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That one is also good. Cancels is just fast, and we are laid back enough about this stuff where I play that its not big deal.

The 4d6 argument is utter crap though.

Wasn't this already covered in the FAQ for the last tyranid codex?

from the tyranid FAQ:

"Q: How do the Eldar Runes of Witnessing work when facing a hive tyrant with shadow in the warp?
A: The runes neutralise the effect of the shadow in the warp for that Farseer, so the Farseer will take psychic tests using 2d6 as normal."

chromedog wrote:Wasn't this already covered in the FAQ for the last tyranid codex?

from the tyranid FAQ:

"Q: How do the Eldar Runes of Witnessing work when facing a hive tyrant with shadow in the warp?
A: The runes neutralise the effect of the shadow in the warp for that Farseer, so the Farseer will take psychic tests using 2d6 as normal."

4th ed SitW is completely different to 5th ed SitW, so the FAQ is invalid.

Haven't read the 5th ed codex yet (but since I'm getting out of 40k anyway, that's not important).

So if I understand the argument right, eldar pay extra points to increase the chances of their powers going off.
But nid psychic defence should completely negate any of these bonuses, therefore 4d6 is the most fair, because it doesnt actually make it worse for eldar then just straight up 3d6 with no runes.

What are you on about? Please read the thread before posting stuff like this.

The straight 3d6 results in about a 50% chance to pass the test.

The Straight runes (3d6 discard highest) results in a 98% chance to pass the test.

Then you have the 2d6 which is a 92% chance so very small difference so basically ignoring Shadows.

Or the 4d6 which results in a 73% chance right in the middle of the Shadows effect without runes and the runes effect without shadows. How is that not fair?

The Warding vs Witnessing precedent doesn't apply because that was rules within one codex. This is how 2 different armies interact. Thus the decision will greatly effect game balance.

Please read the thread as ALL of this has been covered before.

I have read the whole thread. Asking me to do it again isnt a counter argument.

point to be made for those that have burnt their old codex
4th Tyranids :-Shadow 3D6 discounting the lowest roll ... no peril
5th Tyranid :-Shadow Test on 3d6 peril on an double 1 or 6

I have read the whole thread. Asking me to do it again isnt a counter argument.

So were you deliberately lying then when you claimed that using the 4d6 method made no change from just using the shadows rules with this statement:

But nid psychic defence should completely negate any of these bonuses

Or are you lying now about having read the thread?

FlingitNow wrote:

I have read the whole thread. Asking me to do it again isnt a counter argument.

So were you deliberately lying then when you claimed that using the 4d6 method made no change from just using the shadows rules with this statement:

No, I think canceling each other is the best way. Or maybe roll 3d6 and remove the lowest.

But nid psychic defence should completely negate any of these bonuses

Or are you lying now about having read the thread?

Error in spelling, meant to say shouldnt

No, I think canceling each other is the best way. Or maybe roll 3d6 and remove the lowest.

So you think that 2d6 (ingoring both rules) is the best way other than maybe just completely ignoring Shadows and ONLY apply Witnessing?

Lets look at the stats AGAIN:

2d6 (standard) = 92%
3d6 discarding lowest (Witnessing) = 98%
3d6 totalled (shadows) = 50%

So what looks lik ethe fairest solution taking the above into account? Well as normal or with runes the Eldar would pass 92-98% so not a huge difference. Without runes and with shadow that dramatically drops to 50%. So if you average 50% and even say the witnessing of 98% that is 74% as a fair middle ground. given that which method is best:

2d6 = 92%
3d6 (discarding) = 98%
4d6 (discarding) = 73%

Do you really think either of the first 2 options come even close to retaining game balance?

Error in spelling, meant to say shouldnt

Fair enough

What about 3d6 discarding the lowest

What about 3d6 discarding the lowest

Sorry totally miss-read your post. Being stupid.

3d6 discard the lowest is 82% success so about half way betweeen 4d6 and 2d6 methods. This favours the Eldar a bit but is not too bad.

Ill shoot yakface an email. 76% isnt so bad, seems a little extreme though. With warlocks in the squad it wont make a difference anyways. Guess ill play with 4d6 for friendly and 3d6 take away lowest in more competitive or something, see what INAT says.

FlingitNow wrote:

What about 3d6 discarding the lowest

Sorry totally miss-read your post. Being stupid.

3d6 discard the lowest is 82% success so about half way betweeen 4d6 and 2d6 methods. This favours the Eldar a bit but is not too bad.

It does not 'favor' the eldar. the eldar have an ability that raises 92% to 99%, 82% favors the tyranids.

further, whats fair means nothing, its what the rules say that matters, 3d6 ignore highest result for powers success.

TakeABow wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:

What about 3d6 discarding the lowest

Sorry totally miss-read your post. Being stupid.

3d6 discard the lowest is 82% success so about half way betweeen 4d6 and 2d6 methods. This favours the Eldar a bit but is not too bad.

It does not 'favor' the eldar. the eldar have an ability that raises 92% to 99%, 82% favors the tyranids.

As opposed to 4D6 discard the highest, which is a 50% chance, yeah it favors the Eldar.

mon-keigh slayer wrote:further, whats fair means nothing, its what the rules say that matters, 3d6 ignore highest result for powers success.

But that ignores SotW.

No rule asks you to roll on 4D6, or anything other than 2D6 or 3D6 for psychic tests. So there is no reason to compare it to a 4D6 rule.

TakeaBow - yet the two rules cannot both be followed.

The idea of Runes is to reduce the chance of failing the test. The idea of SitW is to increase the chances of failing the test.

As you are reduced (until a FAQ stating otherwise) to finding a compromise position - and this compromise position, mathematically, is 4D6 remove the highest, as you have both followed the *idea* behind both rules and ended up with a result midway between the two.

It does not 'favor' the eldar. the eldar have an ability that raises 92% to 99%, 82% favors the tyranids.

The Tyranids have an ability that lowers 92% to 50%. 82% definitely favours the Eldar as it is nearer to their result than the tyranids (98% compared to 50%, mid point being 74%).

No rule asks you to roll on 4D6, or anything other than 2D6 or 3D6 for psychic tests. So there is no reason to compare it to a 4D6 rule.

It was a typo the 3d6 is the one that makes the 50% chance.

4d6 makes a 74% chance midway between the 2 effects.

further, whats fair means nothing, its what the rules say that matters, 3d6 ignore highest result for powers success.

One rule says this the other rule demands that you compare the total of 3d6 with leadership for the powers sucess...

The idea of Runes is to reduce the chance of failing the test. The idea of SitW is to increase the chances of failing the test.

As you are reduced (until a FAQ stating otherwise) to finding a compromise position - and this compromise position, mathematically, is 4D6 remove the highest, as you have both followed the *idea* behind both rules and ended up with a result midway between the two.

QTF.

Of course, if one wishes to make it as absolutely fair as possible, one can always just do the d6 roll off to see which power is used each time they come into conflict. Each rule has a 50% chance of being followed completely, giving their side an advantage on that check. Not only is that perfectly fair from a percentage point of view, it also has the advantage of not creating any new rules.


Otherwise, why not roll 5d6 and take the middle 3 rolled? Or 5d6 and take the lowest two and the 4th lowest? Surely if we roll enough dice and take the right combination we will come closer to an average split on "fairness". Perhaps the mathematics favors rolling 17d6, taking the 3rd, 7th and 8th? Or until we get a faq we can just evenly split the difference.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Of course, if one wishes to make it as absolutely fair as possible, one can always just do the d6 roll off to see which power is used each time they come into conflict. Each rule has a 50% chance of being followed completely, giving their side an advantage on that check. Not only is that perfectly fair from a percentage point of view, it also has the advantage of not creating any new rules.


Otherwise, why not roll 5d6 and take the middle 3 rolled? Or 5d6 and take the lowest two and the 4th lowest? Surely if we roll enough dice and take the right combination we will come closer to an average split on "fairness". Perhaps the mathematics favors rolling 17d6, taking the 3rd, 7th and 8th? Or until we get a faq we can just evenly split the difference.


Sliggoth

Thank you but those methods seem overly complicated and/or wrong. 3D6 re-roll the highest or 4D6 drop the lowest, are the simplest and most balanced falling between the two rolls.

... and in the case of D6 fine it becomes roughly 75% odds that it works but really it seems ugly doing it that way.

no, 3d6 ignore highest follows siyw and rowi, sitw says test on 3d6, roll 3 dice and sitw iss satisfied until its time to check for perils, which is after you see if the power goes off, ignorinng the highest d6 as per runes.
no ambiguity at all, sorry but eldar psychic shenanigans laugh at shadow, much as they should.

Sorry mks, you are entirelyt wrong.

SitW *requires that you TAKE THE TEST* on 3D6. You have not done so, you have taken the test on 2D6.

Please read before posting, this has been covered many times before.

Having read this thread through I can say, if you take the test on 3d6 and drop the highest the test was still taken on 3d6 you just dropped the highest as you ROLLED 3d6 FOR THE TEST (see I can capitalize too) and all you did was take out a RESULT of a roll.

Say what you will but I will not get sucked into this circular argument and you will not change my opinion.

Good day.

^^^ QFT

CrazyThang wrote:Having read this thread through I can say, if you take the test on 3d6 and drop the highest the test was still taken on 3d6 you just dropped the highest as you ROLLED 3d6 FOR THE TEST (see I can capitalize too) and all you did was take out a RESULT of a roll.

Say what you will but I will not get sucked into this circular argument and you will not change my opinion.

Good day.

I too felt that way ... untill i was reminded that Shadow of the warp is missing the perril on rolls oer 12+ (which is why the two runes can work in tandom against one another) ... which basically means that there is a Tiny increase in the chance of peril and not much else

2D6 vs LD10 = 91.6% chance of casting 5.5% chance of perril
3D6 vs LD10 = 50% chance of casting and 14.8% chance of perril (shadow)
3D6 drop the highest vs Ld10 = 98.1% chance of casting and 7.8 chance of perril (runes of witness)

4D6 drop the highest vs Ld10 = 72.9% chance of casting and 16.7% chance of perril
3D6* vs Ld10 = 98.1% and 14.8% chance of peril
*drop the highest to pass, check all 3D6 for double 1's and 6's
3d6 rerolling highest = 70.1% chance of passing and 15.8% chance of peril

... when i first worked this out i factored in the 12+ peril which seemed to make 3D6* fair( It gave a 50% chance of peril which is a massive increase). However it doesn't and after correcting my mistake it becomes clear that there are only 3 options, Take a test on 4D6 dropping the highest, testing on 3D6 rerolling the highest or they cancel out test on 2D6 as normal.

Most likely GW will go with a normal 2D6 LD test but its not the farest solution.

Well I suppose I should have actually paid attention to all the mathammer earlier in the thread... ugh... hoisted by my own... well you know the rest.

Edit:
Maths aside, it's still RaW to use 3d6 drop highest.

Thats irrelevant, perils has no bearing on this discussion, you, the fact that perils triggers differently doesnt make them suddenly interact differently than if sitw had not changed the perils rules ....

roll 3 ignore the highest for power success check the 3 dice for perils.

You still havent taken the test on 3D6, which is what Sitw requires you to do.

"Taking the test" is rolling the dice, adding them up and comparing to your leadership. That is how "taking the test" is defined. If you have rolled three dice and removed one *before* checking the total, which is what you are stating mon-keigh slayer, then you have NOT taken the test on 3D6 - you have taken the test on 2D6. Which means you are breaking the rules for SitW.

If you are breaking the rules for one power what makes you think you are following them? Please ex[plain with some reference to actual rules this time, that would be slightly more helpful.

Can you point to the page that defines "taking the test"? Can you refrence actual rules?