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how about a bottle of vodka?



G

Brother Ramses, bear in mind that 40k is a game in which special rules make specific-case exceptions to general rules.

While Deep Striking does work hand-in-hand with most Reserve and Movement phase rules, the statement that you can place the model anywhere on the table may well be intended as an exception to the 1" rule and the Impassible terrain rules. It could certainly be more explicit, but I believe the preponderence of the evidence leans more toward the "Mawloc can try to DS right onto my units" side.

And I'm happy to make the same wager with you that I've made with GBF, assuming we'll be at a GT together this year or next where one of us can buy the other a beer.

Steve- could do. I usually like a drink as a wager, but if you'd prefer a bottle, I could do that. Any preference?

If you all are right, it just boggles me why GW would make something so completely OP. I mean for 200 pts you get something that eats HQ units or anything that doesn't have an invulnerable save. It even potentially kills tanks, transports, super heavies and titans.

Warmachine's looking better and better each day.

Just a 1/3 chance of a HIT. If you're up against it, I recommend keeping your more expensive stuff buttoned up in transports, and killing the thing ASAP when it surfaces.

The odds of killing stuff like Land Raiders and titans are remote and require extremely ideal and unlikely conditions.

I play tau, it'll eat my tanks and transports just as easily as my troops.

I don't have anything with greater than a rear armor 10.

Ragnar I'll bring a bottle of raspberry Absolut.

G

Brother Ramses wrote:

Without Reserves or the Movement Phase, you cannot Deep Strike. That is why I listed them as the path needed to Deep Strike.

To keep screaming out anywhere, anywhere, anywhere is not following RAW. The Deep Strike rule, on its own, is unplayable. Please, tell me how you can Deep Strike without having the Reserves or the Movement Phase? Reserves tells you how/when and Movement tells you how/when. They refine how Deep Strike is used so that it is playable.

To say that ANYWHERE is the override is wrong since the rule does not end with Deep Strike and ANYWHERE. It is overridden by whatever may be in the Reserve rules and then overridden by whatever is in the Movement Phase, including on or within 1" of an enemy model.

Are you seriously denying that the exact wording of the Deep Strike rule does not include a sentence that reads, "...place the model anywhere on the table..."? I'll presume not. The crux of your argument seems to me that this rule doesn't say, or at the very least, imply what it seems to. You hold that models/units that deep strike must adhere to the Movement restrictions found in the Movement phase of the rulebook. If there were any further restrictions placed upon where you may deep strike within the deep strike rule mechanic I would be inclined to agree with you. But there is none. The general Movement rule restrictions do not override the specifics found within the deep strike rule mechanic.

-Yad

Like a virgin...

Or some Espresso Vodka.

Mannahnin wrote:Brother Ramses, bear in mind that 40k is a game in which special rules make specific-case exceptions to general rules.

While Deep Striking does work hand-in-hand with most Reserve and Movement phase rules, the statement that you can place the model anywhere on the table may well be intended as an exception to the 1" rule and the Impassible terrain rules. It could certainly be more explicit, but I believe the preponderence of the evidence leans more toward the "Mawloc can try to DS right onto my units" side.

And I'm happy to make the same wager with you that I've made with GBF, assuming we'll be at a GT together this year or next where one of us can buy the other a beer.

Steve- could do. I usually like a drink as a wager, but if you'd prefer a bottle, I could do that. Any preference?

Deep Strike ONLY works with Reserves and the Movement Phase. To say it works hand in hand would stipulate an equal workload. Reserves works without Deep Strike and the Movement Phase works without Deep Strike. Deep Strike is wholly dependent on both to operate within the game rules and environment.

So while I do agree that there are cases where special rules give case-exceptions, in this case you have a rule (Deep Strike) wholly dependent on two other rules and therefore must follow the tenets of those rules as well. To say that ANYWHERE dictates you then forget the other two rules that cause Deep Strike to function despite them being the only possible ways for the rule to function seems kinda obtuse.

I see it as that you can indeed Deep Strike anywhere on the table, with exception to the basic tenets of the Reserves and the Movement Phase, of which Deep Strike is impossible without. That is much more RAW then just continually shouting out ANYWHERE.

!I'm truly impressed.

G

Brother Ramses wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Brother Ramses, bear in mind that 40k is a game in which special rules make specific-case exceptions to general rules.

While Deep Striking does work hand-in-hand with most Reserve and Movement phase rules, the statement that you can place the model anywhere on the table may well be intended as an exception to the 1" rule and the Impassible terrain rules. It could certainly be more explicit, but I believe the preponderence of the evidence leans more toward the "Mawloc can try to DS right onto my units" side.

And I'm happy to make the same wager with you that I've made with GBF, assuming we'll be at a GT together this year or next where one of us can buy the other a beer.

Steve- could do. I usually like a drink as a wager, but if you'd prefer a bottle, I could do that. Any preference?

Deep Strike ONLY works with Reserves and the Movement Phase. To say it works hand in hand would stipulate an equal workload. Reserves works without Deep Strike and the Movement Phase works without Deep Strike. Deep Strike is wholly dependent on both to operate within the game rules and environment.

So while I do agree that there are cases where special rules give case-exceptions, in this case you have a rule (Deep Strike) wholly dependent on two other rules and therefore must follow the tenets of those rules as well. To say that ANYWHERE dictates you then forget the other two rules that cause Deep Strike to function despite them being the only possible ways for the rule to function seems kinda obtuse.

I see it as that you can indeed Deep Strike anywhere on the table, with exception to the basic tenets of the Reserves and the Movement Phase, of which Deep Strike is impossible without. That is much more RAW then just continually shouting out ANYWHERE.

You're coming at it from the wrong direction. The general Movement phase restrictions do not override the Deep Strike model placement rule. You are in effect inserting your own language into the Deep Strike rule mechanic.

"...place the model anywhere, subject to the usual movement restrictions found in the Movement section of the rulebook, on the table..."

-Yad

Gwar! wrote:The thing is, just because you might not have a reason to do so, does not mean that they cannot do it, which is what GBF seems to be arguing, despite Spore Mines and Monoliths doing so (and having a reason to) for years now.

Why on earth would anyone want to DS a monolith in 5th Ed?

Andrew

Well, I have two mawlocs assembled and painted, and IF GW FAQs that they cannot target a unit for their ability that coincidentally occurs prior to placing the mawloc's model, then I will gladly give them away as the worst points anybody could ever spend in the 'nid codex. I only say prior because it goes over how a large blast template is placed that hits for str6 ap2. Then Models are moved out of the way so the mawloc can be placed.

I'm fairly new to these forums, but I have to ask, when the IG 'dex came out, did people whine about alpha strike gunlines this much? Because it seems to me that GW just has come up with a way to discourage people from deploying in castled-up firebases. But that is just a newcomers perspective.

Yad wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Brother Ramses, bear in mind that 40k is a game in which special rules make specific-case exceptions to general rules.

While Deep Striking does work hand-in-hand with most Reserve and Movement phase rules, the statement that you can place the model anywhere on the table may well be intended as an exception to the 1" rule and the Impassible terrain rules. It could certainly be more explicit, but I believe the preponderence of the evidence leans more toward the "Mawloc can try to DS right onto my units" side.

And I'm happy to make the same wager with you that I've made with GBF, assuming we'll be at a GT together this year or next where one of us can buy the other a beer.

Steve- could do. I usually like a drink as a wager, but if you'd prefer a bottle, I could do that. Any preference?

Deep Strike ONLY works with Reserves and the Movement Phase. To say it works hand in hand would stipulate an equal workload. Reserves works without Deep Strike and the Movement Phase works without Deep Strike. Deep Strike is wholly dependent on both to operate within the game rules and environment.

So while I do agree that there are cases where special rules give case-exceptions, in this case you have a rule (Deep Strike) wholly dependent on two other rules and therefore must follow the tenets of those rules as well. To say that ANYWHERE dictates you then forget the other two rules that cause Deep Strike to function despite them being the only possible ways for the rule to function seems kinda obtuse.

I see it as that you can indeed Deep Strike anywhere on the table, with exception to the basic tenets of the Reserves and the Movement Phase, of which Deep Strike is impossible without. That is much more RAW then just continually shouting out ANYWHERE.

You're coming at it from the wrong direction. The general Movement phase restrictions do not override the Deep Strike model placement rule. You are in effect inserting your own language into the Deep Strike rule mechanic.

"...place the model anywhere, subject to the usual movement restrictions found in the Movement section of the rulebook, on the table..."

-Yad

I am not inserting anything anywhere. Explain the process of Deep Striking to me then? At what point in your explanation are you NOT in the Movement Phase. So at what point are you then NOT subject to placing a model on or within 1"?

Sure, place your model anywhere, but remember you are Deep Striking in the Movement Phase and you cannot place your model on or within 1" of a model unless in the assault phase.

agnosto wrote:I play tau, it'll eat my tanks and transports just as easily as my troops.

I don't have anything with greater than a rear armor 10.

It can't assault on the turn it arrives and it has no ranged weapons. Tau have lots of ranged weapons. Move 12" away from it and use them on the Mawloc.

agnosto wrote:If you all are right, it just boggles me why GW would make something so completely OP. I mean for 200 pts you get something that eats HQ units or anything that doesn't have an invulnerable save. It even potentially kills tanks, transports, super heavies and titans.

If you think GW wouldn't release a unit that has the potential to absolutely slaughter models without invulnerable saves take a look at the Doom of Malan'tai. No armor save, no cover save because it's not a shooting attack. Just a straight up leadership test on 3d6 or things start dying. And it is even cheaper than the Mawloc and can do things the moment it arrives. It has the potential for a 48", S10 large blast, and unlike the Mawloc it has a BS score so it can reduce the scatter potential.

The Mawloc doesn't instantly destroy anything it comes up underneath. Things only get instantly destroyed if it is impossible to move them out from underneath the blast marker because of other models or terrain. Otherwise it is just a S6, AP2 hit that can only come up from reserves, can scatter and can't be used again the next turn, or ever if you tie the thing up in h2h.

I don't think it's as terrifying a unit as everyone makes it out to be. All it does is force you not to cluster up your guys in a super tight ball. If you are losing entire HQ squads and scores of tanks to a Mawloc you should look at how you are positioning your units.

Brother Ramses wrote:words

the part where Specific>general, and Deep strike is a specific special rule that specifically says you can place your models anywhere, compared to the general rule where you can generally only move within 1" in the assault phase.

Demogerg wrote:the part where Specific>general, and Deep strike is a specific special rule that specifically says you can place your models anywhere, compared to the general rule where you can generally only move within 1" in the assault phase.

Exactly.

The rules governing the entire movement phase are more general than the rules which apply only to deep strike.
Deep strike is a specific thing which falls under the general category of movement.

One of the basic things we need to do in order to make sense of the BRB and codices, is that specific rules take precedence over more general rules.

When the specific rule for deep strike says "anywhere", it technically contradicts the more general rules for movement.

Brother Ramses is trying to limit the specific rules' version of "anywhere" to restrict it to anywhere within the limitations of the more general movement rules - in effect trying to satisfy both rules as much as possible without breaking either.

On the other hand, I and many others, are resolving the conflict by recognising that a specific rules overrides a more general rule, and therefore that "anywhere" really does mean "anywhere". It overrides the more general rule, and is not bound by it.

Brother Ramses wrote:Sure, place your model anywhere, but remember you are Deep Striking in the Movement Phase and you cannot place your model on or within 1" of a model unless in the assault phase.

Things happen in the shooting phase that don't follow the rules of shooting. The Doom of Malan'Tai's ability is a perfect example. Things also happen in the movement phase that don't follow the rules of movement. Just because something occurs in a certain phase of a turn does not automatically imbue the rules for standard actions onto them.

Demogerg wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:words

the part where Specific>general, and Deep strike is a specific special rule that specifically says you can place your models anywhere, compared to the general rule where you can generally only move within 1" in the assault phase.

"Anywhere" is about the least specific word you could imagine.

PLease look at Sweeping Advance and ATSKNF for an example of what GW mean by specific. Hint: "Anywhere" is not nearly specific enough.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Demogerg wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:words

the part where Specific>general, and Deep strike is a specific special rule that specifically says you can place your models anywhere, compared to the general rule where you can generally only move within 1" in the assault phase.

"Anywhere" is about the least specific word you could imagine.

PLease look at Sweeping Advance and ATSKNF for an example of what GW mean by specific. Hint: "Anywhere" is not nearly specific enough.

I don't believe Demogerg was specifically addressing the word anywhere, but rather the Deep Strike mechanic as a whole. That is, rules pertaining to the placement and movement of models within the Deep Strike mechanic, unless otherwise specified, override the restrictions found in the Movement section. But I'll leave to Demogreg to explain himself if he feels the need to

-Yad

Except they cannot do so, as they still require the movement phase rules to work.

They can work just fine. The deep striking models don't need to move after they are placed. The mishap table prevents any invalid situations from occurring, you don't need the movement rules to resolve the mishap table.

So can I shoot trygons and mawlocs with the sub-shell the thunderfire cannon shoots?

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Demogerg wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:words

the part where Specific>general, and Deep strike is a specific special rule that specifically says you can place your models anywhere, compared to the general rule where you can generally only move within 1" in the assault phase.

"Anywhere" is about the least specific word you could imagine.

PLease look at Sweeping Advance and ATSKNF for an example of what GW mean by specific. Hint: "Anywhere" is not nearly specific enough.

I don't believe Demogerg was specifically addressing the word anywhere, but rather the Deep Strike mechanic as a whole. That is, rules pertaining to the placement and movement of models within the Deep Strike mechanic, unless otherwise specified, override the restrictions found in the Movement section. But I'll leave to Demogreg to explain himself if he feels the need to

-Yad

Yad's explation will suffice just fine.

Bro Ram wrote:I see it as that you can indeed Deep Strike anywhere on the table, with exception to the basic tenets of the Reserves and the Movement Phase, of which Deep Strike is impossible without. That is much more RAW then just continually shouting out ANYWHERE.

Actually, RAW means Rules As Written, not Rules as Wished.

For instance:

You WISH the rules said: "you can indeed Deep Strike anywhere on the table, with exception to the basic tenets of the Reserves and the Movement Phase, of which Deep Strike is impossible without."

The Rules ACTUALLY say: "the model is placed anywhere on the table."

The end.

Done.

Bye bye.

EDIT: And it doesn't matter how much wishing you and blaze and GBF do, the wording in the rulebook won't change.

apwill4765 wrote:
The Rules ACTUALLY say: "the model is placed anywhere on the table."

My model isn't the ta.....you know what, I'm tired; I'm going to go take a nap.

Please BR, Deep Strike any of your models without the Movement Phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:Please BR AND Apwil, Deep Strike any of your models without the Movement Phase.

agnosto wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:
The Rules ACTUALLY say: "the model is placed anywhere on the table."

My model isn't the ta.....you know what, I'm tired; I'm going to go take a nap.

Not considered part of 'on the table', right? Wrong. That's a slippery slope to run down. Where does that stop? Everything, the game table; the flock; the terrain; the models, are all 'on the table' and in play. All models/units must adhere to the movement restrictions put forth in the Movement section of the rules. Deep Striking models, skimmers, wraiths, all have their own exceptions to these restrictions.

Now, nobody is actually going to physically place a model on top of yours, so I wouldn't even consider that a feasible counter-argument. Do you allow the Monolith the deep strike directly into an enemy unit/model?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except they cannot do so, as they still require the movement phase rules to work.

Oh boy. No, it only requires the Movement Phase because that is when the Deep Strike is carried out. It doesn't need the Movement rules to 'work'.

We've run over this ground a dozen times now, and boy it's getting tiring. It may be time to close this thread until a ruling is made. I'll put up a sixpack that GW rules our way, though, since it's RaW.

Though I agree with you wholeheartedly yad