Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Frazzled wrote:How do you think the communist state has to form? It needs a dictatorship. That comes from Marx himself. It never evolves beyond the wholesale killing stage. People who believe otherwise are kidding themselves or willfully ignorant.

Well, the Soviet Union did once Stalin was dead.

It wasn't a great place to live but it wasn't a land of purges and death camps.

The Gulag system did not close down until the USSR fell apart. http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/

The Gulag System wasn't a wholesale killing system.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Frazzled wrote:How do you think the communist state has to form? It needs a dictatorship. That comes from Marx himself. It never evolves beyond the wholesale killing stage. People who believe otherwise are kidding themselves or willfully ignorant.

Well, the Soviet Union did once Stalin was dead.

It wasn't a great place to live but it wasn't a land of purges and death camps.

The Gulag system did not close down until the USSR fell apart. http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/

The Gulag System wasn't a wholesale killing system.

Still a system of concentration camps. Still a place to send undersirables to die.

But not a mass killing system, and the purges ceased too.

I'm just pointing out that you were wrong.

Kilkrazy wrote:But not a mass killing system, and the purges ceased too.

I'm just pointing out that you were wrong.

I'm not. Its still a formalized instrument of repression and murder, just murder lite. No communist nation achieves, much less stays in power (except for universities...maybe ) without repressive instruments of terror. They are just dictatorships like any other form.

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:But not a mass killing system, and the purges ceased too.

I'm just pointing out that you were wrong.

I'm not. Its still a formalized instrument of repression and murder, just murder lite. No communist nation achieves, much less stays in power (except for universities...maybe ) without repressive instruments of terror. They are just dictatorships like any other form.

I would contend that the sample size is much too low for you to make a blanket statement such as that, communism as a form of governance has existed for half a century and mirrors many forms of ancient and successful governance. Communism has only historically been tried in corrupt and unstable nations such as china and the soviet union, both of which had historically weak and harsh forms of governance that were prone to violence against their own peoples anyway. Throwing in a mass citizen revolt and overarching alteration of the form of government and you will logically end up with a bodycount, it's the nature of revolution and of destitute countries. Capitalism has been horrendously destructive to africa over the last fifty years as well, and during the colonial periods and industrial revolutions of the west that same level of debased violent repression occurred. Blaming communism or making blanket statements like the requirement for oppression (which marxist communism would seemingly argue against at its core) because of what happened in china and the soviet union is childish.

Can't we not just send all dissidents to Australia instead of purges and gulags and death camps oh my? I think that was a capitalist system that tried that, and Australia turned out great!

Guitardian wrote:Can't we not just send all dissidents to Australia instead of purges and gulags and death camps oh my? I think that was a capitalist system that tried that, and Australia turned out great!

Tell that to the aboriginals.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:But not a mass killing system, and the purges ceased too.

I'm just pointing out that you were wrong.

I'm not. Its still a formalized instrument of repression and murder, just murder lite. No communist nation achieves, much less stays in power (except for universities...maybe ) without repressive instruments of terror. They are just dictatorships like any other form.

I would contend that the sample size is much too low for you to make a blanket statement such as that, communism as a form of governance has existed for half a century and mirrors many forms of ancient and successful governance. Communism has only historically been tried in corrupt and unstable nations such as china and the soviet union, both of which had historically weak and harsh forms of governance that were prone to violence against their own peoples anyway. Throwing in a mass citizen revolt and overarching alteration of the form of government and you will logically end up with a bodycount, it's the nature of revolution and of destitute countries. Capitalism has been horrendously destructive to africa over the last fifty years as well, and during the colonial periods and industrial revolutions of the west that same level of debased violent repression occurred. Blaming communism or making blanket statements like the requirement for oppression (which marxist communism would seemingly argue against at its core) because of what happened in china and the soviet union is childish.

bs. Name a country thats been communist that hasn't had a bloodbath?

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:But not a mass killing system, and the purges ceased too.

I'm just pointing out that you were wrong.

I'm not. Its still a formalized instrument of repression and murder, just murder lite. No communist nation achieves, much less stays in power (except for universities...maybe ) without repressive instruments of terror. They are just dictatorships like any other form.

I would contend that the sample size is much too low for you to make a blanket statement such as that, communism as a form of governance has existed for half a century and mirrors many forms of ancient and successful governance. Communism has only historically been tried in corrupt and unstable nations such as china and the soviet union, both of which had historically weak and harsh forms of governance that were prone to violence against their own peoples anyway. Throwing in a mass citizen revolt and overarching alteration of the form of government and you will logically end up with a bodycount, it's the nature of revolution and of destitute countries. Capitalism has been horrendously destructive to africa over the last fifty years as well, and during the colonial periods and industrial revolutions of the west that same level of debased violent repression occurred. Blaming communism or making blanket statements like the requirement for oppression (which marxist communism would seemingly argue against at its core) because of what happened in china and the soviet union is childish.

bs. Name a country thats been communist that hasn't had a bloodbath?

Name one country thats been communist that didn't turn communist in a violent revolution against a repressive dictatorial regime during a time of extreme economic hardship. Take off the black and white glasses and crack open a history book for once in your life, these places didn't instantly turn into violent shitholes because of communism, they were violent shitholes that became communist. It's not like bored people just decide to have "peoples revolutions", they do it because conditions are awful. Violent revolutions, especially ideological ones always result in a high death toll, it's the nature of ideological revolution. Non believers get re-educated or they die. It's not like the communists invented ideological or nationalist purges, those had been around for thousands of years and were always the result of the same situations.

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:But not a mass killing system, and the purges ceased too.

I'm just pointing out that you were wrong.

I'm not. Its still a formalized instrument of repression and murder, just murder lite. No communist nation achieves, much less stays in power (except for universities...maybe ) without repressive instruments of terror. They are just dictatorships like any other form.

I would contend that the sample size is much too low for you to make a blanket statement such as that, communism as a form of governance has existed for half a century and mirrors many forms of ancient and successful governance. Communism has only historically been tried in corrupt and unstable nations such as china and the soviet union, both of which had historically weak and harsh forms of governance that were prone to violence against their own peoples anyway. Throwing in a mass citizen revolt and overarching alteration of the form of government and you will logically end up with a bodycount, it's the nature of revolution and of destitute countries. Capitalism has been horrendously destructive to africa over the last fifty years as well, and during the colonial periods and industrial revolutions of the west that same level of debased violent repression occurred. Blaming communism or making blanket statements like the requirement for oppression (which marxist communism would seemingly argue against at its core) because of what happened in china and the soviet union is childish.

bs. Name a country thats been communist that hasn't had a bloodbath?

Name a country that hasn't had a bloodbath.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:But not a mass killing system, and the purges ceased too.

I'm just pointing out that you were wrong.

I'm not. Its still a formalized instrument of repression and murder, just murder lite. No communist nation achieves, much less stays in power (except for universities...maybe ) without repressive instruments of terror. They are just dictatorships like any other form.

I would contend that the sample size is much too low for you to make a blanket statement such as that, communism as a form of governance has existed for half a century and mirrors many forms of ancient and successful governance. Communism has only historically been tried in corrupt and unstable nations such as china and the soviet union, both of which had historically weak and harsh forms of governance that were prone to violence against their own peoples anyway. Throwing in a mass citizen revolt and overarching alteration of the form of government and you will logically end up with a bodycount, it's the nature of revolution and of destitute countries. Capitalism has been horrendously destructive to africa over the last fifty years as well, and during the colonial periods and industrial revolutions of the west that same level of debased violent repression occurred. Blaming communism or making blanket statements like the requirement for oppression (which marxist communism would seemingly argue against at its core) because of what happened in china and the soviet union is childish.

bs. Name a country thats been communist that hasn't had a bloodbath?

Name a country that hasn't had a bloodbath.

As state policy?

Define state policy.

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Name a country that hasn't had a bloodbath.

As state policy?

You'd be hard-pressed to find one that hadn't had bloodbath as a state policy. The USA? Check. Australia? Check. Most of Asia? Check. Most of Europe? Check. Most of Africa? Check.

This isn't a trait of communist societies, it's a trait of human societies.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Name a country that hasn't had a bloodbath.

As state policy?

You'd be hard-pressed to find one that hadn't had bloodbath as a state policy. The USA? Check. Australia? Check. Most of Asia? Check. Most of Europe? Check. Most of Africa? Check.

This isn't a trait of communist societies, it's a trait of human societies.

Not their own citizens, but whatever, I don't give a gak. If you like it, I strongly suggest you diligently work for your nation to become communist.

Frazzled wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Name a country that hasn't had a bloodbath.

As state policy?

You'd be hard-pressed to find one that hadn't had bloodbath as a state policy. The USA? Check. Australia? Check. Most of Asia? Check. Most of Europe? Check. Most of Africa? Check.

This isn't a trait of communist societies, it's a trait of human societies.

Not their own citizens, but whatever, I don't give a gak. If you like it, I strongly suggest you diligently work for your nation to become communist.

And here it is folks, when Frazzleds delusion becomes too much for even him to bare he states something trollish and then quits the thread.

Frazzled wrote:Still a system of concentration camps. Still a place to send undersirables to die.

Like that place in Cuba...err...

reds8n wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Still a system of concentration camps. Still a place to send undersirables to die.

Like that place in Cuba...err...

Frazzled wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Name a country that hasn't had a bloodbath.

As state policy?

You'd be hard-pressed to find one that hadn't had bloodbath as a state policy. The USA? Check. Australia? Check. Most of Asia? Check. Most of Europe? Check. Most of Africa? Check.

This isn't a trait of communist societies, it's a trait of human societies.

Not their own citizens, but whatever, I don't give a gak. If you like it, I strongly suggest you diligently work for your nation to become communist.

Aboriginals. Native Americans. Serbia. Rwanda. Nazi Germany.

Just off the top of my head.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Name a country that hasn't had a bloodbath.

As state policy?

You'd be hard-pressed to find one that hadn't had bloodbath as a state policy. The USA? Check. Australia? Check. Most of Asia? Check. Most of Europe? Check. Most of Africa? Check.

This isn't a trait of communist societies, it's a trait of human societies.

Not their own citizens, but whatever, I don't give a gak. If you like it, I strongly suggest you diligently work for your nation to become communist.

And here it is folks, when Frazzleds delusion becomes too much for even him to bare he states something trollish and then quits the thread.

incorrect. I'd rather not waste my time arguing with people attempting to equivocate communist dictatorships.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Name a country that hasn't had a bloodbath.

As state policy?

You'd be hard-pressed to find one that hadn't had bloodbath as a state policy. The USA? Check. Australia? Check. Most of Asia? Check. Most of Europe? Check. Most of Africa? Check.

This isn't a trait of communist societies, it's a trait of human societies.

Not their own citizens, but whatever, I don't give a gak. If you like it, I strongly suggest you diligently work for your nation to become communist.

Aboriginals. Native Americans. Serbia. Rwanda. Nazi Germany.

Just off the top of my head.

thats just random blatherings. But like I said, if you wish to test your theory about communism not having been implemented properly then I strongly suggest you do so. Hot house coffee shop debates about the merits of communism are sad when the real life comparables are unimaginably murderous. Do what you want.

incorrect. I'd rather not waste my time arguing with people attempting to equivocate communist dictatorships.

Thats not true at all, it's all you've been doing. It's not like you've been making measured or sensible posts, you've just been arguing for the sake of arguing using a sheer black and white ideological viewpoint with very little actual historical perspective. You don't like communism, thus communism must be evil.

thats just random blatherings. But like I said, if you wish to test your theory about communism not having been implemented properly then I strongly suggest you do so. Hot house coffee shop debates about the merits of communism are sad when the real life comparables are unimaginably murderous. Do what you want.

Posts like this in fact. I wish you'd join the debate, but hey, for some the cold war is never over.

Wait you think something on the OT reaches the level of a debate? That explains a lot.

Frazzled wrote:thats just random blatherings.

You specified that you meant state sanctioned bloodbaths of citizens. Those were exactly that.

The whole serbian/yugoslavian/croatian situation is special given that the region was previously communist, at least in name, but the situation came about in large part due to fall of the soviet union and the collapse of communism. Had it remained, possibly we don't get the civil war happening, neh?

Frazzled wrote:Wait you think something on the OT reaches the level of a debate? That explains a lot.

As a rule I expect more from people than most. I'm often disappointed.

I'm just saddened that you misinterpreted anything on the OT as being a debate. You really should watch one, or take a class.

Frazzled wrote:I'm just saddened that you misinterpreted anything on the OT as being a debate. You really should watch one, or take a class.

Mmm, yes. Whatever, thats nice. Oh, are you still here? I thought you threw your hat at the ground and stomped off already? Did you stick around just to troll me because of my expectations that you act like and adult, even on the internet?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I'm just saddened that you misinterpreted anything on the OT as being a debate. You really should watch one, or take a class.

Mmm, yes. Whatever, thats nice. Oh, are you still here? I thought you threw your hat at the ground and stomped off already? Did you stick around just to troll me because of my expectations that you act like and adult, even on the internet?

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I'm just saddened that you misinterpreted anything on the OT as being a debate. You really should watch one, or take a class.

Mmm, yes. Whatever, thats nice. Oh, are you still here? I thought you threw your hat at the ground and stomped off already? Did you stick around just to troll me because of my expectations that you act like and adult, even on the internet?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I'm just saddened that you misinterpreted anything on the OT as being a debate. You really should watch one, or take a class.

Mmm, yes. Whatever, thats nice. Oh, are you still here? I thought you threw your hat at the ground and stomped off already? Did you stick around just to troll me because of my expectations that you act like and adult, even on the internet?

I am saddened by absence of weiner dogs being diplayed here. Why is a cat getting top billing?
[/

I can't believe this old man is allowed to post pictures of his weiner on the internet.

Or that unemployment checks [sic] can do anything but gently stir the economy.

This thread is friggin' legend.

I don't even remember what the topic was after all that. I think we need a prize fight between the reanimated mass murderers of the past to decide this one. My money is on Zombie Stalin. Joe don't take no guff.