Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A.

It is the rule.
Tt has been that way for at least 3 editions.

The local groups I have played with all play option B. Though I doubt anyone would be too upset if someone was using option A, espescially if they knew the rules enough to point out "it says right here..."

Oddly enough we have a fair mix of WAAC players(the mostly friendly kind that just maximise every advantage regardless of fluff, opponet skill elvel or any other concern) that have not done this. I'm a little surprised that no one that I know of has tired using Option A to gain extra movement. Interesting.

This thread goes to show what having sportsman ship in a tournament is a bad idea. Most of us would be totally cool with using option A but a few bad eggs could take a best overall from you.

Sounds like I'm 'a bad egg' on this one. Never had an opponent do this against me and I suppose I would be ok with it. I definitely don't care enough to argue with 80% of Dakka. It kinda rankles though.

Riddle me this: To ascertain how to hit a vehicle you determine how far it moved in it's previous turn measuring actual distance covered from its original position (so you can't drive in circles to avoid being hit). If you pivot a vehicle and gain, say, 2" and move 12" you have moved 14" from your original position. Cruising speed (hit on 6+) is defined as more than 6" and up to 12" unless on a road.

I'd say that distance would be measured center-to-center, which wouldn't be any different no matter how much wheeling was done before or after the move.

A - it is permitted within the rule

bare in mind though people often have there tank/vehicles facing particular directions to offer themselves the best protection available (AV speaking)

often i will move direction and then turn the vehicle back to face the greatest threat.. so you gain an inch and you lose an inch here and there..

lets look at it the otherway also.. if i turned my facing away from your lines (essentially losing an inch) would you allow me to move my vehicle forwards another inch sideways to make up for it??

I would rather play B, measuring from the vehicle's start point to finish point, allowing it to change its facing along the way without gaining any extra movement... (Measuring centre point is too awkward, and too much of a deviation from the rules for me)

But from my experience most players go A, so that's how I generally end up playing.

Actually, on second thought, it is common sense to allow it so you don't end up with vehicles having to move sideways. As long as you always pivot around the centre (so you're not slaloming up the board moving 14" a turn) that's fine. Setting up to gain these inches on the first turn is playing for an advantage and I probably wouldn't do it myself but I suppose I wouldn't judge an opponent harshly for doing it.

EDIT: No, changed my mind again. You can't move more than 12" unless your on a road or fast or whatever. Play A if you want. I'll stick to B.

Does this fall under the scenario for B? Player A takes a 2" x 4" vehicle facing with narrow end forward, moves that vehicle 13" forward and pivots it 90 degrees so that the middle of the side is now 12" from where the front was. Player A now claims that the vehicle only moved 12" since the measurement from starting position to ending position is only 12".

The center of the vehicle moved can only move 12". The extra distance come from the idea that a vehicle can pivot before moving, so the nose of the vehicle being farther from the middle of the vehicle than the side...the vehicle ends up closer to its target than would happen if the vehicle could move sideways 12".

So long as vehicles are consistently moved from center point to center point, then the rules are being followed.

Always pivot on the center point of the vehicle, nothing else is allowed.



Sliggoth

in the end playing option A the centre of the vehicle will always move 12 inches - you are not actually moving it further then the allowed distances.. it is only a matter of perception

as i said eariler if i had a rhino facing forwards drive it straight at you lines.. turned it 90 so when the troops disembark it opens up LOS so the marine can all rapid fire.. would you allow me to move the rhino an extra inch to make up for the ground lost when pivoting??

as long as you make you opponent turn the vehicle to face the way it travels when moving, it will all balance out in the end

Tank drifting in the 41st millenia.

Voted A.

I voted B, although in my gaming group at least I can tell you that we don't really measure as precisely as we should, so it doesn't really matter. At the FLGS, option A seems to be more prevalent.

I voted B as A seems to violate the "No measuring from front to back". Not to mention the "not moving over its maximum distance". I'm a pretty hardcore RAW guy and I just can't make the jumpt to A without feeling like I have broken rules that are clearly laid out in the book. If my sideways raider moves twelve inches and then "pivots" to gain an additional 2", part of the vehicle is now 14" from where the vehicle started in the movement phase, so I can't see how by RAW I am allowed to shoot any weapons or disembark. As I see it the part about pivoting not reducing the vehicles move simplying meaning that you don't have to "pay" inches to change your facing (like you do in fantasy) or if all you do is pivot you aren't considered to have move (save for the purpose of passangers).

Of course until GW comes out with a ruling (fat chance of that) I don't see this getting settled.

C. (Well, it's basically B).

A vehicle moves in a straight line forward from it's front most edge to it's front most edge. Vehicles are pivoted around the central axis before moving and, if it need to turn during a movement, in mid-movement. Moving a vehicle by moving the front to where the side was isn't pivoting in my book, that's movement.
Essentially, measure from the middle of the vehicle.

I don't consider pivoting to gain extra distance to be fair to the rules, mostly because it allows the vehicle to cheat quite a bit.
To illustrate this point, you are free to pivot a vehicle in the movement phase without it "moving". Pivoting it so you gain distance is free of movement, then you pivot it back using the same mechanic. Purely objectively (a human wouldn't subjectively allow it) you could inch your way across the table without ever counting as moving.

Mahtamori wrote:I don't consider pivoting to gain extra distance to be fair to the rules, mostly because it allows the vehicle to cheat quite a bit.
To illustrate this point, you are free to pivot a vehicle in the movement phase without it "moving". Pivoting it so you gain distance is free of movement, then you pivot it back using the same mechanic. Purely objectively (a human wouldn't subjectively allow it) you could inch your way across the table without ever counting as moving.

Except that you cannot do this since all pivots are done from the EXACT center of the vehicle.

B.

As unrealistic this game is, I wouldnt stoop so low as to manipulate the wording of the rules to gain a couple inches of movement with my vehicles. Any opponent who tries this against me will get flak for it, I dont care if its RAW or not, its against the spirit of the rules for a vehicle to move faster simply because it was parked perpendicular the direction of travel. Logically speaking it should actually move LESS than its maximum movement because it had to pivot before accelerating.

Any opponent who tries A against me will hear my complaints about it, if they decide to do it anyways, I will not play them. If they choose to play B after the inevitable arguement I will still play them, but for the rest of that game I will keep my eyes open for any other dodgey rules, extra movement inches, etc. If in future games they continue to try to play A, then I will stop playing against that person entirely.

TLDR: A might be RAW, but B is how I play, and I wont allow someone to play A against me.

Demogerg wrote:Any opponent who tries A against me will hear my complaints about it, if they decide to do it anyways, I will not play them. If they choose to play B after the inevitable arguement I will still play them, but for the rest of that game I will keep my eyes open for any other dodgey rules, extra movement inches, etc. If in future games they continue to try to play A, then I will stop playing against that person entirely.

TLDR: A might be RAW, but B is how I play, and I wont allow someone to play A against me.

Brilliant! The rules aren't good enough. Everyone must play my way. Rawwwwwwwwwwwwwwr!

Overreact much?

It's not RAW. It says that you do not lose movement by moving, as if you would if you were wheeling. It does not RAW or RAI to give you extra movement. It still states clearly that you can not move more than your max movement speed. Why would anyone ever assume that you could?

It's really shameful play.. Gonna convert some extra long land raiders so I can pivot and assault on the top of turn 1.

blood angel wrote:It's really shameful play.. Gonna convert some extra long land raiders so I can pivot and assault on the top of turn 1.

At which point I point out that by the RaW, converted models cannot be used.

You wanna use RaW to be a dill-weed and I can do it right back!

Arschbombe wrote:

Demogerg wrote:Any opponent who tries A against me will hear my complaints about it, if they decide to do it anyways, I will not play them. If they choose to play B after the inevitable arguement I will still play them, but for the rest of that game I will keep my eyes open for any other dodgey rules, extra movement inches, etc. If in future games they continue to try to play A, then I will stop playing against that person entirely.

TLDR: A might be RAW, but B is how I play, and I wont allow someone to play A against me.

Brilliant! The rules aren't good enough. Everyone must play my way. Rawwwwwwwwwwwwwwr!

Overreact much?

I dont care how EVERYONE plays, I just care about how my games are played, and if someone is so adamant to gain 2" movement through shady rules interpretation, then they can play against someone else. I'm not going to get them kicked out of the store, I'm just not going to waste my time with TFG when I can play a reasonable game against opponents who want to play a game WITH me and not AGAINST me.

Gwar! wrote:

blood angel wrote:It's really shameful play.. Gonna convert some extra long land raiders so I can pivot and assault on the top of turn 1.

At which point I point out that by the RaW, converted models cannot be used.

You wanna use RaW to be a dill-weed and I can do it right back!

You use RAW to be a dill-weed in almost every post you make. I am certainly entitled to one or two. My point still stands. I also do not remember reading in any rules section that converted figures are not allowed to be used.

blood angel wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

blood angel wrote:It's really shameful play.. Gonna convert some extra long land raiders so I can pivot and assault on the top of turn 1.

At which point I point out that by the RaW, converted models cannot be used.

You wanna use RaW to be a dill-weed and I can do it right back!

You use RAW to be a dill-weed in almost every post you make. I am certainly entitled to one or two. My point still stands. I also do not remember reading in any rules section that converted figures are not allowed to be used.

You don't need to.

You need to find a rule saying you CAN use them, which there isn't. But anyway, that's not the topic of this thread, so I'll drop it now.

Fair enough. Please point me to the rule where it states you get to move your vehicle a distance greater than it's maximum move range?

Sorry.. you can't. All you, and the others have, is a slim word window to try and squeeze through to try and justify shady play.

Max move distance is just that. It's not max unless you pivot or max unless you dance a jig..

The max IS:

–noun
1.
the greatest quantity or amount possible, assignable, allowable, etc.
2.
the highest amount, value, or degree attained or recorded.
3.
an upper limit allowed or allowable by law or regulation.

The problem with you brits is that you don't speak english.

blood angel wrote:Fair enough. Please point me to the rule where it states you get to move your vehicle a distance greater than it's maximum move range?

Sorry.. you can't. All you, and the others have, is a slim word window to try and squeeze through to try and justify shady play.

Max move distance is just that. It's not max unless you pivot or max unless you dance a jig..

The max IS:

–noun
1.
the greatest quantity or amount possible, assignable, allowable, etc.
2.
the highest amount, value, or degree attained or recorded.
3.
an upper limit allowed or allowable by law or regulation.

The problem with you brits is that you don't speak english.

Firstly, read the rules of YMTC about using Dictionary Quotes. I think you will find you just broke them.

Secondly, I can point to the rules. The Rules for Moving vehicles. If you follow them, you appear to get "Extra" inches. The Problem is you are thinking of them as "extra", when they are not. They are simply how the vehicle moves.

You are, quite simply, wrong.

Please post where it says in the rules that you can move a vehicle farther than its maximum movement range.

The word Maximum in the rules is the hinge of the argument and therefore valid. Of course, it benefits you and those that wish to play that way to completely ignore the meaning of certain words.

blood angel wrote:You are, quite simply, wrong.

That's another rule of YMTC you just broke. I suggest reading them before you break any more.

Please post where it says in the rules that you can move a vehicle farther than its maximum movement range.

Nowhere. However, the rules for moving vehicles make it very clear how a vehicle moves. So, even though it may seem like I am moving more than my "Maximum" distance, I am not. The Maximum Distance is the most distance I can move with my model by following the rules. The rules say to move I Must (not may, MUST, I have NO choice in the matter) Pivot the vehicle around it's center point, and that this pivot does not use up any of my move. I then am told I am permitted to move a certain number of inches, measuring from the front of the hull to the front of the hull, as per the diagram (and the rules).

The word Maximum in the rules is the hinge of the argument and therefore valid. Of course, it benefits you and those that wish to play that way to completely ignore the meaning of certain words.

Actually, all it does is let us play by the rules and not have to spend 7 hours pre game discussing house rules. I don't know about you, but that to me is not fun.

The way I see it:

You set the point you want to move to, you measure from the closest point on the vehicle to the point your moving to and that is the "max movement distance" you can then pivot your vehicle as much as you want DURING the move, as long as your vehicle (any point on it) ends it's move within that maximum distance.

That is quite clearly RAW. Anything else is clearly absurd. Thanks GWAR for once NOT using RAW and instead your own personal RAI.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

blood angel wrote:You are, quite simply, wrong.

That's another rule of YMTC you just broke. I suggest reading them before you break any more.

Please post where it says in the rules that you can move a vehicle farther than its maximum movement range.

Nowhere. However, the rules for moving vehicles make it very clear how a vehicle moves. So, even though it may seem like I am moving more than my "Maximum" distance, I am not. The Maximum Distance is the most distance I can move with my model by following the rules. The rules say to move I Must (not may, MUST, I have NO choice in the matter) Pivot the vehicle around it's center point, and that this pivot does not use up any of my move. I then am told I am permitted to move a certain number of inches, measuring from the front of the hull to the front of the hull, as per the diagram (and the rules).

The word Maximum in the rules is the hinge of the argument and therefore valid. Of course, it benefits you and those that wish to play that way to completely ignore the meaning of certain words.

Actually, all it does is let us play by the rules and not have to spend 7 hours pre game discussing house rules. I don't know about you, but that to me is not fun.

Why are you pivoting before you move? Or are you ending your movement outside the maximum distance by measuring from the center point rather than the hull as it details?

You can attempt to trivialize my statements but it's not working.

People seeking advantages in the rules will find them. You are choosing to ignore the words as printed and instead substituting your own favorable interpretations.

Which is a grander offense here? Breaking the rules of YMTC or breaking the rules of warhammer 40k like you're suggesting people do?

Just checking.

I'm out!

Is it just me our has the original question made a huge mistake? Option B says I play measuring from the centre point, which is identical to Option A and still gives the ability to gain movement distance.

The "other" option that you move a given distance in any direction from start point to end point regardless of pivoting also gives you gained movement. Just in a different way.

Say I'm that long Vehicle and I have access points at the side. Now I'd start forward facing move my 12" (or however far) and pit at the end so my side is now 12" from where my front started. My centre point has now moved about 15" and I've still gain movement just in a on-sensical way that is different to how the rulebook tells us to play.