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Arctik_Firangi wrote:The universe blesses those who do not engage in such petty arguments with the label of 'maturity'.
You're no better or worse than each other - at the moment you're just a pair of clashing egos demonstrating that you have more in common than you care to realise.
Outside of the forum you'd probably get along... unless your self-employed selves happen to be involved in rival businesses.

I don't know which industry Dogma works in, but if it's anything beneath a nobel prize winning rocket scientist, then he's built himself up too much.

whatwhat wrote:
Unless you are suggesting that school grades are going to become more important at a later age, which is plain dumb, I don't really think my age is relevant.

You made your age relevant by commenting on it.

whatwhat wrote:
Not to mention your also of a similar age (as I recall) and the amount of times you flaunt your all powerful wisdom on these forums makes what you just said fairly ironic.

I'm not the one who used his age as support for an observation.

whatwhat wrote:
To explain. Considering the occasion you post anything outside of the off topic section occurs less frequently than Wesley Snipes applies sun tan lotion. On a site which, I feel I must remind you, is about wargaming. The only reason evident to anyone regarding why you actually post on here, is that somehow you are making some sort of significant impact on people by bringing them up on their supposed inaccuracies (which is basically what you do, no?). So do forgive me when I come to the conclusion that someone like you, as described above, has a slightly holier-than-thou sense of their own wisdom.

You're confusing wisdom and knowledge. I don't claim to be wise, I only claim to be knowledgeable.

Anyway, you've left out a number of possible variables concerning my motivations. Not the least of which being that the banter of this segment of the forum amuses me in manner not unlike the way reading the rest of the forum amuses me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

whatwhat wrote:
I don't know which industry Dogma works in, but if it's anything beneath a nobel prize winning rocket scientist, then he's built himself up too much.

To my mind building oneself up requires direct reference to one's capabilities. I've done this a few times, no doubt, but its hardly the core of my posting style. It might stick out in your mind because it seems to irritate you; I know that your posts stick out in my mind because they irritate me.

SilverMK2 wrote:These kids would be 17-18, since this particular conversation I was relating happened just before the schools broke up and they had done all their exams.

Though as you say, it is perfectly reasonable to not have a clear idea what you want to go on and do at the age of 16, by 18 you should have a clearer grasp of both what you want to do, and what you are likely to be qualified to do.

I know people in their mid to late 20s - talented, hard working people - who still don't know exactly what they want to do with their lives.

But the point is that no matter how decided or undecided you are about what you want to do after you leave school, you still need the grades to back you up in your choice. These children were talking about going to university with 2-3 D's at A-level... anyone who can't at least get 3C's really isn't trying, or isn't suited for acedemic study and may be better suited with a different type of learning.

Ah, I missed that their grades were poor. I see you point know.

The people who do
the same thing for their whole life
are unlucky ones.

Hrmmm... sorry, just came from haiku thread.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Read the post before you flip your wig, Kojak. All I'm saying is you don't necessarily rip on the guy who flunks music theory.

I said I know perfectly well that a lot of music students are there for the ride. A lot of them don't need to know the theory and need a few years to jack around until their band is ready, or else they're just wasting time because they're hopeless. They shouldn't be where they are, and you clearly should be because you appreciate what is being offered to you.

You just don't need to do a degree to learn music theory. The teachers are there to weed out people not suited to the academic side of it - musicology... but a lot of the people who flunk out are still going to go a long way, and in the mean time it's people like that whose wasted fees keep your precious music school open while they're closing the world over due to problems with funding. Respect them.

Most courses that deal with Popular Music are massively oversubscribed. The people who are lucky enough to get a place shouldn't be so arrogant as to think that they deserve to be there without doing any work. You have a lovely view about people who 'flunk music theory' - I remember when I used to think an academic education didn't matter because 'my band's gonna make it, man!' The reality is, the UK is a ridiculously competetive market to break into - my old band got a glowing review in the NME, interest from several major labels and the offer of a 5-album deal. We STILL didn't make it. It's not the '60s anymore. Hell, it's not even the '90s anymore! An increasing number of emerging recording artists now have a formal qualification in music or performing arts, or some other formal musical training. The time of the 'honest amateur' is coming to an end. It was a fad. Get over it.

I understand that you've come to music late in life and understand it in a different way...

I play 5 musical instruments and have been a gigging musician since I was 14. You?

Can I assume that you don't think I understand music in the same way as you do? Well I do. I've been there - I didn't used to think a musical education mattered. I've tried both ways, the main difference is that MY way means I'll have less chance of working a McJob for the rest of my life.

Of course you cannot analyse a score without understanding notation. It is made up of notation. Ever heard of playing by ear?

Yep, did it for 12 years. You?

How many orchestras 'play by ear', just out of interest?

Modes do come naturally to some, very rare people. It is a developed skill in any case, but there is more than one way to acquire it.

Explain to me what a 'mode' is. Bonus points if you don't use google. I think you might actually be trying to describe the difference between perfect and relative pitch.

You can't analyse the spelling of a written sentence if you can't read. You can still probably speak and have a perfectly good understanding of verbal grammar without knowing what the symbols mean. Some musicians really do just know. And let me tell you, people like me who had to learn it the normal way can be a bit envious, but I'm not going to pull my hair out over it. Of course you don't bloody guess. I wasn't having a go at you and I made it very clear that classical and jazz musicianship are different things.

They aren't all that different, actually. Many scholars are describing jazz as 'America's classical music', and analysing it in the same way.
What degree do you think I'm taking? Do you think I'm taking a music degree? Because I'm not, I'm taking Popular Musicology - it's my business to study the semiology of musical texts, and that requires a secure knowledge of musical theory.

Met many music producers? Try to have a sustained music theory conversation with one of them... oh yeah, that's not their job. It shouldn't take very long with a little bit of research for you to come up with a long list of extremely talented musicians and composers who have/had very little or no foundation in musical theory. The Box. Get out of it.

Your arse. Stop talking out of it.
Do a lot of succesful 20th century popular musicians have little or no formal training? Yes. Do they just 'know' or just 'do' it? Absolutely not. John Lennon and Paul McCartney between them wrote over 200 hundred songs before they ever released a record. No-one just 'does' it. They practise and practise. They learn.
Not that it makes a bit of difference. Some people enjoy having a hand. Other people want to know how it works, and why we have them. I fall into the latter camp - there's nothing wrong with the advancement of human understanding as an end in itself. That anti-intellectuallism has been a common affliction amongst fans and performers of popular music shouldn't make people ashamed of wanting to study it.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:The people who do
the same thing for their whole life
are unlucky ones.

Hrmmm... sorry, just came from haiku thread.

Win

Albatross... do you have to be so confrontational? Maybe you can take this to PM...

RiTides wrote:Albatross... do you have to be so confrontational? Maybe you can take this to PM...

Yes. Yes I do. Wanna make something of it?

*cracks knuckles*


Just kidding! I approach this forum the way I approach life - if I feel I'm being attacked, I don't defend myself as much as I just attack back twice as hard.

I'm usually smiling when I type. I dunno, perhaps I just come across more angry than I mean to sometimes.

Anyway, feth it. I don't care.

Albatross, get over it. I was never having a go at you and you brought all of this up out of absolutely nothing. I'm not going to waste my time quoting things apart. I know what the difference between modes, pitch and relative pitch are, and I won't stoop to appease you with a detailed answer after your childish and unprovoked attacks.

I too have been performing from a very young age, thanks very much to a grandparent who was a music teacher, and many friends with similar interests. As keyboards are my primary instrument, I have also usually been the theoretical foundation of performing associations I have been involved in. I'm sure that if you'd stop sitting on your balls we could have a civil conversation about it if we really wanted to. I'm also sure you couldn't find fault with my music theory marks . That doesn't make either of us any 'better' than someone who can't work with notation.

We clearly do have a very similar experience and understanding of music as one another, but we clearly have very different personalities otherwise. I'm sorry if I don't think that music theory teachers in tertiary institutions are the pinnacle of intellectualism, but this is just my experience and you can't expect any amount of frenzied abuse to make any difference to that. I don't know where you learned that as a coping mechanism but it's pretty fething weird.

I used to live with an extremely angry trombonist. Do you play brass by any chance?

If you have anything else to say, make it a conclusion or a PM, because I don't care to talk about this crap in this thread.

EDIT: And seeing that most recent post, maybe we do have a bit more in common again. My posts can come across as aggro too, but I'm just talking about what I know I know. Peace, man.

whatwhat and Dogma, Albatross and Artik Firangi...we need Shuma and Fateweaver to have it out in here next! Then we can all group hug and cry it out.
No?
...
FINE.

Albatross wrote:I'm usually smiling when I type. I dunno, perhaps I just come across more angry than I mean to sometimes.

Personally, I'd chalk it up to your avatar . Some sort of cringe/grimace/wink thing going on there? And is it you?

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Albatross, get over it. I was never having a go at you and you brought all of this up out of absolutely nothing. I'm not going to waste my time quoting things apart. I know what the difference between modes, pitch and relative pitch are, and I won't stoop to appease you with a detailed answer after your childish and unprovoked attacks.

Oh, come on, snowflake. I never said anything THAT bad. The Number 1 rule of Snide-Tennis is don't be a big fething girl about it!

That doesn't make either of us any 'better' than someone who can't work with notation.

That wasn't my point - my point was that on a course in which it is a vitally important component, and in which places are limited, it is VERY slack to get such a low mark, especially when you consider that entrants had to pass a short theory exam as part of the application process.

We clearly do have a very similar experience and understanding of music as one another, but we clearly have very different personalities otherwise. I'm sorry if I don't think that music theory teachers in tertiary institutions are the pinnacle of intellectualism, but this is just my experience and you can't expect any amount of frenzied abuse to make any difference to that. I don't know where you learned that as a coping mechanism but it's pretty fething weird.

If someone says something stupid, I say 'that's stupid'. I'm sorry that you can't give as good you get, but it really isn't my fault, and you shouldn't expect people to cut you some slack - especially when you act like a bit of a smart-arse, truth be told. It's worth pointing out that the classes in comp + theory at my uni are generally taken by Phds, as befits the setting and advanced nature of study. If your experience differs, then that's more of a commentary on where you went to school/college than anything else. That said, my uni isn't exactly a top institution - although it is at the cutting edge of popular music study.

I used to live with an extremely angry trombonist. Do you play brass by any chance?

No, but I AM actually considering taking up the trumpet. Perhaps it's a 'chicken/egg' thing?

EDIT: And seeing that most recent post, maybe we do have a bit more in common again. My posts can come across as aggro too, but I'm just talking about what I know I know.

Me too.

Peace, man.

Fair enough. Let's leave it there.


So... How about that local sports team?