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here's a sickening though, take 2 furnases in the same unit. i cant find anywhere that says each has to be in a seperate unit.

Then watch as 2x the fumes eat away at it quickly, and it has such a large footprint its impossible to move anywhere near the other army, due to terrain or your own units.
It will also struggle to get much of it into combat, possibly missing both of the furnaces.

So, good thought, bad idea


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Edit: It will also be flank charged throughout the whole game, meaning they allways get a nice bonus against you.

Watch as you get march blocked by a single giant eagle.


such fun

How in the hell did a giant eagle dodge like 20 jezzails and all the other warmachines? If a great eagle marchblocks for more than one turn, the skaven player's doing it wrong.

Spellbound wrote:How in the hell did a giant eagle dodge like 20 jezzails and all the other warmachines? If a great eagle marchblocks for more than one turn, the skaven player's doing it wrong.

Forest hopping

On a side note i would like to hear other Fantasy player's opinion on facing giant blocks of skaven slaves.
Do you guys shoot / mow them down for fun?
Or generally try to not step into the "tar pit" ?

Hawkins wrote:Ive an old bell so looks like good times for a bit of basing and conversion. (never built the thing)

I'm thinking about buying the new bell, and converting my old (pre-6E) one into a cataplt. The bell would make a great counterweight...


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LunaHound wrote:

Spellbound wrote:How in the hell did a giant eagle dodge like 20 jezzails and all the other warmachines? If a great eagle marchblocks for more than one turn, the skaven player's doing it wrong.

Forest hopping

On a side note i would like to hear other Fantasy player's opinion on facing giant blocks of skaven slaves.
Do you guys shoot / mow them down for fun?
Or generally try to not step into the "tar pit" ?

If you do it right, the only way to avoid them is to open your flanks to a charge from whatever's behind them.

I thought about the new bell as well, but with the boycott on i cant see me buying it, i will probably convert my old orc catapult instead, or just use my grudge thrower.

slaves? flank charge..... no more slaves.

Hawkins wrote:I thought about the new bell as well, but with the boycott on i cant see me buying it, i will probably convert my old orc catapult instead, or just use my grudge thrower.

slaves? flank charge..... no more slaves.

No, whatever's behind the slaves does the flank charge. Then you send the slaves in the back for good measure!

??? were talking about charging slaves right? as in, response to Luna's question.....
charge the slaves in the flank to get rid of a tar pit.
*gets confused and goes of to bed.*

Ah. I think Luna is referring to a paired charge - the slaves charge the flank, something a bit more solid charges the front.

So, any feedback from the past month of playing?

Here's my main takeaway - Weapon teams still suck, even with a ward save. Any attention at all directed at them and they die. Now, I've only played with the warpfire thrower and ratling gun, but, what kills them would be killing the other ones too. Namely - any and all shooting or magic.

I haven't had a problem with running weapon teams. Against armies without much shooting, there isn't much threat to them, and they can generally get a couple shots off. Against armies with a lot of shooting, I usually hide them behind the parent unit later in the game when most units are locked in combat. Plus, if someone if shooting at the WTs, that's less fire at the Bell or censer bearers. Having a ratling gun in the late game can be really useful when there are depleted enemy units running around, or you've lost your heavy hitters.

I was really skeptical at first about night runners, since they lost their skirmish rule. However, a ranked unit with movement 6 that can pop up on the other side of the board is pretty nice, and they aren't bad hunting big monsters. With their pregame move, deploying them on the flanks to go after archers and such isn't bad either.

I wasn't sure about the cannon now that it shoots like a regular one, but a good shot can take out a lot more infantry than a regular cannon can.

been running (because of restrictions to war machines in tourney here) 3 mortors, a cannon, and a catapult. against armies that dont shoot with heavy bocks of infantry.... all i can say is ick...... i will be getting rid of the catapult, its lack luster when it comes to wounding and even though ive managed to get at least 5 solid hits with it, its killed less than 1o models. on the other hand if you get scorch as a spell for an engineer, i can honestly say OWWWW, DAMN OW!!, ive wiped out 3 entire regiment blocks with this thing in 3 turns (well always killed over half the models).
so after playing and testing, i can say the warlord is an awesome choice on war litter (theres just that small problem of its US (as it could be argues 0 to 4 (5 with warlord) ) and base size. we run it as a US4 including warlord on a 40mm base at the momment (becasue of the torney organisers rules). but it hasent been an issue yet personally i think the war litter should be at most US2 but 0 makes more rules sense. also the base size at 40mm is ok but 40 x 20 could work just as well.

all in all the censor bearers and plague monks are sick, the censors kill WoC heavy cav like they werent even there. cut thru units all by themselves, and just make things nasty for the opponent here we restrict then to being in a 2 choice pool, (witch includes abomination, censors, doom wheel, catapult, cannon, and bell (yup only 2 from the list can be picked and not multiples of rare.) ive charged censors full on and lost the combat needing a double 1 from the ammount of wounds tasken from both the smoke and hits (hit with 24 clanrats full command. they are evil. (so ya i guess thanks GW for making em that way)

Vengis wrote:I haven't had a problem with running weapon teams. Against armies without much shooting, there isn't much threat to them, and they can generally get a couple shots off. Against armies with a lot of shooting, I usually hide them behind the parent unit later in the game when most units are locked in combat. Plus, if someone if shooting at the WTs, that's less fire at the Bell or censer bearers. Having a ratling gun in the late game can be really useful when there are depleted enemy units running around, or you've lost your heavy hitters.

I wasn't sure about the cannon now that it shoots like a regular one, but a good shot can take out a lot more infantry than a regular cannon can.

I don't mean to disparage your experiences, but... It really sounds like your opponents don't know what they're doing. Ten archers can take one round of shooting to kill a major threat and earn 65 VPs or they can shoot something else and do .. nothing? Against armies without much shooting they are the best target choice in your army.

Vengis wrote:
was really skeptical at first about night runners, since they lost their skirmish rule. However, a ranked unit with movement 6 that can pop up on the other side of the board is pretty nice, and they aren't bad hunting big monsters. With their pregame move, deploying them on the flanks to go after archers and such isn't bad either.

I don't understand how you're finding succes with night runners 'hunting' big monsters. Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see too many monsters that would be worried about them OR that could be 'hunted' by them. M6 does not keep up with flying.

I do agree about the cannon however. I don't run an abomination and the cannon has performed beautifully for me. A good to perfect shot with it results in whole units being wiped out. It's really fantastic. If I ran the abomination, might my relative opinion change? Yes, but till I do that conversion, I have no problem running the WLC. It's been pure gold.

the crippler: any unit can find sucsess if you have a specific purpose and learn to use it for that, i use a huge ammount of swarms and find i always make points back with them.
take the Vargulf or tomb scorpion, both are nasty, but if hes using full ranks to slam into them then hes killing them easy (as passive alone means both these monsters have to get in 4 wounds just to break even, i use to do it in the old version with giant rats)
but i do admitt having an extra 6 inches head start with night runners is the bomb if your using them against a gunline, or for flanking.

weapons teams can hide, a half compitant skaven can run a ratling up to a gunline and pound them archers if done right., mortors as well and you wont even have to expose em. skaven really are the new anti gunline, storm banner, 3rd on the engineers spell list. -3 shooting flyers cant, and warmachines need 4plus to even think about firing. send in huge ammounts of mixed infantry and its over.

i guess were all echoing the cannon. its pure gold.

an abomination can be a good thing, but it needs practice to use and you really have to think out its moves at least a turn in advance. ive killed one when it ran into my warlord. made it run and chased it down (not hard). but it had me sweating the whole time it was coming. the battle could just have easily gone against me. corse rival hide did work wonders against its 3-d6 attacks.

swarms, cant say enough about swarms when protecting your flank and war machines. cheep, huge ammount of attacks, and unbreakable but not unpopable. (i run 5 sets of 2 normally. min 3 sets of 2)


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giant rats: something to think about. 75 points. 11 attacks at str 3 ws 3, 2 attacks at str 6 ws 4 i think. or 3 attacks str 4 ws 4. good hard unit for gitting a flank.

Crippler:

Against armies with just a unit of archers or two, I'm going to make sure I try to target those units with some sort of spells or shooting. I have had my weapon teams wiped out before (MSU high elves) but I still think they're worth it. They're great against armies like WoC. I'm interested in trying out the doom roller, or whatever it's called. A 3+/4+ is pretty good.

Maybe 'hunting' is the wrong term to use. Night runners are good for things like giants or stegadons on the flanks. Against large targets, the whole unit can shoot, hitting on a 3+. You can usually get a couple 6s. If you position them at an angle before shooting, you can make the opponent either charge and possibly overrun off the table, or ignore the unit. Slaves with slings can do this too, but they don't hit as often, although they do have much better range.

Hawkins:

How are censer bearers cutting through chaos heavy cav? They'll never get the charge, the censers don't work as well against T4, and the Cav still has a 3+ save against the bearer's S5 attackse, if any censer bearers live through the initial attacks.

Also, why restrict so many choices?

Ven: normally the cav have frenzy, its easy to get them into the position you want , then charge in, i do admit that its hard to crack em, but with 7 thats 21 str 5 attacks with hatered (18 if you loose one to a tough check), and normally 5, 5+ checks on the cav before combat. if they dont have frenzy well all the better, slam a slave unit in front of em, position a swarm in back and then bring the censors on a flank ready to charge in behind... (works like a charm if the opponent doesnt realize what the swarms and slaves are for.witch is to stop the cav from reposioning. (it takes timing and good guessing on charge distance, but its always cool when the WoC tries to reform and cant casue he has to be out of one inch distance. so you see, i do get the charge, it just takes true skaven thinking (sacrifice the 42 point unit, then the 50 point unit, and kill 250+ points and remove a threat.)

as for restrictions, alot of tourneys are doing it here now to keep a balance, though some of the crap they come up with is rediculas.

heres a couple of examples for the salsburg touney tomarrow.
no more than 5 war machines.
no more than 50 shooters. (thrown weapons dont count, weapons teams count as 5, catapults and cannon count as 10. slings are .5
any weapons team after the 3rd couts as a slot (of the 2 your allowed)
no more than 9 power dice can be used per each of your magic phases.
a stupid one was : you cant have more giant rat packs and slave units than you have clanrat units.
no 3 heros the same.
no rares the same.

each army has its own.

some like styermark MT (masters), have more realistic restrictions. some like Tyrol have others. its all in how the hosting organizers want to set it up. the default are the OTT rules and they are ok.

best thing is though is most of the torneys are WYSIWYG heavey, but non gw models are allowed, in fact most armies have at least something cool thats non GW, so there isnt ever problems. i think Wien is the only place where there ever has been a problem with non GW minis. (but then again its one of the few places where there is a GW store.

Vengis wrote:Maybe 'hunting' is the wrong term to use. Night runners are good for things like giants or stegadons on the flanks. Against large targets, the whole unit can shoot, hitting on a 3+. You can usually get a couple 6s. If you position them at an angle before shooting, you can make the opponent either charge and possibly overrun off the table, or ignore the unit. Slaves with slings can do this too, but they don't hit as often, although they do have much better range.

Problem being that - against the Stegadon - not all the hits are going against the monster. Similarly, about 2/3 the hits that are suffered will be saved. Lastly, you either:
1) Are firing at long range (4's to hit)
2) Moved into short range (4's to hit, 5's if double-shooting)

Sure, a nice 40 shots is a good 13 hits, but after randomization you've got about 4 on the crew and 8 on the beast. You're getting one wound, maybe two, and odds are it'll save at least one of those. The crew, you're getting 2-to-3 wounds, again with the majority being saved. And you're now, likely, in combat range. Have fun.

Jezzails are much better anti-stegadon. 4's to hit at long range, no save for any Stegadon-wounds caused, and only a 6+ save for the crew (who's being wounded on 2's). If lucky, a unit of Jezzails could possibly snipe a Skink Character waiting onboard.

How are censer bearers cutting through chaos heavy cav? They'll never get the charge, the censers don't work as well against T4, and the Cav still has a 3+ save against the bearer's S5 attackse, if any censer bearers live through the initial attacks.

I did the calculations earlier.

"Chaos Knights are taking 1-to-2 casualties before either side strikes (regardless of who charges), and for every two Plague Censors who get to attack about one Chaos Knight is going to be killed (6 attacks / 4.5 hits / 3 wounds / 1 failed save). Thus: Knights charge Plague Censor unit, take one insta-casualty. Four attack, horsies kill one, Knights kill (assuming champion) four. Censors caused two wounds on Chaos Knights, losing match but taking out two Knights when charged. Assuming Censors charge, add two-to-three more casualties by the censors and subtract most of the kills caused by the knights. "

keep in mind the standard here is a set of 5 knights, ive seen up to 10 deployed but thats rare and with characters in. (WoC)

Hawkins wrote:keep in mind the standard here is a set of 5 knights, ive seen up to 10 deployed but thats rare and with characters in. (WoC)

I was assuming an average width of six, as many people will take a 6-7 width (at least at my GW) due to the extra attacks it provides in addition to giving no extra contact-range against most armies (Few having more than 5 models wide blocks anyways).

If your going anti-stegadon, PCB work wonders. 1 Censor bearer in BSB contact with the steg = toughness tests on everything on the model. Sure you may not hurt the steg, but you'll wipe out the crew and wound the character pretty easy. Best way I've found to get rid of Engines (which are a pain in the butt), especially at Burning my weapons teams I have running around.

My friend runs a skaven list with a verminlord AND a plague furnace AND a hell pit abomination. We house-ruled the stormbanner to one-use only. I run a fairly standard anvil (not thorek) gunline. 10x crossbow, 20x thunderer, 2x bolt thrower, cannon, grudge thrower, one beastly block of hammerers with bsb.

First game we played (I posted a battle report of this one) the storm banner only stayed on for one of my turns (also one of his). I scored a massacre. His luck was terrible, mine was close to optimum (I shot his abomination with my cannon THROUGH the stormbanner). The abomination and the verminlord are both highly vulnerable to shooting, and the plague furnace only slightly less so since you can pick it out of its unit to shoot at.

Second game we played, the storm banner stayed on for two of my turns, and he scored a massacre. I still managed to plink the furnace and the verminlord, but not quite the abomination, which personally killed nearly 900 points of units.

Based on these experiences, I would say that a plague furnace is great for its points, an abomination is practically mandatory in a combat-oriented skaven army, and a verminlord is a silly waste of a lot of points as it's too easy to shoot.

The slave bomb is silly good, IMO, if you can use it properly. I did ok against it because of dwarf armor, toughness, and everything having shields, but I'd hate to see what it would do to either kind of elves, or even empire infantry, etc.

When you say slave bomb, I hope your not talking about the "line them up 20 deep 1 slave wide" torpedo thing. Thats pretty much accepted as a errata fix, just like the Stormbanner.

No, just the fact that they explode at all.