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I remeber Willson's Hussars, I actualy ran them for a while.

Allrightie, slight drift here - and be forewarned, a long post ahead.

I was wondering how the old (3025) mechs stacked up in armor protection. Not so much in absolute terms, but relative to the maximum weight of armor the designs could have carried. And I discovered a few surprises...

But first, the 10 Best Armored Mechs (relative to theorectical maximum). There are lots of ties here, so bear with me, my 10 best winds up being 16.

1) Atlas / Thunderbolt: 99%
2) Orion: 97%
3) Archer / Grasshopper: 96%
4) Hunchback: 95%
5) Goliath/Vindicator: 94%
6) Whitworth: 93%
7) Locust: 92% (Surprise!)
8) Crusader / UrbanMech / Valkrye: 91%
9) Blackjack: 89%
10) Battlemaster / Hermes II: 88%

Honorable mention to the Panther (just missed the top 10 at 87%), the Phoenix Hawk (all that speed and firepower, and still rates an 84%), and the classic medium triplets - Griffin, Shadow Hawk, and Wolverine - at 82%


But what would a best 10 list be without a worst 10 to compare them to?

10) Dervish / Charger: 65%
9) Quickdraw: 64%
8) Javelin: 61%
7) Ottscout / Scorpion / Rifleman: 60%
6) Vulcan (my personal shame. : 58%
5) Cyclops: 57%
4) Jenner: 54%
3) Assassin / Clint / Spider: 53%
2) Cicada: 47%
1) Jagermech: 45%

Dishonorable mention goes to the Hatchetman. Designed first and foremost for close assault, it narrowly missed the bottom 10 at 68%. And that's before correcting it to pay for that hatchet, which they didn't do in my printing of the book...

And what were they thinking, giving the premeir command and control barely half it's maximum protection? If there was ever a mech that needed maximum armor, the Cyclops was it.

The Cyclops isn't designed for line combat. It sits back at a base and uses the communications suite it has. It is armed for when people find it.

Besides, with an engine that size you can only do so much. As it is, you just get a slightly faster, half the armor Atlas.

That's a pretty cool compare and contrast thing you have going on there. With the exceptions of Jenner, Assassin, and possibly Clint, the bottom list is pretty much all the mechs I hated getting stuck with. With the exception of Urbanwreck, Goliath, and Hermes II, the top list is pretty much all mechs I consider to be fairly decent success stories.

I think the underarmored mechs are usually that way because of poor weapon allocation usually involving mounting autocannons which, while good on heat, weigh way too much for smaller mechs (Clint, HermesII, Jager, Rifle, Vulc all good examples). The other culprit is engines far too big compensating for the fact that the mech is too heavy for its own good. The Cyclops, Cicada, Quickdraw all good examples of "why don't you just make it 10 tons lighter? You'll get more armor and still carry the same weapons".

Once upon a time When I was really bored I started experimenting around with ideas like making an exact duplicate of a Quickdraw but 5 tons lighter just to see how much more efficient it was, or trying out a 80 ton Cyclops.

When we first started playing we just thought along the lines of 'heavier mech = tougher mech'. Compare a Cicada and a Locust. Both have the same amount of armor (64), both move 8/12/0, and both have 3 tons of weaponry and only the basic 10 sinks. Cicada is essentially a redundant copy of a Locust, with it's only improvement being having a handful of extra structure points and charging harder (That's what I always used it for when I got stuck with one, it's really the only thing it has going for it). All that engine space just to make it twice as heavy and still moving at Locust speed.

I used the freeware 'mechwar' simulator to test out the scenario. I had my computer run 100 sim games of 4 Locust versus 4 Cicada and the Cicada only came out with 53% win versus 47% for the Locust. Not a considerable difference for weighing twice as much... again "why don't you just make it lighter?"... "oh yeah, then it would be a Locust again."

Really when evaluating a mech design you look at these factors:
(1) engine compared to weight. Is it pointlessly trying to move too fast for its size?
(2) How much armor is piled on the thing?
(3)How good is the heat management for the weapons load/jumpjets?
(4) how stupidly were the weapons mounted?

This makes a Grasshopper one of the most efficient mechs in that era. It can manage its heat, jump capable, well armored, and has intelligent weapon placement. The PhoenixHawk by contrast, looks like an okay mech at first glance. Well armored, fast, decent weapons. Then you realize that it can't jump and fire without running hot, and that its arms keep getting blown off leaving it hopping around trying to Death-from-above just to try and not be completely useless.

As far as placement goes, here's an example of 'intelligent' placement: the best place for a leftover ML or a heat sink is in the head because it makes it one less likely for some catastrophic crit result to take the mech out, and if you a have a laser in the head, you know that thing will still be firing until the head is blown off and you're dead anyway, for instance. Dice are a factor so it's best to array your mech so as to allow the least possibility for bad luck to completely screw you.

Look at the Dervish as a perfect example of a great design with dumb placements. At a glance it has good weapons for all ranges, decent armor, good speed. Then you realize that it had a slot of SRM2 ammo in each arm. Kind of a big risk of ammo blow just for a pair of plinky SRM2s. I never once saw a Dervish that didn't die from an ammo explosion. Dumb.

There are quite a few mechs that I dig, but since I was introduced to Battletech via Mechwarrior 2, most of my favorite mechs are clan mechs.

Here's a few of my top favorites:

Mad Dog
Summoner
Hellbringer
Timberwolf
Fire Moth
Kit Fox
Cougar
Dire Wolf


Some Inner Sphere mechs that I like:
Atlas
Bushwacker
Awesome
Warhammer
Uziel
Templar

I'm a fan of the older 3025 Mechs, especially the Unseen

Archer (Especially the S version)
Warhammer
T-Bolt
Battlemaster
Wolfhound
Catapult
Trebuchet
Valkryie
Marauder (For rule of cool. It's not a very good mech unless you do some redesigning. Typically I replace the PPC's with large lasers and the AC/5 with a PPC Excess weight is turned into heat sinks and maybe more armor )

Favorite Clan mech is the Black Python. I designed a 70 ton Omni version of it (Steel Python). I also liked the Mad Dog with all the SRM's and the LB-5X.

Marauder with the LL plus heat sinks in place of the AC/5 and ammo and LL in place of the PPCs! I think it was the Marik version but it's been a while and then some since I had that book. That was quite possibly the ultimate 3025 mech. Drop 23 tons of PPC and AC stuff, add 3 LL in place of the PPC and AC/5 and fit in 7 more sinks and you are blasting every turn and never overheating, with only a slightly smaller damage output (24 vs 25) but that whole shoot every turn thing helps a lot, plus you no longer worry about minimum range penalties with LL.

The ideal tech level for me is IS 3050. It has a few extra toys that provide some real decisions and tradeoffs vs the very basic 3025 tech, but not the overkill that is Clan tech. It's too easy to make ideal mechs with Clan tech - you don't have to make any real tradeoffs, you can just pack everything in you want. The mech design has always been the best part of BattleTech, and I always like to take it further and look at cost-effectiveness for a mech and for lance and army design too - how you might choose your military's designs based on strategic goals and the cost of achieving them.

There are lots of highly effective designs at the 3050 tech level, and I love a lot of them, but I've always been a medium mech sort of person at heart. And if I had to pick one favourite, it'd be the 3S Phoenix Hawk. It certainly wasn't anything close to minmaxed, but you could do a lot with that thing. Maybe I only like it because of some fond memories of games with it, but I still do.

Alright, slight diversion.

Anyone have strong opinions about the various vehicle designs of the BT universe?

I obviously like the Savannah Master; it's just about the best way to get a medium laser into battle! I also like the Regualtor Hovertank; anything that can do 9/14 and carry a gauss rifle is great in my book!

On the other hand, the Rotunda really bugs me. It's an urban recon vehicle that is disguised as a sports car... a twenty ton sports car. A 40,000 lb sports car. I can only assume that Star League roads were a lot more heavily reinforced to take that kind of pressure...

For that matter, pretty much all of the wheeled vehicles suck. How many of them have wheels just hanging out there, no armor at all, just waiting to be shot off?

Vulcan wrote:Alright, slight diversion.

Anyone have strong opinions about the various vehicle designs of the BT universe?

I obviously like the Savannah Master; it's just about the best way to get a medium laser into battle! I also like the Regualtor Hovertank; anything that can do 9/14 and carry a gauss rifle is great in my book!

On the other hand, the Rotunda really bugs me. It's an urban recon vehicle that is disguised as a sports car... a twenty ton sports car. A 40,000 lb sports car. I can only assume that Star League roads were a lot more heavily reinforced to take that kind of pressure...

For that matter, pretty much all of the wheeled vehicles suck. How many of them have wheels just hanging out there, no armor at all, just waiting to be shot off?

Well, the roads can generally support a 100 ton 'Mech with two giant footpads the size of a ground car, so I bet it could support a 20 ton car alright.

It is very difficult to armor a wheel properly. Sure, you could put a plate in front of it, and as son as it gets hit it curls in onto the wheel, effectively destroying the tire anyway. The ability for wheel and axle play is more useful than an armor plate which will almost guaranteed get in the way.

I liked the Demolisher. I would not want to get in an arguement with those double AC/20s if cramped in a city. As far as wheels versus tracks, don't tracks get thrown all the time as the most common way of disabling a tank? Seems pretty similar to me how vulnerable they could potentially be.

The Savannah Master is of course excellent, and in keeping with the classic BT philosophy of tanks - cheap, and designed to be used en masse. Heavy emphasis on the cheap.

In a similar vein, the LRM/SRM carriers are excellent. But my favourite has to be the Saladin - fast, cheap, able to close with an AC/20. No tank squadron can compete with Saladin squadrons for cost and mass-effectiveness.

Vehicle? What's a vehicle?

Its like a mech that fell over and started crawling, so its easy to step on, but it still has guns.

Most vehicles can be easy targets, I never thought them worth it since their hit allocation made them so much easier for a crit to just cripple them, whereas mechs would be able to fight on despite horrible damage and still be hopping around on one leg or whatever and ruthlessly firing back. Vehicle damage allocation was their weakness. Only a few stand out... The Demolisher for its hardcore damage output, the LRM carrier because if you play it right it will always be far off from getting attacked, maybe the VonLuckner because it had mass weapons with heavy output and varying ranges and good heat management so even though you know it'll get stomped sooner or later, you know its been pounding out the shots the whole time. Savannahs rock because they are a distraction that is almost impossible to hit (until you get clan on it). That's about all I can think of as worthhwhile vehicles... you take a 35 ton Vedette with its AC/5 and vehicle hit chart, I take a 35 ton Panther, and I'm pretty sure I'll win 10 out of 10 matchups regardless of dice rolls.

There are some folks here complaining about 3025 designs. Some are genuinely dire, others only look dire.

Let us start off with the two worst mechs of 3025 the Jagermech and the Charger, or look no armour and look no weapons respectively. The Jagermech does have a role in anti aircraft and then only if accompanying support units. The charger can also hang arouind there, it hasd a HUGE engine, frankly its a walking reactor and that is really what it should be used as. Remover the small lasers and add power cable relays, now you have a mobile power station that walks by itself. Of course the 'use' of the Charger takes it out of Battletech entirely, but it is genuinely useful.

Now for the rogues gallery of mechs derided or laughed at.

Urbanmech. Because its the only speed 2 mech in the game it has a style of its own, the fact is the Urbie' as it is lovingly called has a lot of supporters, and are a top seller. Anyone who wants to do a bit of urban combat need look no further than a jumping light mech doing ten points of damage a hit, but I am talking about the Panther, the Urbanmech is inferior in every way, but its supposedly dirt cheap easy tom mass produce and a neat little beatstick. Due to quirks in the construction rules its little cheaper than the Panther, but for all its faults it can do its job, especially if used in conjunction with infantry support and others of its own kind, or if you deploy an AC/20 variant. Still even the most stalwart Urbie supporter will have to admit, it is not a mech for honour duels, except against another Urbie fanatic in another Urbanmech.

Blackjack. While AC/2's are a joke they have a place from time to time. The Vulcan as an infantry hunter profits from its ecclectic armament and can be foregiven for its loadout, its good at what it does. Its when you pair up the mistakes and have two AC/2's that matters take a serious turn for the worse. 3025 does this twice, once with the Jagermech described above and also with the Blackjack. The Jagermech is a no hoper, but the Blackjack is not. in fact the Blackjack is one of the most misunderstood and underestimated mechs in 3025 and can be relied upon to hurt anyone who fails to show it respect.
The bad news is 14 tons wasted on autocannon, you could have had an AC/10 for that and plenty of ammo. had the Blackjack been armed that way it would have been a firm favourite instead we get popguns. But do not despair.
First of all AC/2s have the longest range of any weapon in the era, artillery excepted this means that outside of the game the Blackjack has a role as long range sniper, sure it wont do much damager to a parked dropship, but you cannot ignore it and its outside the dropships guns. Blackjacks can be used to force an engagement with an enemy huddling under its dropship weapons envelope. Save this one for fan fiction though.
The only battlefield use of the AC/2 is in crit seeking against vehicles, especially light hovercraft. 3025 is the age of annoying units like the Harasser and Pegasus, the Ac/2's range, or more importtly its long short range bracket gives it a chace to get the immobilising hits ready for lancemates to take apart the hovercraft. VTOL's also dont like Blackjacks. A final note on the AC'2's the ammo is ion the centre torso. While this is risky it also means that side torso penetrations dont automatically cook off the ammo supply. You have to be quite unlucky to take an ammo hit with a Blackjack, though when you do you lose the mech completely.
The Blackjack is slow but its a support mech and normally will be the lightest mech in a much heavier lance of mediums and heavies your opponent might laugh and think it only a means of filling the fourth slot in a lance cheaply, but that is not really true. Being a 40 tonner the Blackjack hasnt much armour, but it has enough for some front line duty, anti vehicle role is worth deploying the Blackjack for, the heavier mechs get the more inefficient they are at dealing with zippy little hovercraft, that aside while the opponent is concentrating on laughing at the popguns they are likely ignoring the lasers. Just about every much has medium lasers to round out its firepower, the Blackjack is odd in that it is one of the rarer mechs to really stock up on them it also has enough heat sinks to fire them all most of the time. It can be quite disconcerting to have a heavy lance close on you and find that the odd job mech at the back is in fact able to deal out short ranged pain as well as its comrades 20-30 tons heavier than itself.
People laugh at the Blackjack so much they close with it with 'decent design' mechs that ought to know better. Blackjacks can match licks with solid brawlers and severly embarass a PPC armed mech if it gets under its guns.

Banshee. Sure this is tonnage inefficient, but the armament though weak for its size is not of itself weak. AC/5 and PPC is not unreasonable for a battlemech, you merely have to overlook that its an assault mech. Still as mentioned above the Banshee is a bully in close combat. I have a softspot for this underdog mech, the only change I would make to the standard design is to remeve the autocannon and add jump jets. then the Banshee can do what it does best, rip things apart in close combat, preferably in an urban setting a bit like a 95 ton Panther.
I should note that once you reduce the engine and have the Banshee-S you have what is undoubtably the nastiest mech in the 3025 codex.

True, But the Urbi and Blackjack are still fun to play

We always called it the "UrbanWreck" and it is the dopiest mech ever. It's like taking a fat midget with you on a mission. At least they could have given it a LL instead of a stupid overweight autocannon. It doesn't have to conserve heat that much, and that could have made it at least more maneuverable. I agree it is fun to play with subpar mechs (kind of what 3025 era is all about) but anyone who will defend it as a 'good' design is seriously deluded by its 'charm'.

As to the Blackjack, I like its armor, I like its ML array, I like its heat efficiency, but the pair of AC/2 is just dumb. Risk of ammo explosion, risk of having underpowered shots nobody is scared of that weigh far too much. A LL or PPC variant of that would work far better, giving it two range brackets, not worrying about ammo, and keeping the same or more sinks to fire either weapon array 1 or array 2 depending on range.

I am kind of a fan of the 'enforcer' as a badass allrounder. It's not fast but it does jump, unlike the very similar Centurion (50 ton mech with AC10). It has decent heat efficiency, so-so but not bad armor, and 2 big guns both in that perfect 15 hex range bracket.

The Jagermech: good lord... where to begin... any alchoholics out there who like Jagermeister? That explains it. Game designers must have had a fun night designing that pile of gak. "Hey bob! lets design the stupidest mech idea ever!", "cool... you got any Jager? I'll be right over"

The Banshee... actually not as bad as most say. Certainly could be more better good with a smaller engine sluggin it at 3/5/3, but even the basic model had staying power and then some just because of its armor, and its scary getting run up on by a mech who doesn't shoot much, but you can't bring it down easy, and then it starts punching you and it weighs that much. I didn't think of it as a 'fail' mech like stingers, urbanwrecks, jagermechs, chargers, etc... more of a 'not as good as what I'm paying for it, but still useful' mech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah... as far as blackjacks threatening a dropship??!! It'll run out of ammo long before it worries the people its shooting at.


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You Btech guys wanna play a game? design the perfect 3025 company (i.e. 12 mechs, 3 medium, 3 light, 3 heavy, 3 assault/heavy depending on your taste)

assume 3 lances who all enter at different times in the game, so each lance would have to be self-supporting, or directly involved in one specific function in the game.

No repeat mechs either!

Mine would be:

Command Lance:
Marauder (M-variant... 3 LLs in place of the PPCs and AC/5, plus lots of heat sinks to fill up space)
Awesome
Griffin
Panther
(Nuthin but PPC lovin!)

Attack Lance:
Victor
Grasshopper
Quickdraw
Enforcer

(all fairly tough jumpy heat efficient and close range hell)

Support Lance:
Valkyrie
Firestarter 'Mirage' variant
Griffin
Catapult

(all about range and jumpability, except the Mirage which is all about speed and lasers)

Actualy it is fun to play with the "Crappy" Mechs, have every one take things like Stingers, Urbies, Blackjacks, MickJaggerMechs, Riflmen, Chargers and Banshees.
It is fun running around fearing the AC/10 of Urbi.

As far as the Jaggers I ran a lance of 3 with a Rifleman in a Company sized game on a open map and I got them on a Hill. I just stood there and waisted AC ammo with concitrated fire and actualy won the game. They did real well in thier role a "Fire Support"

Defender, Bushwhacker, Mad Cat.

Guitardian wrote:We always called it the "UrbanWreck" and it is the dopiest mech ever. It's like taking a fat midget with you on a mission. At least they could have given it a LL instead of a stupid overweight autocannon. It doesn't have to conserve heat that much, and that could have made it at least more maneuverable. I agree it is fun to play with subpar mechs (kind of what 3025 era is all about) but anyone who will defend it as a 'good' design is seriously deluded by its 'charm'.

I will completely support the UrbanMech. It does exactly what it was designed to do, on a cheap and efficient platform.

It also isn't designed to work alone. A lance of them coming out of hiding in a city is a great way to run someone's day.

But again, I own 35 of them. I fully embrace the awesomeness that is the Urbie.

Mattlov wrote:

I will completely support the UrbanMech. It does exactly what it was designed to do, on a cheap and efficient platform.

It also isn't designed to work alone. A lance of them coming out of hiding in a city is a great way to run someone's day.

But again, I own 35 of them. I fully embrace the awesomeness that is the Urbie.

Absolutely - once you factor in costs, the UrbanMech is a genius design. Anyone can make a great Mech where cost and tech is no object.

How much does an Urbie cost compared to other mechs? Combine this with the cost of training and maintaining a mechwarrior...

And, unfortunately, the Urbanmech is only really useful in an area where you should not be fighting if you follow the Ares Conventions. So you have to also factor in damage being done to your own civilian areas when you factor in the 'cost' of them.

The Ares Conventions have been out the window for centuries. People only pay lip service to them most of the time because that's how wars evolved to limit the damage they do.

The Urbie is dirt cheap and useful as a relocatable bunker in urban ops.

Guitardian wrote:
You Btech guys wanna play a game? design the perfect 3025 company (i.e. 12 mechs, 3 medium, 3 light, 3 heavy, 3 assault/heavy depending on your taste)

assume 3 lances who all enter at different times in the game, so each lance would have to be self-supporting, or directly involved in one specific function in the game.

No repeat mechs either!

Assault Lance:

Atlas
Awesome
Victor
Grasshopper

Support Lance:

Orion
Warhammer-D (removes machine guns and SRMs, adds heat sinks and leg armour)
Griffin
Valkyrie

Recon Lance:

Phoenix Hawk-D (removes machine guns, adds heat sinks)
Firestarter-M (removes flamers, adds armour and lasers)
Vulcan 5T (removes AC, adds 3 med lasers and armour)
Jenner-K (removes SRM, adds armour)

If mass is no object, the Atlas is an unmitigated beast in 3025. It's not the most efficient Mech, not the best 1v1, but as part of a lance it is unholy - a slowly advancing firebase with a 9 hex cookie ring of death that nobody wants to enter. Couple it with a more mobile AC/20 in the Victor and the map is yours.

Fire support groups work best when they have a mix of direct fire weapons to breach armour and missiles to score crits. The Warhammer-D is actually better than even the Awesome for mass efficiency, and both are amazing PPC platforms. The Griffin is the classic medium Mech - an efficient workhorse that belongs in every company.

Again, when mass is no object, the best light Mechs are all 35 tons with lots of armour. Even if this lance is alone against a larger force, it is easy to hide behind terrain and try to isolate enemy Mechs and quickly swarm them, or wait for reinforcements. Light and light-medium Mechs are not extremely useful in 3025 though, not unless you start to factor in lots of cost and mass intangibles. They come into their own at 3050 when better tech starts letting them specialise or carry more armour and still have weapons better than thrown rocks.



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skyth wrote:How much does an Urbie cost compared to other mechs? Combine this with the cost of training and maintaining a mechwarrior...

And, unfortunately, the Urbanmech is only really useful in an area where you should not be fighting if you follow the Ares Conventions. So you have to also factor in damage being done to your own civilian areas when you factor in the 'cost' of them.

An UrbanMech costs less than 1.5 million, and is the cheapest Mech around, less than even a Locust. A Griffin, the standard workhorse medium Mech, costs over 3 times what an UrbanMech does. Even SRM carriers, another cheap and powerful design for close quarters fighting, cost more than UrbanMechs.

And cities don't have to be the close terrain in question. Deploy UrbanMechs in any sort of close, heavy terrain, and they do their job just the same. Enough jungle and forest on the map and any Mech without jump jets is almost immobile.

Let's see...Probably not the most efficient company, but what I like

Battlemaster (Throw out the MG's for a pair of heat sinks)
Atlas
Warhammer
Victor

Archer-S
Trebuchet
Tbolt
Valkryie

Wolfhound
Wolverine
Panther
Griffon

I'm a big fan of the Davion version of the Blackjack.

Hanse Davion, on the other hand, was so impress by the Blackjack's showing on Xhosha that he has begun experimenting with new versions. One of the Davion engineers' first discoveries was that the Blackjack's instability is a myth. One Davion variant replaces dual autocannon with heavy lasers and also radically increases the number of heat sinks. This necessitates the removal of two medium lasers and some armor.

2 LL, 2 ML, 16HS, 4/6/4, and solid armor for a 45 toner.

Anpu42 wrote:True, But the Urbi and Blackjack are still fun to play

Helps if you read the post your are critiquing.

one on one - The Spider!

Because its fun to beat up people who depend on level 2 and 3 tech simply by using cover, speed, and taking advantage of fire arcs. Equally fun is dropping clan mechs with 3025 light and mediums.

In a campaign - A Huntress if im feeling exotic, a Phoenix Hawk if Im feeling like I want to keep the mech I start with.

Visually - The King Crab. It just looks like a total badass.

Spiders 3025 are pretty neat darting around until you get that one 11-12 hit roll despite hopping 8 hexes into heavy trees on a mountain top. All of a sudden you're thinking "hmm 48 armor points just doesn't do it for me"


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If you want that kind of game, an Assassin is a tad more resilient versus the offhand getting hit factor.

Rangerrob wrote:I'm a big fan of the Davion version of the Blackjack.

Hanse Davion, on the other hand, was so impress by the Blackjack's showing on Xhosha that he has begun experimenting with new versions. One of the Davion engineers' first discoveries was that the Blackjack's instability is a myth. One Davion variant replaces dual autocannon with heavy lasers and also radically increases the number of heat sinks. This necessitates the removal of two medium lasers and some armor.

2 LL, 2 ML, 16HS, 4/6/4, and solid armor for a 45 toner.

Funny thing is that for all the "More Dakka" comments the Davion's get and their supposed obsession with autocannons they're actually the faction that cranks out a surprising number of flash bulbs.