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I'm currently working my way through the Horus Heresy novels, and I've liked them all up until Fulgrim - even Galaxy in Flames, and I'm not a big fan of Counter's work. Interestingly, I think Counter actually did the best job aside from Abnett at doing a character falling to Chaos in a sympathetic light in the form of the Titan moderati, rather than knowing from the second he's introduced which way he's going to go like most of the other characters in the series.

Fulgrim just seemed...I dunno. The whole daemon sword bit just felt like a cop out. He picked up a daemon sword, and suddenly he's all about Slaanesh. Seems a little too weak-willed for a Primarch.

Fulgrim has gotten a lot of criticism, so you are not alone. Galaxy in Flames, meanwhile, is the best thing I've ever read by Counter save only his short story Daemonblood. That story is probably my favorite piece of BL fiction overall. But back to the thread topic: Graham McNeill is very hit or miss and for me it's almost always a miss.

Excellent! Glad I'm not alone.

And yeah, as far as Counter goes, I'd read the Soul Drinkers Omnibus for some reason, intensely disliked it, and thought about simply skipping Galaxy In Flames. Glad I didn't.

Galaxy in Flames was excellent, probably my favourite HH novel so far.
I liked Fulgrim, while the daemon sword did push him to Chaos at least there was a bit of a path there. Rather than Horus who had 1 dream and bam hes bad.

I was thinking about it this morning, trying to decide which of the primarchs who fell had the best story/motivation, was going to wait till i could read the Index Astartes about the various primarchs that haven't been given much face time in HH.
I am eager to read The First Heretic, see how Lorgar fell.


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Seems a little too weak-willed for a Primarch.

Seems a lot of the Primarchs are weak-willed and easily manipulated.

Did Chaos try very hard to get the other primarchs (the ones that remained loyalists)? or did it focus primarily on the ones that had weaknesses? Fulgrim tried to get Ferrus onside but thats the only one i can recall. Im sure Horus tried to get sanguinus onside as well.

Something to consider in Fulgrim is the path to damnation described in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. In the Codex, damnation is a path paved with good intentions, and the Emperor's Children pretty much abandoned good intentions prior to the Heresy. They were trying to make pride a virtue, and like the Thousand Sons, the Luna Wolves, and the other Traitor Legions they basically opened themselves up for subversion. Fulgrim had damned himself long before he picked up the Daemon Sword of the Laer.

If anything the Sword simply marked the Legion's irrevocable damnation. That's not to say that the Sword didn't have an influence, but that its influence was more one of momentum, of exploiting existing flaws, and generally giving Fulgrim more rope with which to hang himself and his Legion.

I did like the ending where Ferrus Manus was killed, because that marked the point in the series where they finally admitted that the Primarchs were primarily psychic constructs, rather than just artificial humans.

ChaosGalvatron wrote:Galaxy in Flames was excellent, probably my favourite HH novel so far.
I liked Fulgrim, while the daemon sword did push him to Chaos at least there was a bit of a path there. Rather than Horus who had 1 dream and bam hes bad.

See, I actually expected Horus' fall to be pretty eye-rollingly bad too, having heard bits and pieces of it, but I was surprised at how plausible it actually was. It wasn't just the "dream" with him; he'd been given a huge task that he essentially couldn't handle, he was being kept in the dark about a lot of things. etc. The "dream" is a big part of it, sure, but calling it a dream is a little too tame for what it was. Bear in mind that he had no idea that Chaos even existed as we know it to exist in the 40K universe, and the fact that Chaos appears to have shown him nothing that wasn't true is also huge - it was out of context and out of order, sure, but all of it was essentially the truth. As far as experiencing it...I suspect it didn't feel like a dream, but more like if you, sitting right there, were told that what you're currently experiencing isn't real. You wouldn't believe it, because you're seeing it, tasting it, feeling it, hearing it, etc.

Spoiler:

Any idea if Fulgrim is still possessed 10,000 years later?

I'm sure he is.


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Nurglitch wrote:Something to consider in Fulgrim is the path to damnation described in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. In the Codex, damnation is a path paved with good intentions, and the Emperor's Children pretty much abandoned good intentions prior to the Heresy. They were trying to make pride a virtue, and like the Thousand Sons, the Luna Wolves, and the other Traitor Legions they basically opened themselves up for subversion. Fulgrim had damned himself long before he picked up the Daemon Sword of the Laer.

On the other hand, Saul Tarvitz successfully made pride a virtue without falling to Chaos, so I'm not so sure that Fulgrim couldn't have done the same.

I guess another one of my main problems with the story is that, by that point in the Heresy series, I was pretty fed up with the pattern of making it abundantly clear to the reader which Space Marines were going to turn and which ones were going to stay loyal. The Titan Moderati in Galaxy In Flames is, like I said, the only character I was actually surprised at. There's simply a little too much of the, "Eventual Traitors snarl and scowl and act like total while loyalists are pillars of virtue," in the series, and Fulgrim just brought it to a head for me.

ignore the sword thing and get to the real story of Fulgrim, brother against brother in a more personal way than any of the previous heresy books, the last scene where he stands over ferrus sealed it for me. best heresy book by far... ok maybe thousand sons... and first heretic... ok THIRD best is Fulgrim

So First Heretic is good? How does Lorgar turn? Is it as simple as looking for a new thing to worship or more complex?

You know, people seem to understand so little about faith. To me, that's what the whole Heresy is about. Where your faith is, determines how you turn out.

Now, when I say faith, I'm not talking about if you pray or some other silly thing. I'm talking about what you believe in.

Where was Horus' faith? Was it in the Emperor? No. How do we know? Because, from the very beginning, Horus was questioning his father's actions. He had faith in the Crusade. Once it was coming to an end, he had nothing to believe in. So, he was easy to get at. The vision simply gave Horus something else to believe in.

See what I mean?

I HOPE, more than anything, that the author gets this right in First Heretic.

The story of Lorgar is one of my favorite in 40K. Can you imagine actually meeting your god in the flesh? Talk about powerful stuff.

Now, imagine your god coming to you, and telling you that you have failed him. Imagine your god telling you that he no longer wants your devotion or love. Imagine your god telling you that all of your efforts to worship him have not only failed, but made him mad.

Wow...I don't know how you could survive that.

Of course, that's the point. Lorgar DIDN'T survive that. He became a thing of Chaos...

Whether he will appear again in later books or not, the lack of closure on Saul Tarvitz' story in Galaxy in Flames was kind of bemusing. I had to flick back to see if I had missed something, but no he's just there and then...not mentioned again.

whatwhat wrote:Whether he will appear again in later books or not, the lack of closure on Saul Tarvitz' story in Galaxy in Flames was kind of bemusing. I had to flick back to see if I had missed something, but no he's just there and then...not mentioned again.

Er, what? He

I was unconvinced by the description (or lack there of) of Horus' fall. Fulgrim's decent was much more detailed and made sense. Fulgrim wasn't just prideful, he was vain and arrogant. Even the smallest amount of both can be manipulated and drawn out by the great powers of chaos, especially if you don't realize that can even happen. Horus displayed some of the same symptoms as Fulgrim, but it was much more subtle and I think it was too subtle. As seen from the eyes of Loken, I can understand why it would be more subtle, but the book was not written specifically from his point of view and I think it could have been a little more descriptive.

Now Sault Tarvitz was proud but drew his pride from a different source than Fulgrim. Just like in A Thousand Sons Ohthere Wyrdmake talks about how he does not desire power and implies that he only uses his abilities for survival and nothing more. Really Saul Tarvitz was just more practical and grounded. He didn't let being a nearly immortal super-human go to his head as it were. Some of his compatriots however were a little full of themselves. Saul took pride in his legion's accomplishments but also realized how much hard work it took to maintain that level of "perfection."

It also seems to me that the primarchs are truely innocent. Much like the way Adam and Eve are portrayed the primarchs extoll that same sort of parodoxical lack of knowledge. The Emperor tells them bits and pieces while witholding knowledge and then for some reason expects them to behave a certain way.

Seaward wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Whether he will appear again in later books or not, the lack of closure on Saul Tarvitz' story in Galaxy in Flames was kind of bemusing. I had to flick back to see if I had missed something, but no he's just there and then...not mentioned again.

Er, what? He

Spoiler:

was on Isstvan III; dude's dead.

Could you point me to the page where he dies? I could have sworn it never said anything about him dieing.

Or are you just assuming he's dead because he was a loyalist on isstvan 3? In which case you've missed my point about there being no closure in the book and also you may be wrong as there are still questions over what happened to some loyalists on Isstvan 3.

whatwhat wrote:

Seaward wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Whether he will appear again in later books or not, the lack of closure on Saul Tarvitz' story in Galaxy in Flames was kind of bemusing. I had to flick back to see if I had missed something, but no he's just there and then...not mentioned again.

Er, what? He

Spoiler:

was on Isstvan III; dude's dead.

Could you point me to the page where he dies? I could have sworn it never said anything about him dieing.

Or are you just assuming he's dead because he was a loyalist on isstvan 3? In which case you've missed my point about there being no closure in the book and also you may be wrong as there are still questions over what happened to some loyalists on Isstvan 3.

So I suppose you think Butch and Sundance made it out of Bolivia alive, too?

I'm assuming he's dead because they virus bombed it, firebombed it, assaulted it for months with three legions...then firebombed it again after they'd killed everybody.

Seaward wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Seaward wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Whether he will appear again in later books or not, the lack of closure on Saul Tarvitz' story in Galaxy in Flames was kind of bemusing. I had to flick back to see if I had missed something, but no he's just there and then...not mentioned again.

Er, what? He

Spoiler:

was on Isstvan III; dude's dead.

Could you point me to the page where he dies? I could have sworn it never said anything about him dieing.

Or are you just assuming he's dead because he was a loyalist on isstvan 3? In which case you've missed my point about there being no closure in the book and also you may be wrong as there are still questions over what happened to some loyalists on Isstvan 3.

So I suppose you think Butch and Sundance made it out of Bolivia alive, too?

I'm assuming he's dead because they virus bombed it, firebombed it, assaulted it for months with three legions...then firebombed it again after they'd killed everybody.

So yeh you did miss my point. Like I said here's no clossure on Saul Tarvitz in the book.

As for your statement there is a lot of ambiguity in the book. Take for example Rylanor the ec dreadnaught, who tarvitz asked to go guard something underground (and that's all we are told). Also Abnett has hinted we havent even seen the last of Loken yet. So sorry if I don't take your assesment that everythng layalist got screwed on Istvan III, that's not the picture I was left with after galaxy in flames.

I also like to think Loken somehow survived, no harm in hoping.

I'm reading the series, half way through 'The Flight of the Eisenstein' by James Swallow. I personally think his writing style suits the series really well and is 2nd only to Abnett so far.

Not really heard anyone talk about this book but I'm really enjoying it, think Garro is pretty cool and like the divisions in his squad.

Also gutted to hear noone thought much of the Soul Drinkers omnibus as I have it on the shelf awaiting reading. Also the Ultramarine omnibus and I already have my reservations about that one...

whatwhat wrote:

So yeh you did miss my point. Like I said here's no clossure on Saul Tarvitz in the book.

As for your statement there is a lot of ambiguity in the book. Take for example Rylanor the ec dreadnaught, who tarvitz asked to go guard something underground (and that's all we are told). Also Abnett has hinted we havent even seen the last of Loken yet. So sorry if I don't take your assesment that everythng layalist got screwed on Istvan III, that's not the picture I was left with after galaxy in flames.

Those are the final words about Tarvitz and his band in Galaxy In Flames. Now, do we actually see a bomb hit and kill Tarvitz? No. But, as I said, we also never see the Bolivian army gun down Butch and Sundance. Doesn't change the fact that they're dead. So's Tarvitz.

Also, I'm not sure where the bit about Rylanor being asked to guard something underground is, as it's not in Galaxy In Flames.


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Don Cooperino wrote:I also like to think Loken somehow survived, no harm in hoping.

See, and I think Loken's even LESS likely a survivor than Tarvitz, and I'm sure Tarvitz is stone cold dead.

I'm reading the series, half way through 'The Flight of the Eisenstein' by James Swallow. I personally think his writing style suits the series really well and is 2nd only to Abnett so far.

Not really heard anyone talk about this book but I'm really enjoying it, think Garro is pretty cool and like the divisions in his squad.

I enjoyed Flight of the Eisenstein as well, the end in particular. As you're reading it, I won't spoil it for you, but it's just as cool as everything else.

Also gutted to hear noone thought much of the Soul Drinkers omnibus as I have it on the shelf awaiting reading. Also the Ultramarine omnibus and I already have my reservations about that one...

Eh. Soul Drinkers was the first 40K stuff I read...and I followed it with the Eisenhorn trilogy, which probably makes it seem even less good than it is. It's not outright terrible, by any means, I just wasn't a fan. Felt a little too fanwankish.

I've got the problem it seems a lot of people have. I've read lots of Dan Abnett (Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunts Ghosts, Titanicus etc) and I'm struggling to find another writer as good.

Any suggestions?


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I've got the problem it seems a lot of people have. I've read lots of Dan Abnett (Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunts Ghosts, Titanicus etc) and I'm struggling to find another writer as good.

Any suggestions?

I fyou lie Abnett the you will like Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

I read Armageddon and was a little disappointed in truth, and I'm building a BT army! I've heard his books about Chaos are good though, maybe give them a try. Cheers!

Soulhunter is excellent and most of the audio book Throne of Lies is also great. Cadian Blood is a good, sometimes wonderful, read. I haven't picked up Helsreach as I'm not a big BT fan.

Yeah I've heard good things about Soulhunter, that's sealed it, I'll give it a read, thanks for the tip

Seaward wrote:Also, I'm not sure where the bit about Rylanor being asked to guard something underground is, as it's not in Galaxy In Flames.

Definitely is. I'll have a look where tonight.

edit: heh. No you are right it's in Fulgrim. page 429. On isstvan II though.

Soulhunters is pretty good, although it leads to the question of the distribution of Techmarines amongst the Pre-Herey forces, as the Night Lords in Soulhunter depend on a Techpriest. Otherwise it's a great book about how 10,000 year old veterans of the Heresy survived that long - morale has gone to pot, equipment failure is common and typically cannabilized, crew is elderly or kidnapped, and being slapped in a Dreadnought sucks. Oh, and there's an donkey-cave in your squad that keeps muttering about Kharnath...

Not to mention it has only been 100 years by their watches.

I'm pretty unhappy with A D-B's portrayal of the NLs. It's a well written book. But it isn't really true to what had been established about them and made them cool.

(More thoughts on that here.)

I will politely disagree with you on that.

I think he has created a very good and vivid portrayal of one particular company of Night Lords, as told from the POV of a very anti-chaos prophet.
Any assumptions that the entire Legion is like them is a bit of a leap.

Talos has visions of the future and this lends him much of the Primarch's pragmatism.
He has no illusions about the "greatness" of the IoM.
At the same time, he has no respect for those who give in to worshipping Chaos.

Now based on "The Core", it looks like there will be an addition of a Raptor squad, who are much more like the "traditional" idea of Night Lords.
Also, "Throne of Lies" gives the idea that much of the Legion is different from Talos' company.

Talos' company gives me the impression of one that suffered greatly from inattentiveness from their leader, and Talos has presumed to lead in his stead, as best he was allowed.


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Seaward wrote:I'm currently working my way through the Horus Heresy novels, and I've liked them all up until Fulgrim - even Galaxy in Flames, and I'm not a big fan of Counter's work. Interestingly, I think Counter actually did the best job aside from Abnett at doing a character falling to Chaos in a sympathetic light in the form of the Titan moderati, rather than knowing from the second he's introduced which way he's going to go like most of the other characters in the series.

Fulgrim just seemed...I dunno. The whole daemon sword bit just felt like a cop out. He picked up a daemon sword, and suddenly he's all about Slaanesh. Seems a little too weak-willed for a Primarch.

Also, its an Abnett novel. The endings of his books tend to suffer as it seems he crams in an ending just as his dead-line approaches.

edit- Gah, was wrong, its a Graham McNiell book. The end just made it feel like an Abnett book.

Still reading through the series, I'm at Descent of Angels so far, and although I enjoyed Fulgrim I felt it had some small flaws to it.



All in all, I thought it was a good read. Not as good as Galaxy in Flames but one of the more enjoyable ones.

response to your 1.

I think this was glossed over in anticipation of a full novel focused on it later.

Valkyrie wrote:Still reading through the series, I'm at Descent of Angels so far, and although I enjoyed Fulgrim I felt it had some small flaws to it.

Spoiler:

1: I felt that they could have extended the Drop Site Massacre a bit. Seriously, the most important part of the heresy and it's over within a dozen pages. I was expecting an entire chapter devoted to the betrayal part alone, althought the duel between Ferrus and Fulgrim was very enjoyable to read.

2: I thought Fulgrim's degredation came from the Anathame, not the Laer blade he recovered.


However, I thought they idea of the self-harming artist slowly degrading and her work becoming more and more grotesque was very interesting.

All in all, I thought it was a good read. Not as good as Galaxy in Flames but one of the more enjoyable ones.

To be honest, I've found myself enjoying the non-battle portions of the novels far more than the battle portions. I think there's only so much, "And then he shot, and then he ducked, and then he swung his sword, and blood was places," I can take.