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So this isn't about gaining an inch EVERY turn but only on the deployment phase where you get to pivot once your turn begins; THAT I could see happening. And even then that's a risky move to get ONE inch closer to the enemy; especially if you loss or fail to take initiative; because then the enemy is shooting side armor.


But anytime after that; its still only moving its maximum range.

Even Master Slow Poke's shows it center to center.





Well if THAT's what this is about then my mistake; I had read this that people were getting extra movement distances every turn just by pivoting.

Dracheous wrote:Well if THAT's what this is about then my mistake; I had read this that people were getting extra movement distances every turn just by pivoting.

By the Allfather no! That would just be silly (and worth 5 points, if the Ork Codex is anything to go by). This is all completely about turn 1 and getting a whole extra 1 or 2" on the first turn.

Oh well then yeah I can agree to people making range doing that because there's a risk it can back fire on them as well; and I've been stealing the inititive a LOT lately so I've no problem opening up battle cannons at your side armor .

Wait, Gwar!, that first land raider in option A, is that ruler supposed to be further out than its hull?

Yes. The First ruler there is just to show that its the same position as the 2nd ruler to add perspective and scale.


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Dracheous wrote:Um its still only 5.5" between the two hulls in there placement there. So where is the gained range?

Because some people think that Option ??? is correct, or that you cannot deploy the model sideways along the deployment zone.

A normally but I voted C for 1 main reason:

Models cannot move off board edge unless they are falling back. If my opponent wants to put his vehicle side wall touching boar edge I say "killer" and laugh as he cannot move away from the board edge and just moves along it while I shoot at the Side armor.

The second you can find me a rule saying I can't move sideways in the vehicle movement section.
Then sure try and pull that Gak.

I voted B, as thats what I do, but I have no problem with A.

ChrisCP wrote:The second you can find me a rule saying I can't move sideways in the vehicle movement section.
Then sure try and pull that Gak.

I cannot find you a rule stating you cannot move sideways, well not exactly. I can find you the rule stating you can move forward and in reverse, and that you can pivot at any point in your move, and that you can pivot as many times as you want during your move.

Now I also know that you cannot find me a rule stating that you CAN move sideways(because there isn't one).

Vehicles can only move forward and in reverse(walkers move like infantry so can move in any direction, sorta) and as you cannot move off board edge(which pivoting off the edge would be) you cannot make any pivot moves to move away from the board edge and are thus stuck there.

Yes I would pull this "Gak" in every game; but when my opponent is setting up I would also let them know that they are completely screwing themselves over.

True true
But once we solved all them issues I would point out that there is no way a table edge can be 'straight' in our physical world and proceed to make a 2^222 point turn ^_^

Kommissar Kel wrote:Vehicles can only move forward and in reverse(walkers move like infantry so can move in any direction, sorta) and as you cannot move off board edge(which pivoting off the edge would be) you cannot make any pivot moves to move away from the board edge and are thus stuck there.

Yes I would pull this "Gak" in every game; but when my opponent is setting up I would also let them know that they are completely screwing themselves over.

Would you then claim that your vehicle only moved "X" inches rather than "X" + the extra inches gained from pivoting?

Would you then claim that your vehicle only moved "X" inches rather than "X" + the extra inches gained from pivoting?

If you turn 180 degrees does the movement of you tank get reduced by the length of your tank? The centre of the tank would have moved X inches regardless of the pivoting.

You are told to measure from the same point when measuring distances and you ignore the pivots. So I turn my tank 180 degrees then move it forwards 12". The rear of my tank is actually now about 18" from the original starting point (assuming a 6" long tank). Or once pivoting 180 degrees have I used up 6" of movement despite the rulebook telling me I've used none?

Measure from eth centre of the tank at all times for movement and then you know the tank hasn't moved any further than it is alloowed and pivoting is ignored. For non-square tanks it will be possible for their nearest point to be closer to the enemy than a square tank due to the dimensions of pivoting. This is imply how the rules work and are meant to work and have worked since £rd edition!

I play a variation of option B, I use the center point of my tank, usually the turret and use it to measure the maximum distance and place it down leaving it turned whatever way I want. Whith this I do not get the bonus movement more then once per turn.

Technically with a raider you could get many inches of movement move forward an inch and turn it sideways, measure an inch and turn it forward and keep doing it until you are out of inches. kind of like this.

I
-
I
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I
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Technically with a raider you could get many inches of movement move forward an inch and turn it sideways, measure an inch and turn it forward and keep doing it until you are out of inches. kind of like this.

Not possible as you pivot about the centre each time. You only get te benefit in the direction the side of your tank is facing at the start of your turn. The effect of how you are playing is A.

B is poorly worded saying that measureing centre to centre you don't get any "bonus" for pivoting which is wrong as you still gain the benefit.

You know what unless you use different pivot points my idea does not work. (I just fooled around with it here) So I guess it can not be horribly exploited. If you use the front as your pivoting point you could get about two raider lengths extra out of a movement.

I am wondering if there is anything in the rules about a double pivot? Not sure if that would be allowed.

1. Start raider sideways
2. Pivot the raider forward and measure from the tip 12" (a couple inches gained)
3. Move and land sideways
4. Pivot again pointing the raider forward (again, gaining a couple inches)

Getting back to the original question - option B seems fair for everyone.

I have always played it as "B" and though I was familiar with "A" it didn't feel right - if my raider was on the 12" deployment zone edge and I move it 12" straight forward then I should be 12" away from the mid-board line.

And sure, if the opponent wanted to play it as "A" then I suppose I should be happy about that being a DE player.

*As for Gwars picture – “B” shows the Land Raider deployed sideways (putting the center point as close to the deployment edge as possible) and then pivoting (gaining the extra inches) when it is faced forwards at it landing spot – this is the same mechanic as in “A”.

Option "B" (which says no extra inches are gained) would entail The Land Raider facing forward (not sideways in this example) with its tracks behind the deployment line and the ruler measuring 12" from that line. The land raider would then move 12" (from front of its tracks to the front of its tracks) thus resulting in the Land Raider being exactly 12" away from the 24" mid-board mark – no extra inches are incurred.

So Gwar's picture shows a pivot move and compares it to another pivot move (the fact that both Land Raiders are placed sideways and then face forwards).

To correct the picture to the question being asked, the sideways Land Raider in option “B” would have you place the ruler on the side of the Land Raider (at the deployment line) and when you move it so no part of the Land raider hull would be sticking beyond those 12” inches from where you measured from the deployment line (as option “B” does not allow any extra movement).

I am not saying "A" is wrong, the rules allow it and if I want to punish myself with "B" then it really shows us DE players as masochistic looneys.

If only the rules specifically told us that pivoting didn't use up movement distance, or specifically told us not to represent 'wheeling' around and simply pivot the vehicle around the center point and measure distance from the hull. If only, in the rules, vehicle movement was perfectly described as choice A.

Oh wait, they do and it is.

Monster Rain wrote:
And... Gwar wins the thread, as much as it pains me to say it.

If only someone had pointed the problem with center point measuring out nearly two weeks ago on page one.
Hmm...

As noted, since pivoting is always done on the center of the vehicle, it's only physically possible to gain distance once per turn, only if the vehicle is longer than it is wide, and only if you're moving in a direction to one side of its starting position.

Not sure how this is hard to understand.

Gorkamorka wrote:If only someone had pointed the problem with center point measuring out nearly two weeks ago on page one.
Hmm...

Yeah, but I made a kick ass Diagram!

option A and B end up being the same - the centre point of the vehicle does not move more than 12 inches -irrespective of where it is measured from

it is only a matter of perception that there appears to be an advantage gained

If any part of your vehicle ends up more than 6" from where you STARTED from, ie BEFORE turning, you're moving more than 6".

It's as simple as that. From beginning of movement [before touching the model] to end, if you are further than 6" from the edge of where your hull BEGAN, you're doing it wrong.

Option B. No extra movement for turning.

Yes, it took someone drawing a picture for me to understand(even though I agreed with option A from the start.)

I'm not to proud to admit it.

Kommissar Kel wrote:A normally but I voted C for 1 main reason:

Models cannot move off board edge unless they are falling back. If my opponent wants to put his vehicle side wall touching boar edge I say "killer" and laugh as he cannot move away from the board edge and just moves along it while I shoot at the Side armor.

You read it wrong, they're putting it at the furthest point forward, not at the back of the deployment zone. Not to mention there is no rule saying you can't move sideways so either way you have no point.

Spellbound wrote:If any part of your vehicle ends up more than 6" from where you STARTED from, ie BEFORE turning, you're moving more than 6".

It's as simple as that. From beginning of movement [before touching the model] to end, if you are further than 6" from the edge of where your hull BEGAN, you're doing it wrong.

Option B. No extra movement for turning.

except, as has been pointed out many times that ISN'T what the rules say.

Norade wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:A normally but I voted C for 1 main reason:

Models cannot move off board edge unless they are falling back. If my opponent wants to put his vehicle side wall touching boar edge I say "killer" and laugh as he cannot move away from the board edge and just moves along it while I shoot at the Side armor.

You read it wrong, they're putting it at the furthest point forward, not at the back of the deployment zone. Not to mention there is no rule saying you can't move sideways so either way you have no point.

As I pointed out earlier there is rules that state you can move forward and in reverse, there is no mention of rules stating you CAN move sideways, so you cannot.

Let me make this very clear: Tanks cannot strafe, Skimmers cannot strafe(although at least it would make sense that they could), walkers are a little iffy as they move like infantry so possibly could strafe(but then they are almost all on circular bases)

Although you are right I did read into the initial question wrong and thought back edge instead of forward edge; but then I also said A as well, as anytime you turn before movement you will gain extra movement in the new direction, which is RAW.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Norade wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:A normally but I voted C for 1 main reason:

Models cannot move off board edge unless they are falling back. If my opponent wants to put his vehicle side wall touching boar edge I say "killer" and laugh as he cannot move away from the board edge and just moves along it while I shoot at the Side armor.

You read it wrong, they're putting it at the furthest point forward, not at the back of the deployment zone. Not to mention there is no rule saying you can't move sideways so either way you have no point.

As I pointed out earlier there is rules that state you can move forward and in reverse, there is no mention of rules stating you CAN move sideways, so you cannot.

Let me make this very clear: Tanks cannot strafe, Skimmers cannot strafe(although at least it would make sense that they could), walkers are a little iffy as they move like infantry so possibly could strafe(but then they are almost all on circular bases)

Although you are right I did read into the initial question wrong and thought back edge instead of forward edge; but then I also said A as well, as anytime you turn before movement you will gain extra movement in the new direction, which is RAW.

Actually beyond saying that vehicles can pivot freely and are allowed to move forward and backwards in a turn the rules say nothing abut how to move vehicle models. Fowards as backwards can be read as either move in a straight line towards the vehicle's front, or towards or away from a position.

Spellbound wrote:If any part of your vehicle ends up more than 6" from where you STARTED from, ie BEFORE turning, you're moving more than 6".

It's as simple as that. From beginning of movement [before touching the model] to end, if you are further than 6" from the edge of where your hull BEGAN, you're doing it wrong.

Option B. No extra movement for turning.

Exactly, the rulebook tells us that "turning" does not reduce your move, but it also doesn't allow you to "gain" any extra movement. The rulebook does NOT tell us to measure from center point to center point when moving, only that a vehicle pivots on its center point.

Mannahnin wrote:As noted, since pivoting is always done on the center of the vehicle, it's only physically possible to gain distance once per turn, only if the vehicle is longer than it is wide, and only if you're moving in a direction to one side of its starting position.

Not sure how this is hard to understand.

It's not possible, because then you'd be moving more than how far you intended.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Spellbound wrote:If any part of your vehicle ends up more than 6" from where you STARTED from, ie BEFORE turning, you're moving more than 6".

It's as simple as that. From beginning of movement [before touching the model] to end, if you are further than 6" from the edge of where your hull BEGAN, you're doing it wrong.

Option B. No extra movement for turning.

except, as has been pointed out many times that ISN'T what the rules say.

Except, as I pointed out, that IS what the rules say. What you are describing (gaining extra movement) is not covered at all in the rulebook.


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Norade wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Norade wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:A normally but I voted C for 1 main reason:

Models cannot move off board edge unless they are falling back. If my opponent wants to put his vehicle side wall touching boar edge I say "killer" and laugh as he cannot move away from the board edge and just moves along it while I shoot at the Side armor.

You read it wrong, they're putting it at the furthest point forward, not at the back of the deployment zone. Not to mention there is no rule saying you can't move sideways so either way you have no point.

As I pointed out earlier there is rules that state you can move forward and in reverse, there is no mention of rules stating you CAN move sideways, so you cannot.

Let me make this very clear: Tanks cannot strafe, Skimmers cannot strafe(although at least it would make sense that they could), walkers are a little iffy as they move like infantry so possibly could strafe(but then they are almost all on circular bases)

Although you are right I did read into the initial question wrong and thought back edge instead of forward edge; but then I also said A as well, as anytime you turn before movement you will gain extra movement in the new direction, which is RAW.

Actually beyond saying that vehicles can pivot freely and are allowed to move forward and backwards in a turn the rules say nothing abut how to move vehicle models. Fowards as backwards can be read as either move in a straight line towards the vehicle's front, or towards or away from a position.

Norade, you're exactly right. Except, the rulebook tells us that under normal circumstances, a normal vehicle can only move a maximum of 12" per turn. The contention is actually not about how to move the vehicle, it seems, but rather from where to where do you measure. If you measure center to center, you end up with a situation where part of the vehicle will be further away from where you started that you intended, (say you meant to go 6"), and the argument is whether or not that counts as 6", or 6" + the extra inche or 2 gained from the vehicle pivoting.

Would you say that such a vehicle would be allowed to shoot one weapon, as is the case with moving 6", or not?

Whitedragon- then prove it via the rules, not a statement. that it does not violate the rules HAS been proven, both linguistically and diagrammatically.

Norade: how exactly does forward and reverse now mean Sideways?

forward means exactly that; straight line, the rules specifically state there is no "wheeling about" which would mean that the movement is straight line only

nosferatu1001 wrote:Whitedragon- then prove it via the rules, not a statement. that it does not violate the rules HAS been proven, both linguistically and diagrammatically.

You have proven nothing. The rules allow you to pivot on the center of the vehicle. The rules make no mention of where you measure from, but they state that a vehicle cannot move more than 12". I contend that the left most battlewagon in the diagram provided has moved farther than it is allowed to, and would be an illegal move.

I would say that the issue comes from where you measure on the vehicle. Measuring from center point to center point gives you more movement in some cases, so I contend that it is not a valid way to measure. You need to prove that the rulebook says otherwise. (It doesn't, it makes no mention, only that you use the vehicle's hull in lieu of it's base.)