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Thanks for expanding that thought Nurglitch, I always value your input.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

striderx wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:yes. many of you would be surprised at how often I win.
AF

Depends on how good your opponents are, not if they are 4 years old.
Well, what's your latest performance in any GT or the Ard Boyz?

That kind of sums up your performance.

When you say "Vanilla" do you mean:

Ultramarines with Combat Tactics?
Salamanders with Twin-Linked Melta and Flamer weapons?
Imperial Fists/Crimson Fists with Stubborn?
White Scars with Outflank?
Raven Guard with Fleet?

More like Neapolitan. Because different tactics will apply. That's not counting the differences in using Bikes as Troops, and armies based around the Forge. Sometimes I wonder what people are thinking when they take Vulkan He'stan and leaving all their Techmarines at home. And they have Techmarines that are Independent Characters, and Drop Pods big enough for them and a squad. Iron Priests have no Independent Character status, and can't Bolster Defences. Blood Angel Techmarines aren't Independent Characters.

Stick the Techmarine in a Land Raider with a squad of Tactical Marines, or use him to bolster the crew of a Thunderfire Cannon, or just have him lurk near a patch of Dreadnoughts. A Venerable Dreadnought and a Techmarine are a great team.

personally I love tactical squads. BA I take assault squads and miss my bolters, SW I miss my sgt, chaos ... well Nurge marines are nice but expensive
Gimme 3 tactical squads any day

Nurglitch wrote:When you say "Vanilla" do you mean:

Ultramarines with Combat Tactics?
Salamanders with Twin-Linked Melta and Flamer weapons?
Imperial Fists/Crimson Fists with Stubborn?
White Scars with Outflank?
Raven Guard with Fleet?

More like Neapolitan. Because different tactics will apply. That's not counting the differences in using Bikes as Troops, and armies based around the Forge. Sometimes I wonder what people are thinking when they take Vulkan He'stan and leaving all their Techmarines at home. And they have Techmarines that are Independent Characters, and Drop Pods big enough for them and a squad. Iron Priests have no Independent Character status, and can't Bolster Defences. Blood Angel Techmarines aren't Independent Characters.

Stick the Techmarine in a Land Raider with a squad of Tactical Marines, or use him to bolster the crew of a Thunderfire Cannon, or just have him lurk near a patch of Dreadnoughts. A Venerable Dreadnought and a Techmarine are a great team.

Yessir. I meant all of them. I, however, totally forgot about biker troops, which are very good IMO compared to the rest listed above.

I guess what I can say is that Tacs are only as good as the synergy of the entire army. But pound for pound, other Tac equivalents are just better.

pdawg517 wrote:

I wish people would just stop comparing tacticals and grey hunters. They are different units that perform different roles. Tacticals camp objectives with support where as grey hunters are more of a participant in the active battle.
.

Except that Grey Hunters camp objectives just as well as Tacticals do, and for cheaper. They can actually fight off assault and bob any vehicles that come too close as well.

Grey Hunters don't camp objectives well because they have a hard and fast range of 24". Outside of that range and they can't do anything. Which means either you place your objectives close to where your opponent will be able to muster plenty of force to curb your Grey Hunters, or far enough away that you'll be fighting short a squad of Grey Hunters.

In fact, the interesting thing about Grey Hunters is how absolutely mediocre they are if they can't get into close combat. Because Counter-Attack is only useful in close combat, and only then if the Wolves weren't already locked in combat. Counter-Attack doesn't make them less vulnerable to shooting, pinning, and charging. In fact having that rule instead of Red Thirst or Combat Tactics makes them more vulnerable.

Indeed, they share a weakness with the Icon-toting Chaos Space Marines in that the loss of the Icon means the loss of a squad-wide bonus. At least Chaos Space Marines don't depend on a specialist for their Ld9 (although they do for Ld10). Specialists can be picked off, by Mind War, or Telion, or a Vindicare, or by the simple act of overwhelming fire.

Grey Hunters do close combat well, and Counter-Attack plays to their strength. The Red Thirst likewise plays to the strengths of Blood Angel Assault Squads and reprieves them of a weakness, so they can't be pinned down, and use that strength effectiveless.

Tactical Squads do shooting best, and Combat Tactics plays to their strength. Upon Regrouping a Tactical Squad can fire its Heavy Weapon, or up to 24". An Ultramarine squad can Fall Back when suffering casualties from shooting without interfering with their stationary shooting ability when they regroup, and even buy themselves a new Shooting phase if they were pinned down. They can get out of danger, out of charge range as well as combat itself. However, in order for any of this to happen, the Ultramarine player has to use tactics whereby units support each other for synergy. Units that fall back need to be able to fall back more than 6" away from the enemy, and you need units positioned to both screen their regrouping and take advantage of the targets their movement frees up.

Dreadnoughts are Walkers and never Fall Back or suffer No Retreat. If you have a Tactical Squad in combat with a unit at the beginning of your own movement phase, then enter combat with your Dreadnought, lock the unit in place, and either win the combat with back up, or retreat the survivors of the Squad using Combat Tactics while the enemy is locked to the Dreadnought.

Basically Codex: Space Marines rewards the player that can use their army as a single entity rather than a collection of units.

Nurglitch wrote:Grey Hunters don't camp objectives well because they have a hard and fast range of 24". Outside of that range and they can't do anything. Which means either you place your objectives close to where your opponent will be able to muster plenty of force to curb your Grey Hunters, or far enough away that you'll be fighting short a squad of Grey Hunters.

In fact, the interesting thing about Grey Hunters is how absolutely mediocre they are if they can't get into close combat. Because Counter-Attack is only useful in close combat, and only then if the Wolves weren't already locked in combat. Counter-Attack doesn't make them less vulnerable to shooting, pinning, and charging. In fact having that rule instead of Red Thirst or Combat Tactics makes them more vulnerable.

Indeed, they share a weakness with the Icon-toting Chaos Space Marines in that the loss of the Icon means the loss of a squad-wide bonus. At least Chaos Space Marines don't depend on a specialist for their Ld9 (although they do for Ld10). Specialists can be picked off, by Mind War, or Telion, or a Vindicare, or by the simple act of overwhelming fire.

Grey Hunters do close combat well, and Counter-Attack plays to their strength. The Red Thirst likewise plays to the strengths of Blood Angel Assault Squads and reprieves them of a weakness, so they can't be pinned down, and use that strength effectiveless.

Tactical Squads do shooting best, and Combat Tactics plays to their strength. Upon Regrouping a Tactical Squad can fire its Heavy Weapon, or up to 24". An Ultramarine squad can Fall Back when suffering casualties from shooting without interfering with their stationary shooting ability when they regroup, and even buy themselves a new Shooting phase if they were pinned down. They can get out of danger, out of charge range as well as combat itself. However, in order for any of this to happen, the Ultramarine player has to use tactics whereby units support each other for synergy. Units that fall back need to be able to fall back more than 6" away from the enemy, and you need units positioned to both screen their regrouping and take advantage of the targets their movement frees up.

Dreadnoughts are Walkers and never Fall Back or suffer No Retreat. If you have a Tactical Squad in combat with a unit at the beginning of your own movement phase, then enter combat with your Dreadnought, lock the unit in place, and either win the combat with back up, or retreat the survivors of the Squad using Combat Tactics while the enemy is locked to the Dreadnought.

Basically Codex: Space Marines rewards the player that can use their army as a single entity rather than a collection of units.

Im gonna disagree with you there, Nurg. Greyhunters are good, because they are GOOD at shooting (at medium range). In fact, using them to engage in CC is a bad idea. Here's why:

-They have Counter Attack. When fighting other MEQs, instead of just charging them because of their extra attack, you can always just rapidfire them instead. Because assaulting MEQs needs a 4 to hit and another 4 to wound. Shooting them with bolters and 2 special weapons that hits on a 3 with no fightback is a better proposition.

-2 special weapons. Point for point, it is hard to outshoot greyhunters. Because they have 2 special weapons, 1 which they get free. Special weapons still fire even after moving, something a 10man tac squad doesnt enjoy when you want your heavy weapon to fire.

-Greyhunters are bad at CC. Why? because we all know that a squad is only as good as its power weapons. 5 Marines with a power weapon will beat 10 marines that doesnt have one most of the time. And bec, they only have an attack profile of 1. Its not really a good idea to purchase power weapons.

-Greyhunters have Ld of 8. 8 is pretty low when you start losing assault (which you will, assuming that units they engage have power weapons, which a competitive player will bring. And no, MotW is not good enough.) . You lose assault by 1, you have to pass Ld at 7. Very bad and very hard.

Bottom line:

10 Greyhunters with 2 flamers, 2 meltas or 2 plasmas will beat any configuration of tac squads in a shooting fest. In fact, the only way the tac squad can win is if they decide to take a Pfist and charge the GH's.

Vanilla SM aren't supposed to try and out assualt BA or our missile spam SW. They have things in their codex the other two can't do. Tried a Master of the Forge and 6 dreadnought list? Biker army? They also have a number fo HQ choices the others don't. Try to use them as a different list and play to their uniqueness ...

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

Not true the amount of add on you can provide to a GH makes them awesome. i.e. wolf standard re-roll every 1 in an assault phase - difficult terrain test, to hit, to wound, armour save. For 10 points fantastic.

Powerguy wrote:
Also suggesting that Rhinos are terrible units is ridiculous. For 35pts they are an absolute steal and for a list which wants to push into the mid field they are much better than Razorbacks as you can fire out the top. If you want to do a Razor spam list then SW probably do that better anyway.

rhinos dont do their main job - providing mobility to the squad - very well because they constantly get zapped by autocannons meltaguns lascannons etc. you need a more reliable mobility option.

Not if you use Rhino rush correctly pop smoke at the same time and pivot one rhino to protect two others.


Scouts certainly aren't great, but if all you want is a unit to grab an objective and don't care about damage output then they can do that for cheaper than Tacticals can.

rhetorical question.... why take a unit that isnt great... if you dont have to? isnt a great army made up of great units? so if you take just ok units arent you going to end up with a just ok army....?

Very few armies can say every unit in their codex is great even guard have some distinctly average units

The two most important abilities the nilla Codex has are actually missing from the list of stuff AF posted. Combat Squads and Combat/Chapter Tactics are imo what set the standard Marine codex apart from the others, they give you an unmatched flexibility with your list. The key thing to remember is that you are not BA or SW and there is no point playing or designing your list in the same way.

combat tactics is good on good units. splitting a bad unit in two just gives you two smaller bad units.
the ability to run away on command isnt the kind of go-for-the-throat aggression that I look for in a unit.
but thats just me.
AF

And that is where you fail to appreciate the tactics of C:SM combat squads are a fantastic option to have that allows you massive tactical diversity whilst keeping the same army list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voronesh wrote:I wouldnt rate Tacts as pure junk.

I was rather wondering whyd you list the Vanguard vets as 5th, as i would say theyre the crappiest of the bunch. Just say no to vanguard.

I just listed in order they occurred to me. no particular reason they're 5th.

And Rhinos arent junk, this is 5th ed, live by mech, die by the mech. If you play footslogger you either ave a very good plan (Shoot em all to hell works/Deep strike shenanigans) or you set yourself up for a hard game.

*mech* is good. its *rhinos* you want to avoid. dead rhino = dead squad. rhino is av11.
AF

Yuber wrote:Im gonna disagree with you there, Nurg. Greyhunters are good, because they are GOOD at shooting (at medium range). In fact, using them to engage in CC is a bad idea. Here's why:

-They have Counter Attack. When fighting other MEQs, instead of just charging them because of their extra attack, you can always just rapidfire them instead. Because assaulting MEQs needs a 4 to hit and another 4 to wound. Shooting them with bolters and 2 special weapons that hits on a 3 with no fightback is a better proposition.

-2 special weapons. Point for point, it is hard to outshoot greyhunters. Because they have 2 special weapons, 1 which they get free. Special weapons still fire even after moving, something a 10man tac squad doesnt enjoy when you want your heavy weapon to fire.

-Greyhunters are bad at CC. Why? because we all know that a squad is only as good as its power weapons. 5 Marines with a power weapon will beat 10 marines that doesnt have one most of the time. And bec, they only have an attack profile of 1. Its not really a good idea to purchase power weapons.

-Greyhunters have Ld of 8. 8 is pretty low when you start losing assault (which you will, assuming that units they engage have power weapons, which a competitive player will bring. And no, MotW is not good enough.) . You lose assault by 1, you have to pass Ld at 7. Very bad and very hard.

-Counter attack is great. But If you are trying to counterattack sternguard...well... AP3 bolters beat 2 plasma gunners quite often.

-2 special weapons at 150/155/160 points is pretty and, in a vacuum, will outshoot a tac squad. But in the same vacuum,My 115 vindi will outshoot your hunters, since you won't get close enough to use those melta's or get side shot on with prasma.

-Bad at CC...true. They certainly won't be clearing up swarms of genestealers with their fists. But having double the attacks of a tac marine doesn't leave the tac marine saying "man these grey hunters are pushovers!"


I am just playing the devils advocate here, but I'm doing so to point out things in 40k can be pretty subjective. A Tac marine isn't considered a solid CC fighter by pretty much anyone, but a guard squad ain't happy to be in close combat with 'em. Bolter's (according to AF and a few others) are terribad guns, but last time I rapid fired a mob of orks after flanking their cover they were pretty damn good. Havok squads were considered fairly crap when i started posting on these forums, last thread I saw about them they had quite a few fans of ML or AC wielding CSM's, after the metagame changed with new nids, MEQ's and now new DE... I think part of being a good general here is recognizing when and where your units have their pro's and con's. You wouldn't charge a assault terminator squad with grey hunters- but you'd gleefully do it to the IG HWS sitting on an objective!

Wel...you get to be called SMurfs instead of Edward/Jacob Marines...

Other than that, Vulkan Armies and Bike Armies, off the top of the head.

Yuber:

Tactical Squad with Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon vs Grey Hunters with 2x Plasma Gun. No contest.

If we start at 24", then you can either shooting 8 Bolters shots and 2 Plasma shots and hope you get lucky against 8 Bolter shots, 1 Plasma Shot, and 1 Plasma Blast, or you can weather a turn of shooting as you attempt to close to 12". Because sure you're mobile, but the range of a Plasma Cannon means you can't step out of range easily, and to step up to 12" means you need forgo shooting for at least a turn.

Even better, if you get a solid 25% casualties in one turn the Space Marines can automatically fall back, automatically regroup automatically, and then use the 36" range of their Plasma Cannon to continue to shoot the Grey Hunters. Even if they ran the full 12" they'll still be in range.

At 12" range the Grey Hunter's Plasma Guns are putting out four shots, which is riskier than the three shots that the Tactical Marines Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon are putting out. Against, if you cause enough casualties, they can fall back out of assault range, regroup, and pour on the fire as if they'd never moved.

I would like to give hearty thanks to the people who helped me with my original question.

on to the people taliking about grey hunters, I appreciate the information but please take your thread jacking somewhere else.

Nurglitch wrote:Yuber:

Tactical Squad with Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon vs Grey Hunters with 2x Plasma Gun. No contest.

If we start at 24", then you can either shooting 8 Bolters shots and 2 Plasma shots and hope you get lucky against 8 Bolter shots, 1 Plasma Shot, and 1 Plasma Blast, or you can weather a turn of shooting as you attempt to close to 12". Because sure you're mobile, but the range of a Plasma Cannon means you can't step out of range easily, and to step up to 12" means you need forgo shooting for at least a turn.

Even better, if you get a solid 25% casualties in one turn the Space Marines can automatically fall back, automatically regroup automatically, and then use the 36" range of their Plasma Cannon to continue to shoot the Grey Hunters. Even if they ran the full 12" they'll still be in range.

At 12" range the Grey Hunter's Plasma Guns are putting out four shots, which is riskier than the three shots that the Tactical Marines Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon are putting out. Against, if you cause enough casualties, they can fall back out of assault range, regroup, and pour on the fire as if they'd never moved.

The Plasma Cannon can only wound 1 marine when placed properly. On the bit about falling back and shooting: thats exactly what a SW player would want you to do in an actual game. You sacrifice an objective to gain fire superiority, you needed to fall back because the GH will rip you to shreds with rapidfire or out-assault you. Tacs simply cannot stay around and slug it out at rapid fire range.

AllergicToTyranids wrote:I would like to give hearty thanks to the people who helped me with my original question.

on to the people taliking about grey hunters, I appreciate the information but please take your thread jacking somewhere else.

I tried to help out by alerting a MOD to the jacking of your thread but to no avail. One last thought on C:SM. While taking one of the special characters will get you cool abilities don't overlook Combat Tactics. Being able to choose to run away after getting shot at so you can rapid fire into a unit next turn rather than get assaulted by them is quite a good little mechanic to use. I have had players do this against me and it can be frustrating to play against but super effective for the one using the tactic.

Yuber:

I see you're accounting for scatter on the Plasma Cannon and assuming that the Tactical Squad would be on an objective, rather than falling back to the objective. Something that Combat Tactics does is make Space Marine players form a line of battle. You don't go camp objectives, you go camp 7" in front of them, and lock the enemy down away from those objectives.

Because a Plasma Cannon will more reliably kill two Space Marines can a Plasma Gun will assuming a full 2" coherency and line formation. Why fall back if given the opportunity? Well, no point in trying to win a grinding match with a unit that carries only slightly less firepower, so fall back to where they are weak and you are strong because it costs you nothing.

I mean the Tactical Squad could stick around and more reliably win in a firefight between them and a Grey Hunter Squad. But why would they when the Space Marine player can take advantage of Combat Tactics, And They Shall Know No Fear, and a Heavy Weapon?

The best part is using Combat Squads to split the Tactical Squad in half. One Combat Squad is armed entirely with Bolters and Includes the Sergeant. The other Combat Squad is armed with a Plasma Gun and a Plasma Cannon, and getting a cover save from the squad in front. The back-up squad holds the line so that the front squad can fall back to somewhere that they can automatically regroup and shoot their attacker in combination with the backup squad, or run back into the screening position.

That's the advantage of Codex: Space Marines (excluding Chapter Tactics), that both Combat Tactics and Combat Squads allow the squad a sort of bonus like how the Wargear of Grey Hunters and Chaos Space Marines give them a bonus attack. Combat Tactics confers the option of an extra move. They can move, assault, and fall back all on the same turn. The move is risky in the sense that the unit risks being trapped falling back. The move is free in the sense that the unit suffers no shooting consequences at the end of the move, unlike ordinary regrouping units would - those units would count as moving for the purposes of shooting, so no Heavy Weapons or full range on Rapid Fire Weapons, and no Fall Back 18", regroup, move 12", assault 6".

The interoperability of units in the Space Marine Codex isn't just defined by their ability to transport x models, or stack rules (Like a Chaplain in a Terminator Assault Squad), but by the formation of models on the board. You have a better possibility of moving forward in one turn than back (6" move +1D6" run = 1/6 chance of 12", 2D6" fall back = 1/36). Your weapons have 12", 24", 36", and 48" ranges. Your bases are 1" in diameter (or close enough) and your maximum unit coherency is 2" in a line formation. Blast markers come in 3" and 5", and templates are 8" long.

This means defense in depth, and the ability to fall back to an advantage.

AllergicToTyranids wrote:I would like to give hearty thanks to the people who helped me with my original question.

on to the people taliking about grey hunters, I appreciate the information but please take your thread jacking somewhere else.

hey.... alot of us responded to your original question. you were off doing something else. if you want to keep your thread on topic try posting on it.
AF

This may have been said before, but advantages of the Regular SM codex are:

Null zone librarians
Cheap TH/SS Terminators
Scoring Sternguard with Pedro
Vulkan melta/flamer spam
Combat squads and combat tactics
Wide variation of Special character choices (Lysander, Vulkan, Pedro, Shrike ect.)
Unlimited chapter selection possibilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This may have been said before, but advantages of the Regular SM codex are:

Null zone librarians
Cheap TH/SS Terminators
Scoring Sternguard with Pedro
Vulkan melta/flamer spam
Combat squads and combat tactics
Wide variation of Special character choices (Lysander, Vulkan, Pedro, Shrike ect.)
Unlimited chapter selection possibilities.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

AllergicToTyranids wrote:I would like to give hearty thanks to the people who helped me with my original question.

on to the people taliking about grey hunters, I appreciate the information but please take your thread jacking somewhere else.

hey.... alot of us responded to your original question. you were off doing something else. if you want to keep your thread on topic try posting on it.
AF

It isn't up to the OP to keep his thread on topic. That is the responsibility of the members of the Dakka community, as members of the community we agree to abide by certain rules and etiquette. Part of that is keeping on the topic of the thread in which we are posting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

scubasteve04 wrote:This may have been said before, but advantages of the Regular SM codex are:

Null zone librarians
Cheap TH/SS Terminators
Scoring Sternguard with Pedro
Vulkan melta/flamer spam
Combat squads and combat tactics
Wide variation of Special character choices (Lysander, Vulkan, Pedro, Shrike ect.)
Unlimited chapter selection possibilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This may have been said before, but advantages of the Regular SM codex are:

Null zone librarians
Cheap TH/SS Terminators
Scoring Sternguard with Pedro
Vulkan melta/flamer spam
Combat squads and combat tactics
Wide variation of Special character choices (Lysander, Vulkan, Pedro, Shrike ect.)
Unlimited chapter selection possibilities.

I agree with this. I believe I forgot all about Null Zone librarians in my previous posts. Null Zone is a fantastic psychic power.

Don't forget to add:
-Army of Bikers possible.

w/e. I didnt bring up grey hunters. I had a one line response to someone else bringing them up, then half the board when ape gak. point is alot of people did respond to OP. he didnt respond back so the conversation moved on. AF

Grey Templar wrote:Chapter masters and Captains are poor choices

A captain on a bike w/ relic blade, SS, artificier armour does well. 195pts for 4x S6, ignoring armour attacks, which you need 5's to hit, 5's to wound, and 2+ armour. If you are lucky enough to be wielding a PW, it's still 3+. Combine that with a command squad w/SS and PW on bikes and a chaplain on bike, you can get:
(on the charge)

14 TL boltgun shots
4 S7 no-armour attacks
18 S5 no-armour attacks
all T5, needing 4's to hit, 5's to wound, then fail armour and then feel no pain.
Assuming you're fellow SM's, that means if you dish out 36 attacks, only one will die.

That's one tough cookie.

Under 600pts. (not bad).

sadly you can't use a SS with a relic blade

Yes you can

*look at codex

Nurglitch wrote:Yuber:

I see you're accounting for scatter on the Plasma Cannon and assuming that the Tactical Squad would be on an objective, rather than falling back to the objective. Something that Combat Tactics does is make Space Marine players form a line of battle. You don't go camp objectives, you go camp 7" in front of them, and lock the enemy down away from those objectives.

Because a Plasma Cannon will more reliably kill two Space Marines can a Plasma Gun will assuming a full 2" coherency and line formation. Why fall back if given the opportunity? Well, no point in trying to win a grinding match with a unit that carries only slightly less firepower, so fall back to where they are weak and you are strong because it costs you nothing.

I mean the Tactical Squad could stick around and more reliably win in a firefight between them and a Grey Hunter Squad. But why would they when the Space Marine player can take advantage of Combat Tactics, And They Shall Know No Fear, and a Heavy Weapon?

Pretty curious tactic you have there. One that I havent seen used at all. Normally, Codex marine users, they just sit on the objective, not 7" ahead of them. But then again falling back to an objective doesnt necessarily stop the GH from contesting the objectives you have fallen back into.

Combat squadding them into a 2-line unit is bad idea IMO. And this is because I assume the Sgt doesnt have a power weapon. ill just dog pile 10 bodies of GH with extra attack on your 5 man tacs. They will more likely to lose assault, and I would have denied your Plasma squads their targets.

But then again, let's not turn this into a GH versus Tac grudge match because both have different roles.

@ Grey Templar - Check the FAQ:
Q. The rules for both the relic blade and the
storm shield simply state that a model with one
of these pieces of wargear cannot have +1 Attack
for an additional close combat weapon. Is it
therefore possible to equip a model with both a
storm shield and a relic blade?
A. The rules for two-handed weapons in the
rulebook and the rules for storm shields and relic
blades are not in contradiction. So you can have
both a storm shield and a relic blade, which I
think makes for rather cool models!

I love seeing Marine Players complain about Rhinos, I wish I had a transport that cost 35pts. Sorry it cant have three sets of TL Lacannons. Everything is priced for a reason. Rhinos are like the casing for a liquid pill, they do their job of getting the medicine to the target area, whether they survive is secondary.

As for the original topic, Vanilla Marines are a great introductory army to 40K. Lot's of choices of units, good skills overall, great wargear. Hard to just cast it all off as crap. Every Vanilla Codex Marine Character outclass alot of other armies best overall character easily.

And Yes, I have a small force of Marines. They're going to be a display army more than a tourney army.