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tldr.
But i will when i get home from work!

Please don't spam threads, ChaosGalvatron.

AgeOfEgos wrote:


Nurglitch, if you don't mind me asking, what is your profession? I ask as you are extremely well read or you major in this...as I consider myself semi-educated in philosophy and realize the depth of my ignorance after reading your posts!

he stayed at a Holiday Inn yesterday

AgeofEgos:

I have an MA in Philosophy, although I should point out that I washed out of school as a career. Beyond grad-school I've been a financial consultant, and am now back in school retraining as a technical writer.

KamikazeCanuck:

Regarding the difference between caricature and character, the novels are replete with the caricatures that the codex background presents. That's because the codex 'fluff' is there as flavour, putting a paint-scheme to the dull plastic of the miniatures, so to speak. They work great as foils, wandering around in background to convey the notion that the protagonist is both special and awesome, but they're two dimensional because they have no history with the reader or any unique motivation. Cliches make awful characters or protagonists (ex: Deus Sanguinius).

Conversely the protagonist is never going to be average, even if the work explicitly labels them as average (ex: Idiocracy, so they're going to deviate from the caricature for their archetype. You're going to get the self-serving Commissar like Ciaphas Cain who treats his authority over morale seriously because his own life is at stake, rather than out of fanaticism like the Tallarn Commissar, or madness like the ex-Commissar that Inquisitor Amberley employed. In fact the rational Cain being the protagonist in a mad universe like 40,000 makes his novels farcical, and therefore funny. The funny is far more attractive than any attempt to make Cain seem humane; it's his mask of the 'kind Commissar' he uses to disguise a self-interested coward.

On the other end of the spectrum you're going to get heroic characters like Uriel Ventris, whose challenge is that he's too damn awesome in a hyperbolic universe, so while he fits in, that just means that he plays straight and the result is melodrama (here defined as drama but overdone).

If you do find a genuinely good and humane character or background stock, then you just know something pretty awful is going to happen to him/her/it.

Nurglitch wrote:AgeofEgos:

I have an MA in Philosophy, although I should point out that I washed out of school as a career. Beyond grad-school I've been a financial consultant, and am now back in school retraining as a technical writer.

KamikazeCanuck:

Regarding the difference between caricature and character, the novels are replete with the caricatures that the codex background presents. That's because the codex 'fluff' is there as flavour, putting a paint-scheme to the dull plastic of the miniatures, so to speak. They work great as foils, wandering around in background to convey the notion that the protagonist is both special and awesome, but they're two dimensional because they have no history with the reader or any unique motivation. Cliches make awful characters or protagonists (ex: Deus Sanguinius).

Conversely the protagonist is never going to be average, even if the work explicitly labels them as average (ex: Idiocracy, so they're going to deviate from the caricature for their archetype. You're going to get the self-serving Commissar like Ciaphas Cain who treats his authority over morale seriously because his own life is at stake, rather than out of fanaticism like the Tallarn Commissar, or madness like the ex-Commissar that Inquisitor Amberley employed. In fact the rational Cain being the protagonist in a mad universe like 40,000 makes his novels farcical, and therefore funny. The funny is far more attractive than any attempt to make Cain seem humane; it's his mask of the 'kind Commissar' he uses to disguise a self-interested coward.

On the other end of the spectrum you're going to get heroic characters like Uriel Ventris, whose challenge is that he's too damn awesome in a hyperbolic universe, so while he fits in, that just means that he plays straight and the result is melodrama (here defined as drama but overdone).

If you do find a genuinely good and humane character or background stock, then you just know something pretty awful is going to happen to him/her/it.

Well like I said I haven't read Cain but that made him sound more interesting.

Anyways, like Manchu said I believe you can have a protangonist who is not a "mold-breaker" and still have an interesting story.

KamikazeCanuck:

You know, I don't think it's strictly necessary to repeat my entire posts just to post a two sentence comment. Or at all, really. If anyone wants to read what you're replying to, then I suspect they also have scroll bars on their browsers.

Also, maybe you'd like to explain how one can have a protagonist who is not remarkable, and still have an interesting story.

Also, I'm curious, what exactly do you mean when you say: "he stayed at a Holiday Inn yesterday" and how does that contribute to the thread?

Nurglitch wrote:

Also, I'm curious, what exactly do you mean when you say: "he stayed at a Holiday Inn yesterday" and how does that contribute to the thread?

Really? We're going to start doing the thread police thing in this thread, but only after the last three pages?

Thread police? Settle down Seaward, maybe I'm just baffled and confused about what that curious non sequitor is supposed to mean.

Nurglitch wrote:Thread police? Settle down Seaward, maybe I'm just baffled and confused about what that curious non sequitor is supposed to mean.

It's a reference to widespread commercials for Holiday Inn in the States. Usually you see someone doing something involving a great deal of skill and knowledge - major surgery, solving some unsolved equation, etc. Someone asks him, "Are you a doctor/mathematician/whatever?" and the person replies, "No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night." Implying they're smarter for having done so, and smart for having chosen to do so in the first place.

That's awful.

Nurglitch wrote:That's awful.

yes it is but obviously its not going to make sense if you haven't seen the commercial. As for quoting the whole thing, i don't know, I just pressed the quote button It's never offended anyone before.