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dogma wrote:The idea that this creates V-esque conspiracy notions is just ridiculous.
Your missing the point here dogma, this is just a distraction.
Hope the soldier can find a way to cope with his loss though, that is heavy ass stuff. If I had both legs and an arm blown off, I would bite peoples heads off if they felt like trying to piss me off... then I would piss on them, using my godsend of an existing arm. This hand... this hand is like... well it is all I have left. That and this lotion... in case the joke was... umm, yeah.
Also... would it really be ridiculous to say, at least you have an arm left? Perhaps we can find a vet who not only lost both legs and an arm, but both legs and both arms. I mean really though... that is so much worse in my mind, I really cannot imagine how much worse it would be. You have an arm man, be proud of that arm... and stay foxy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/10/17 11:36:58
reds8n wrote:
Nice try, but that's not what I said. I know it existed.. I even linked to its original website archive. What you've got wrong is its purpose. It was nothing to do with "integration and delabelling". It was a marketing exercise, driven by capitalism and an attempt to bring more shoppers into Birmingham City Centre after a multi million £ revamp/rebufitting. There was no "happy Winterval" cards or festivals, it was a convenient catchphrase used to encourage people to get out and spend their money.
In other words a relabelling. All you are giving is the excuse for the relabelling.
The hypocrasy still exists, because at the time lots of money is spent on forwarding diversity and alternate cultures and practices Christmas is one way or another, under whatever spin you are using : being relabelled.
reds8n wrote:
Perhaps the most notorious of the anti-Christmas rebrandings is Winterval, in Birmingham, and when you telephone the Birmingham city council press office to ask about it, you are met first of all with a silence that might seasonably be described as frosty. "We get this every year," a press officer sighs, eventually. "It just depends how many rogue journalists you get in any given year. We tell them it's bollocks, but it doesn't seem to make much difference."
Apparently one of the principle points of 'equality and diversity' is respect and tolerance for cultures. If so they should stop adding fuel to the fire. It's blamed on rogue journalism but in fact it causes a lot of genuine offence to practicing Christians. Again on face value of the dogmas preached causing relgious offence should not be a highlight activity.
reds8n wrote:
According to an official statement from the council, Winterval - which ran in 1997 and 1998, and never since - was a promotional campaign to drive business into Birmingham's newly regenerated town centre. It began in early November and finished in January. During the part of that period traditionally celebrated as Christmas, "there was a banner saying Merry Christmas across the front of the council house, Christmas lights, Christmas trees in the main civil squares, regular carol-singing sessions by school choirs, and the Lord Mayor sent a Christmas card with a traditional Christmas scene wishing everyone a Merry Christmas".
They use Winterval at least twice, despite problems with offence caused. How many times do we hear 'such and such can not proceed in case it causes offence' whether or not offence is actually caused, however you can offend the indiginous culture as much as you like. This is what makes the PC hypocrasy especially grating. Look at the quote During the part of that period traditionally celebrated as Christmas hold on, dont you mean during Christmas? No the quote is during the part of Winterval called Christmas. Its a small cultural step, but such steps are accumulative.
reds8n wrote:
no "watering down" or attempts to deconstruct it as a generic "all faiths together" at all. To claim otherwise is pure hyperbole and paranoia if not outright lying.
Pure denial. They went ahead with it next year (last year). I can bet you they wouldnt paste over Eid, and didnt paste over Diwali.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Sorry Orlanth but the 'winterville' myth really is a red herring of epic proportions. Like reds8n has already pointed out (Thanks man) it was marketing campaign. Noting more, nothing less. All designed to bring money into the city and drum up trade. Nothing to do with promoting one festival over another. Nothing.
Looking over the links reds8n placed gave I cannot see how anyone who is Sane, logical and reasonable could possibly come to the conclusion that it was about usurping Christmas. None whatsoever. Personally I can only assume that the decision to claim that 'Winterville' was part of some devious conspiracy was concocted by someone who was either:
A) Paranoid to the point of insanity.
or
B) A devious and malicious git out to mislead people, for the purpose of either cheap point scoring and to stir up tensions.
My money is on B.
As for the 99% of PC stories claim. Well I admit that I made that number up, but I have personally cannot think of a single 'PC gorn maad' story I have read that with a little research and reasoning didn't turn out to be utter cobblers. Not one. I admit I haven't read them all, but I've yet to see anything to indicate that PC stories in the press are anything other than the worst kind of scaremongering.
Orlanth wrote:
reds8n wrote:
Nice try, but that's not what I said. I know it existed.. I even linked to its original website archive. What you've got wrong is its purpose. It was nothing to do with "integration and delabelling". It was a marketing exercise, driven by capitalism and an attempt to bring more shoppers into Birmingham City Centre after a multi million £ revamp/rebufitting. There was no "happy Winterval" cards or festivals, it was a convenient catchphrase used to encourage people to get out and spend their money.
In other words a relabelling. All you are giving is the excuse for the relabelling.
The hypocrasy still exists, because at the time lots of money is spent on forwarding diversity and alternate cultures and practices Christmas is one way or another, under
whatever spin you are using : being relabelled.
Not it's not. Using an all encompassing term for a Marketing campaign does not mean anything is being taken away from any of the individual events. If you see it that way then it's entirely in your eyes.
Orlanth wrote:
It's blamed on rogue journalism but in fact it causes a lot of genuine offence to practicing Christians. Again on face value of the dogmas preached causing relgious offence should not be a highlight activity.
Well then they are overly paranoid and need to get over themselves. No one is out to take away their precious Christmas.
Orlanth wrote:
Look at the quote During the part of that period traditionally celebrated as Christmas hold on, dont you mean during Christmas? No the quote is during the part of Winterval called Christmas. Its a small cultural step, but such steps are accumulative.
Christmas is one of many events that takes place in winter. Alongside Guy Fawkes Night, New Year, Chinese New Year, Winter Solstice, Diwali, Hanukkah, hell event St. Valentine's Day, not to mention plenty more I can't think of right now. Therefore 'part of that period (winter) traditionally celebrated as Christmas' is totally accurate in the context of the campaign. To see this perfectly innocent sentence as something sinister requires a level of paranoia I personally cannot comprehend.
That this nonsense gets brought out year after and that people keep swallowing it never fails to astonish me.
"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!"
... which is when....oh..hang on... during the exact same period the "winterval" period covered....so... "they".. have just as much right to complain and bitch as every other faith then ? Oh no, because that wouldn't fit on your soapbox.
In other words a relabelling
No.. an entirely separate thing which was hijacked by ignorant people with a chip on their shoulder.......
.....
Xmas is not being relabelled at all.. all they are dong is A: trying to get people to spend money in the new Town Centre and B : vaguely ( in the extreme ) making some effort to point out that other religious festivals occur around the same time. OH NOESS 11111
Apparently one of the principle points of 'equality and diversity' is respect and tolerance for cultures
yes.. agreed...
If so they should stop adding fuel to the fire
what fire ? The fire of ignorance and crass misinformation ? I don't see how that's possible when there's people out there who persistently cling to their version of what happened despite what actually happened ?
in fact it causes a lot of genuine offence to practicing Christians
what does ? BLatant lies told by those with their own agenda ? Or the acknowledgement of the existence of other faiths ? They didn't ban Xmas.. despite how often you and your ilk repeat this lie... or do the views of non christian suddenly not count ?
Pure denial.
Indeed. But, don't worry, the facts are out there.
Those would be those things entirely lacking from your last few posts. But they just get in the way anyway eh ?
I genuinely cannot see how when a local council puts money towards and advertises the switching on of the Xmas lights.. they are, at the same time, pretending Xmas doesn't exist.
Still.. doublethink FTW seemingly.
If you do have a problem, take it up with those who, effectively, whore out Xmas as just another chance to sell gak that people don't really need to people who can't afford it... except of course that would be directly against NEW TORY 101 of course.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/17 21:01:12
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Hmm, this went from teens making fun of disabled war Vets to conspiracy theories that UK is trying to take Xmas away (or something to that effect).
Here is my 2 cents. Christmas is too commercialized and if we want to get into the PC nonsense of it all, most places in the US are starting to shy away from anything mentioning Christmas out of fear of offending other religions or those that don't believe in the Christian spirt of Christmas. At my old job they stopped calling it a "Christmas" party because some atheist took offense at it do to it's connection to religion so now they have to call it a "Winter Celebration".
That is like so much BS and my old workplace isn't the only one I know of this happening at.
Christmas also means nothing anymore. Stores start putting up Xmas decorations as early as October, Christmas decorations are normally going on sale at retail outlets as early as late September. Christmas in the past 10 years has only one meaning.....money to the retail stores.
Ugh.
--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
The real Christmas is a Christian festival of the birth of Jesus, celebrated in church services. It's nothing to do with lights, trees, presents and so on.
garret wrote:Is this happened in america those kids would be either
A:beaten to a pulp by the guy with no legs.
B run from the guy bet get exusted after 10 feet.
I'm sorry, what? Are you implying that:
a) He could somehow manifest powers of levitation so he could attack them?
b) Anyone but someone who's morbidly obese would get exhausted after running ten feet, and even then why would they be running? I'd personally find it very hard to attack people if I had no legs.
THe joke is about
A) how tough are military forces are.
and
B) how fat our kids are.
-to many points to bother to count.
mattyrm wrote:i like the idea of a woman with a lobster claw for a hand touching my nuts. :-)
Wrexasaur wrote:
Your missing the point here dogma, this is just a distraction.
I suppose. I mean, its cruel for anyone to insult any handicapped human, but its considerably worse given the eventuality of the military mythos (not flame-bait, look up the word before you respond).
But still; 'The Chav'? Is that like 'The Jew'? Or 'The Commie'? I hate to be so antagonistic, but that rant was obscene. It reeked of an old man who has little understanding of the world in which he now lives.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
I think you misunderstood the sniper fox reference.
OP news article wrote:"He's determined to stay in the Army," said Mrs Weston.
"He has trialled with the 2012 Paralympics shooting team and he's going to receive coaching and possibly be in the team, which will be a great boost for Matthew.
I must have missed something though... who's rant?
dogma wrote:But still; 'The Chav'? Is that like 'The Jew'? Or 'The Commie'? I hate to be so antagonistic, but that rant was obscene. It reeked of an old man who has little understanding of the world in which he now lives.
dogma wrote:Also, that was a rant, but I don't recall saying rants were necessarily bad (a least not within recent memory).
My little tangent talk time at the end? I don't recall saying that rants were bad either, I was just confused by this part in your other post.
But still; 'The Chav'? Is that like 'The Jew'? Or 'The Commie'? I hate to be so antagonistic, but that rant was obscene.
I think that you were offended by my observations in terms of the lost limbs and such... but I am not sure. I can't see a point where I referenced "chavs and bogans", that is where I am mainly lacking understanding here. What in particular are you referring to here?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/18 08:09:47
... which is when....oh..hang on... during the exact same period the "winterval" period covered....so... "they".. have just as much right to complain and bitch as every other faith then ? Oh no, because that wouldn't fit on your soapbox.
LuciusAR wrote:
Christmas is one of many events that takes place in winter. Alongside Guy Fawkes Night, New Year, Chinese New Year, Winter Solstice, Diwali, Hanukkah, hell event St. Valentine's Day, not to mention plenty more I can't think of right now. Therefore 'part of that period (winter) traditionally celebrated as Christmas' is totally accurate in the context of the campaign. To see this perfectly innocent sentence as something sinister requires a level of paranoia I personally cannot comprehend.
Ok. Let us hit this on the head.
Winterval: 20 November to 30 December 1997
Guy Fawkes Night was Guy Fawkes Night
Diwali was Diwali
New Year was New Year
Chinese New Year was Chinese New Year
Christmas now that was Winterval.
Why stop a winter holiday on 30th December?
Now the next year it was extended, but that was just face saving because of the blatant focused relabelling of the year before.
Now the Winter Solstice was within Winterval but that is not a primary festival, and it is linked directly to Winter per se. Hannukah is also covered but Judaism doesn't celebrate outside its own community largely and is thus not affected by communal relabelling.
reds8n wrote:
In other words a relabelling
No.. an entirely separate thing which was hijacked by ignorant people with a chip on their shoulder.......
..... The ignorance?
reds8n wrote:
Indeed. But, don't worry, the facts are out there.
Those would be those things entirely lacking from your last few posts. But they just get in the way anyway eh ?
I genuinely cannot see how when a local council puts money towards and advertises the switching on of the Xmas lights.. they are, at the same time, pretending Xmas doesn't exist.
.... the chip on the shoulder?
reds8n wrote:
If you do have a problem, take it up with those who, effectively, whore out Xmas as just another chance to sell gak that people don't really need to people who can't afford it... except of course that would be directly against NEW TORY 101 of course.
The commercialism is a problem, we are seeing Christmas stuff for a month now, however the relabelling doesbnt effect that, after all the excuse for supporting Winterval was that it was a branding gimic. Christmas bears enough of those, however when the branding also includes limiting what message remains that is more concerning. Even the shops do not remove the name, they just add junk and profits.
Again I ask, why do it? Why cause this offense, and yes it did cause offense. Nice PC councils should be all about not causing offense, or does that only apply to minority religions?
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Guy Fawkes Night was Guy Fawkes Night
Diwali was Diwali
New Year was New Year
Chinese New Year was Chinese New Year
Christmas now that was Winterval.
Why stop a winter holiday on 30th December?
Winterval ran into January...
Also : no, Xmas was not Winterval.. xmas... was xmas... hence the carols, lights, cards, big feth off signs saying as such and so on. Winterval was a catch all term to describe the marketing drive to attract shoppers.
What actually happened was totally unoffensive.. unless you dislike trying to get people to shop I suppose... what is offensive is the way people cling to lies and disinformation and distort the truth to attempt to support their own agenda.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/18 13:43:01
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Xmas was not Winterval.. xmas... was xmas... hence the carols, lights, cards, big feth off signs saying as such and so on. Winterval was a catch all term to describe the marketing drive to attract shoppers.
What actually happened was totally unoffensive.. unless you dislike trying to get people to shop I suppose... what is offensive is the way people cling to lies and disinformation and distort the truth to attempt to support their own agenda.
This. In case no-one else here was, I was there, I lived through this in Birmingham, this and the stupid Daily Mail bull that resulted. This and a whole bunch of other faith related non-stories, for example, the winter time play that was about an islamic tale. 'Jerry Springer: The Opera' or whatever it was called. Those eejits wandering saying they're defending Britishness. Idiots can make up whatever issue they want, it doesn't simply become true cos they want it to. Brumagem is smarter than yaow!
Also : no, Xmas was not Winterval.. xmas... was xmas... hence the carols, lights, cards, big feth off signs saying as such and so on. Winterval was a catch all term to describe the marketing drive to attract shoppers.
What actually happened was totally unoffensive.. unless you dislike trying to get people to shop I suppose... what is offensive is the way people cling to lies and disinformation and distort the truth to attempt to support their own agenda.
Your own link shows that Winterval was set for 20th November to 30th December, and neatly bypassed most other events other than Christmas. It was a targetted relabelling.
reds8n wrote:
wiki with links. Hoary old right wing media myth that trots out around this time every year.
It was only the next year that Winterval was presumably extended, and very likely in order to mask the embarassment from the previous year by extending what else it included, which still likely didn't relabel Diwali and Chines New Year, as shown below.
You can deny this until you are blue in the face, but its what you wanted to point out as true before.
The exact start dates for second winterval is not listed in the above site you linked to.
I have yet to determine exact start dates but Diwali was from 7th November that year and was very likely not included in the relabelling. Most of the Winterval complaint articles date from shortly after Diwali, though in fairness that is not definitive. Though 42 days from within three days after Diwali in 1998 would end just before New Year, suprise, suprise. Either way after a bit of digging it doesnt reach from October to January as first indicated.
You have yet to give a satisfactory answer as to why only a portion of the festivals of the time should be relabelled if there was no targeting.
Do you argue that New Year is not a 'winter festival'?
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
@Orlanth: The city council could have tried all it liked to re-name Christmas 'Winterval' and would have failed horribly anyway. Everyone would have still called it Christmas. They knew this just as well as they knew all the free knee-jerk publicity it would garner would translate into more shiny coins being spent in their big new shopping centre.
And hell, if it worked one year, why not try it again?
@O.P: A very sorry state of affairs indeed. We should take the safety labels off everything for a year and let the 'chav problem' solve itself
1500pts
Gwar! wrote:Debate it all you want, I just report what the rules actually say. It's up to others to tie their panties in a Knot. I stopped caring long ago.
Wrexasaur wrote:
My little tangent talk time at the end? I don't recall saying that rants were bad either, I was just confused by this part in your other post.
Oh! Not your rant, Orlanth's rant. Sorry, should have been specific.
I think that you were offended by my observations in terms of the lost limbs and such... but I am not sure. I can't see a point where I referenced "chavs and bogans", that is where I am mainly lacking understanding here. What in particular are you referring to here?
Orlanth's wall of text. Sorry about that.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
If you have a problem with what I said why not try and argue it rather than just try and hand wave it all away.
Others have focused on one small part, not provided any evidence to refute me, just blanket denials and accusations of ignorance which have since been shot down with a bit of research.
If you think what I said wrong tell us all how and why.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Even on the internets you get reasonable websites where logic is mostly followed, but still some remain who will blindly deny a logical arguement, with little more than 'its not true, because I/we say its not, so anyone who thinks so is an idiot'.
I dont actually expect to reason with such people, but their volume may turn people against an opposed arguement without engaging in logical debate. After noone wants to be thought an idiot, so its safer not to engage the debate.
Dogma is ironically for his name a reaonable chap who I have crossed logic swords with before, and if he has a reason to think I am wrong he is more than capable of saying so without resorting to blanket denial.
If I wasnt on Dakka I wouldnt have bothered trying to put the points forward, but good debate can occur here, and we can have opposed religion and politics debated here without lock for page after page.
Dogma is right that my 'text wall' posts were too long and in hindsight should have been broken down into bite sized chunks.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
In general I am suspicious of any opinion which claims the existence of a national character, so that was my first point of reservation. Two other issues were your discussion of bs, and the mention of empowerment as the primary cause of chav shenanigans.
With regard to the bs I would point out that virtually every human enterprise is manifested from the stuff. The real question is not whether or not something is bs, but whether or not any given kind of bs is useful.
Concerning empowerment I have a question. Are you speaking specifically of the counseling provided to already troubled children, or the theory in general?
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
-to many points to bother to count.
1500pts
