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Flashman wrote:What do people reckon about the 13th Spell. Is it worth spending the whole game trying to cast it?

You either win big or lose big with it. You can wipe out a deathstar or kill off just a few guys.

Didn't somebody work out the probability of being successful against the possibility of a miscast?

EDIT - I'd work it myself, but my maths is shocking

Trying to cast it with anything less than 7 dice is generally pointless. Your chances of being successful are tiny.

5 dice getting > 24 ~ 7-8%. by quick simulation.

Just throw 3 dice at it and hope for a pair of 6's...

If I remember correctly, the 13th spell can't be augmented with additional dice - no warpstone tokens or power stones or anything. So - 5 dice and hope for 6's. Dark Elves with the ring and Slann with Becalming continue to laugh at you.
But if you do get it off - 4d6 models, average 14 dead enemy models with it. Personally I think it's better than Gateway, but limited a bit more in that it can only be cast on enemy infantry.

The problem with the 13th spell is that it can't be cast on stuff that's most dangerous for the rats such as big flying monsters and the like. It's really not a smart idea try to get this spell through as there should be other valid spells for the gray seer/verminlord to cast instead of a 25+ spell that really doesn't do that much. The best use for this is probably having it around when opponents miscasts 5-6.

I dont know... I always considered the most dangerous thing to be big blocks of stubborn troops like temple guard. Works great against them. Just to hard to get it consistently.

For what it costs, the warp lightning cannon really isn't that bad. Getting rid of the random distance is pretty nice, but with the added benefit of a small template at the end of the distance. So not only do you get a straight line shot through a unit, you can hope to get a good bounce and hit another unit as well. 5x4 unit on 20mm bases + template on center = 16 models hit I believe - oh yeah no partials, AS, D6 wounds, etc. etc. Rolling for Str - you have a 50% chance of getting a Str6 or higher, so basically your looking at wounding the majority of anything on 2s . . . . not really that bad. Adding in the fact that the crew has become T6 against magic or shooting - makes them a heck of a lot more surviveable.

I'm seeing more and more folks running the plague furnace - it's not bad for what it does I guess - people must really dig that unbreakable status. Of course, the unit being frenzied and so large could cause ALOT of problems if your opponent knows how to play it right.

I agree though that the 13th spell is great to have, just in case your opponent rolls a miscast - almost guaranteed to pull a dispel scroll. Limited though on units it can affect, I think Wither can be a MUCH more effective spell. Get it off once or twice and then get some plague censors in there - whew - bye bye enemy unit.

Slaves RAI vs RAW.

The rulebook entry for the 'slave explosion' says d3, st3 hits for front rank then 1 per rank after that.... but in the latest White Dwarf the guy who wrote the book explained that it was rank bonus only.

Fool should have had someone else read the book. We picked up on it immediately on reading, the insanity of the way it is written and planned 20 long conga lines of slaves....

I wondered why everyone was harping on about slave conga lines. Expect a skaven erratta/faq the day following release

It is simple, simple problems like this that can be fixed at the cost of a non disclosure agreement and getting someone outside the studio (has absolutely no other link to army book writing process) to proof read it for a couple of days.

There are plenty of top tourney gamers in the UK who would kill for the chance.

I agree that the wording for the unit should be "rank bonus" - however going off the White Dwarf stuff you have to watch out for. Remember the Warriors of Chaos battle rep that counted unit champions as characters for rolling on the EOTG table?
The down side to the skaven slave "congo line" is going to be the sheer length of the unit (it has to be angled to even fit in your deployment zone), as well as not getting the rank bonus to their leadership. Best they'll really be looking at is LD7 from the general. If someone tries running it though, after kicking them in the nuts, I'll be watching the wheeling movement VERY carefully.

The conga line can be deployed on an angle, move forward 9.5 inches (march) then wheel the half an inch to face directly forward. (as wheeling will be accross one 20mm base front and the rest of the conga line swings in a huge arc).
I agree it will be tought to pull off, but man it will be ridiculous.

Also for the Storm banner (one of the most ridiculous items ever in warhammer, and for 50 points SHOULD read 'one use only') my tactic with it will be (as I'm almost universally a tournament player (NGs at the moment)....

-Skaven player can use it at the start of any player turn.
-So as my opponent says that his turn is over I yell very quicky (and throw a dice that is in my hand at the same time) 'Animosity for that unit' (other arm is pointing at said unit).
-Player turn has already started.... sucked in can't use the storm banner.
-Gives me at least 1 turn of shooting.

Those slave missiles must be cheap too, considering how many points slaves cost. Aren't there no limits on the # of core units in Fantasy? Maybe the way to go would be to use, rather than a couple of Slave Nukes, several smaller Slave Scuds and rush your opponents battle line with 4 or 5 units of 10 Slave conga-lines.

WG: Heh... I like your tactic of "get started as soon as possible!!!"

Seems to me that it will be clarified to "one-use only".

Speaking of how ballsed-up the Skaven book is, I was pretty shocked by all the FAQ questions they've already gotten together over at TWF: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=65254.

Me, I'll be playing the most conservative, least abusive route as usual, but there are some things I flat out can't make a call on ...

- Salvage

Agree with Boss Salvage. Always try and stick to RAI if RAW is blatantly nonsense. The conga line is only going to wind up your opponents and cause arguments.

As the plague furnace is Ld 0- it is going to be massacred by an oldblood with the blade of realities.

Flashman: in another post it was talked about using the 13th spell if your opponent miscasts and roles the ' your opponent emmidiately gets to cast a spell result' try it then, if not id say only if you really really want to

Neat trick, bet that gets nerfed by 8th Edition

Personally? I like the "Skavenslave Torpedo" - a big long line of Slaves which abuse the "cornered rats" rule in order to cause huge amounts of damage to the enemy. you can fit 20 in two ranks from the start, then reform into one line and cause 20 (Okay, 19) D3 S3 hits when you break from combat straight after you charge.

Ungulateman - if any opponent pulls that torpedo tactic - I'll remind them of the Vampire Count "1 pt for the whole unit of Grave Guard to have great weapons" book mistake. Followed by a kick to the nuts.
Or charge them with a cheap flying unit basically in their deployment zone (reforming that many will be all their mvt) and watch the slave bomb go off in their face. Either way - it's definately RAI vs RAW.
To everyone who keeps saying the Stormbanner will get erratta'd - they don't usually FAQ in things like "One use only". They add in things like "D3 per rank BONUS" type of deal. Expect that sucker to stay there and torment all DE, WE and Elf players, as well as Empire gunlines.

Mattbranb wrote:1 pt for the whole unit of Grave Guard to have great weapons

What the dick, Gav Thorpe?

But the storm banner will do stuff all vs Ld bomb slaaneshi daemons, VCs with x2 units 3 fell bats or less (mostly what I see), and WOC without hellcannon/s, and brettonians, AND new beastmen, AND almost all of the ogre units (excepting leadbelchers on the flanks).

What it does do is make me not want to take a dragon to a tourney next year, despite spending almost $200 to get it converted and magnetised....

Im ok with that, the Banner isnt as powerful as you think. it can be used 3 times in the game. Its more to slow down the shooting and flying than stop it cold, and im happy that something does. One terror critter in the heart of a skaven line and its good bye units. or one painic test from shooting and its conga LD tests for an epic fail. Rats now have a item to defend against this, and i see no reason why they shouldnt, other armies get items that help negate their weeknesses, so its only fair. Limiting it to one use only is just silly.
Sorry by 3 times i mean that it can be used every other turn. so if you use it turn 1, you cant use it again till turn 3, so potentially 3 uses.

Ah nevermind - guess some of the foreign language Skaven books had "one use only" in their spell description. Misprint or something in the US book. Oh well - it's still an awesome banner.

cypher wrote:Yup, the storm banner is pretty awesome. I give it a 50/50 chance of being errata'ed to one use only. They left the dark elf ring o no magic in so they might leave the banner o no shooting in.

Suicide slaves are only ld 2, 7 if near the general. Not to hard to break from range. O, and its D3+20 not 20D6 hits.

Ld2, then add in ranks up to Ld 10, within 12 of general.

13th spell: No, its not worth the whole game trying to cast.

What, you do 4d6 wounds? you can get that with multiple castings of plague spells. Take it anyway, in case your opponent rolls the miscast that allows you to cast your own.

They have to let it go off, or use all of their remaining dice/scrolls to cancel it.

Or use powerstones and warp tokens to blast it out. tokens are pointless, too much risk, pay 5pts more and get powerstone dice.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:VCs with x2 units 3 fell bats or less (mostly what I see)

How will it do stuff all against this(I mean aside from the rest of the army)? Storm Banner still denies Flying Movement.

Waaagh I have to agree with Platuan4th - out of all those examples, the only one I could see it hurting are the fell bats (and 1stturn rushes with them I guess). Here's what I see the storm banner nerfing:

1. Dark Elf shooty armies
2. Empire gunlines
3. Lizardmen skink armies
4. Wood Elves
5. High Elves
6. Flamers
7. Orc Artillery
8. Dwarf gunlines, with the exception of grudgethrowers with runes on them

Now factor in it being errata'd to one use only (like old book), your still talking about 1 or 2 turns minimum of movement before it burns out. Combine that with Mr. Hellpit and/or some plague furnace units or PCB - your in the enemy lines already.
Tomb Kings have to be the ones who come out the best from it though - their archers will still hit on 5s and the screaming skulls will still work.