seriously and not believe that it's simply homophobia or mis-guided beliefs about gays in general.

It's also painfully clear that none of you know anyone close to you who is gay. I think if you did, you wouldn't be able to look them in the face and tell them that they can't marry who they love because you don't think their lifestyle is "moral".

I'm outta here.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
No, they are voting their conscience. That is something different.

Not when it gets written into the legal framework. When your conscience tells you to deny the rights of another you must question your conscience.

dogma wrote:
Unfortunately Texas holds a virtual monopoly on the printing of text books, so you and your ilk hold a frustratingly disproportionate sway over what is taught in this nation.

To add some background to this...

Education in the US is government by states (though under Bush's No Child Left Behind act the Federal government did create some minimum standards to qualify for federal funding).

Textbooks publishers however are national businesses and therefore want their books sold in as many states as they can.

Therefore they write their books with the 2 biggest markets in mind. One is Texas. the other? california.

So our history and social studies books are written so they'll be bought by one of the most conservative and liberal states in the country.

reds8n wrote:
non discrimination IS acceptance with regards to the law which was the point.

By using any votes they had the Mormons weren't attacking homosexuals. By contributing millions of $s to campaign against something that would not affect them at all-- unless you are perhaps a gay mormon ?-- they did "attack" the homosexual community.

I've yet to see any evidence or argument put forth how homosexual couples having the same rights ( and responsibilities) as "regular" married folks would have impinged upon the lives or values of Mormons anymore than 9,999 other things in America.

Okay. But is contributing money to a political cause that opposes something an attack? If so, where can I file lawsuits against everyone who sent money to "No on 8"? They attacked me and my faith's definition of marriage.

Ozymandias wrote:*sigh*

Seeing that no one still has been able to provide a logical reason that gay marriage should not be allowed it's really hard for me to take you seriously and not believe that it's simply homophobia or mis-guided beliefs about gays in general.

It's also painfully clear that none of you know anyone close to you who is gay. I think if you did, you wouldn't be able to look them in the face and tell them that they can't marry who they love because you don't think their lifestyle is "moral".

I'm outta here.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I am not saying you deserve fewer rights. If you read my posts, I am saying I support upgrading Civil Unions to be an exact match of marriage. You agree to leave marriage alone and I agree to you having the same rights. Marriage is an institution that has been hetro for a VERY long time. Why change it if you can get the exact same rights with a different approach?

Ozymandias wrote:

Doctor Thunder wrote:

dogma wrote:

I gotta say that I beg to differ. One of the most important things a private school can do is provide a potentially dissenting opinion from that of the parents.

Fixed your quote.

Public schools have no business subverting parental authority.

So you're saying that if the parents are racists or don't believe that the Holocaust happened then Public schools have no right to teach the students these things? I don't see how saying, "A small percentage of humans are attracted to the same sex; they are called homosexuals." is subverting the will of the parents. It is neither condoning nor condemning homosexual behavior, just stating it as a fact.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I think you have brought up two good key points of this issue. 1) To what extent do you believe that people have a right to free thought? 2) To what extent do parents have the right to teach their children as they see fit?
Here's my position: I dislike thought-police. I believe in the right to freedom of though enough that I will defend it for those I disagree with.
Many of your thoughts, Ozymandias, I find to be evil, but under no circumstances will I suggest that your children must be indoctrinated into my way of thinking.

When they get older they will encounter other points of view and may choose for themselves, but when they are children the rights belong to the parents.

Well said Doc!

Ozymandias wrote:*sigh*

Seeing that no one still has been able to provide a logical reason that gay marriage should not be allowed it's really hard for me to take you seriously and not believe that it's simply homophobia or mis-guided beliefs about gays in general.

It's also painfully clear that none of you know anyone close to you who is gay. I think if you did, you wouldn't be able to look them in the face and tell them that they can't marry who they love because you don't think their lifestyle is "moral".

I'm outta here.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Arguments have been made. You're just not accepting them. No reason to attack the proponents. I believe Lee Losing already stated he's effectively playing Devil Advocate.

First off, I'm not gay and I'm already married. These rights I'm advocating are not for me but I know a lot of gay people and several I am very close to.

As a married man, I don't see how gay marriage somehow makes my marriage less sacred. It just doesn't make any sense. Someone please explain how gay marriage negatively affects my marriage.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:

You are using laws to say something is sacred. Don't you see the problem with that?

No, I don't. We are using the vote exactly as it should be used. We are voting for what we think is right, exactly the same as the pro-gay marriage side is.

Fraz, what arguments? I see a lot of fallacies and cries of "It's not moral" and "Marriage is sacred" but I've yet to see any real arguments.

And I don't buy Gen. Lee Losing's "I'm just playing Devils Advocate, I don't actually believe this stuff."

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Just a quick point : that snoring icon aint supposed to be there, I've edited it out of the original post, slip o' the mouse. Don't think me rude !

If that something directly affected you -- say the proposition was to ban Mormonism/guns/whatever then yes it would be.

They didn't attack your faiths version or idea of marriage any more so than other religious ceremonies of other faiths being valid or recognised. You're not claiming that a jewish wedding ceremony undermines Mormon values or your way of life are you ?

To clarify : i don't see any way of overturning this in the courts, and i think physical attacks etc are well out of order and wrong. But a boycott of goods and services ? That's perfectly fair. I didn't buy anything by the Coors beer company for years after they gave money to the PMRC ( Tipper Gore and Co.) and my family didn't buy goods from South Africa during the apartheid years.

Hell my grandparents still don't buy Argentinian corned beef after the Falklands.

Ozymandias wrote:
As a married man, I don't see how gay marriage somehow makes my marriage less sacred. It just doesn't make any sense.

And you are entitled to your opinion.

Someone please explain how gay marriage negatively affects my marriage.

No one can do that, because what you do or do not hold sacred and the way you hold it sacred is a personal choice of yours.

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
I am not saying you deserve fewer rights. If you read my posts, I am saying I support upgrading Civil Unions to be an exact match of marriage. You agree to leave marriage alone and I agree to you having the same rights. Marriage is an institution that has been hetro for a VERY long time. Why change it if you can get the exact same rights with a different approach?

Because it isn't entirely about the rights, but the idea of being different, and therefore deserving of 'special' treatment. This is where the civil rights analogy normally comes up.

However, I will approach this from a different angle. Not only does something like Prop 8 discriminate against homosexuals, it discriminates against churches that want to marry homosexuals. In effect, the state is saying that such marriages are less valid than those between heterosexual couples, and is thus infringing on affairs of faith.

Doctor Thunder wrote:
No one can do that, because what you do or do not hold sacred and the way you hold it sacred is a personal choice of yours.

If you cannot justify your belief, then it cannot be written into law. Simply saying 'I believe something because I do' in public discourse is not acceptable.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:
As a married man, I don't see how gay marriage somehow makes my marriage less sacred. It just doesn't make any sense.

And you are entitled to your opinion.

Someone please explain how gay marriage negatively affects my marriage.

No one can do that, because what you do or do not hold sacred and the way you hold it sacred is a personal choice of yours.

Ok then, how does gay marriage make YOUR marriage less sacred.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

dogma wrote:

Doctor Thunder wrote:
No one can do that, because what you do or do not hold sacred and the way you hold it sacred is a personal choice of yours.

If you cannot justify your belief, then it cannot be written into law. Simply saying 'I believe something because I do' in public discourse is not acceptable.

I never said I cannot justify my beliefs, I said I cannot explain his beliefs.