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TBD wrote:

Devilsquid wrote:Yeah, you lost me past the first sentence.

You get lost quite easily then.

Which also does nothing to advance the dialogue.

Devilsquid wrote:

So, to recap: Yes, crap was starting to get broken at the end of MKI. MKII has rebalanced the playing field, but there are still strong options out there you need to watch for. EDIT: Wrath and the new Hordes book will be the true test for 'power creep'. Since everything is being revamped this year, they're all at a near common baseline. With the new books coming out next year, that's when we're going to see how things shake out.

It will be interesting indeed. I don't think that it will reflect badly on PP if the new models aren't quite as balanced, but it will show whether a truely open playtest is necessary for a truely balanced game.

Anyway, back on topic I play both WM and 40K. Choice of game on a particular week at my local club depends on a number of things; How many models I want to field, whether I want to have one game (40K) or a couple (WM), if it's been a mentally taking week at work I might prefer 40K as WM is more of a mental workout. I also find 40K satisfies my creative juices a bit more, as I have my own chapter, characters etc- so I create my own background, but the flip side is that in WM you're more in an overarching storyline that PP provides for you.

At the end of the day, it's all swings and roundabouts. Variety is good though. Most of the people that burn out of the hobby do so because they only play one game and eventually get bored.

TBD wrote:

Devilsquid wrote:Yeah, you lost me past the first sentence.

You get lost quite easily then.

Neither of these comments really adds anything useful to the discussion. Let's keep it civil, folks.

40k player since codex Armageddon. Now a definite Privateer press convert.

Why? I was thoroughly impressed with the whole concept of going from Mk1 to Mk2 rules. Complete with active player participation to re-balance the game and bring about a new metagame more focused on the warjacks and warbeasts than the old almost all or all infantry armies.

I've won or lost games by a movement decision. 1/2" can make all the difference. You don't see this level of specificity in warhammer 40k.

And I find the 2d6 +stat vs def to be a much better and more averaged bell curve for statistical results.

so to sum it up, I think the game is more balanced, PP's attention to addressing rules concerns outstrips GW by a wide margin, and the models are very cool aesthetically. So I play that instead.

My 3500pt ork army is still up in the swap shop

NaZ

insaniak wrote:

TBD wrote:

Devilsquid wrote:Yeah, you lost me past the first sentence.

You get lost quite easily then.

Neither of these comments really adds anything useful to the discussion. Let's keep it civil, folks.

Beg to differ. DS was indicating that the initial post in question was not understandable. Which invites the poster to restate in order to have effective communication. Directly related to keeping the conversation on track and rolling.

grizgrin wrote:Beg to differ. DS was indicating that the initial post in question was not understandable.

That's not actually how it reads to me. Or to TBD, presumably.

So consider it a lesson in actually explaining what point you're trying to make, rather than leaving cryptic clues.

Yeah, ok. Sure thing.

Necros wrote:I have a question! I have the khador starter pack, the older metal one, 1 box of widowmakers and 1 full unit of winter guard. I've never, ever played with them. Is that a decent start to an army? What would be worth adding to get it up to a common points level and be a decent and fun army to play?

If I remember rightly, the old metal starter set was Kommander Sorscha, a Juggernaut Heaavy Warjack and a Destroyer Heavy Warjack - according to Forward Kommander (a free online tool for the construction of armies for WM/H), that would work out at an 11 point core of a list.

Adding your Winter Guard and Widowmakers takes you to 19 points, and gives you some reasonable ranged potential.

Please take any suggestions with a grain of salt, as I'm not a Khador player - however, if Devilsquire resurfaces, he may be able to give better advice.

If we aim for a 35 point list (one of the tournament standard sizes), and ignore theme forces entirely (which the Widowmakers mean we are, anyway), one solid way to go would be to build what is called the Winter Guard Death Star - add Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich (who buffs your Winter Guard), expand the WG unit to full, add their unit attachment, and three officers. This Death Star is very dangerous, though even more so with Epic Sorscha. Adding these would take you to 28 points, leaving you with 7 points to spare.

Your options are fairly open here - you could add some Mercs for different abilities that you wouldn't get within Khador, or increase your melee presence. I'm going to suggest expanding the army to do that, so I'd suggest adding a Manhunter solo, and the Great Bears of Gallowswood (a character melee unit). Other in-faction options would be a minimum unit of Iron Fang Uhlans (cavalry), a minimum unit of Kazayzy Assassins with Underboss or a unit of Doom Reavers with a War Dog bodyguard for Sorscha.

However, as I'm not a Khador player, I'm not sure what would be best for you.

Paging Kommander Devilsquid.....

Winterguard Deathstar with UA and Kovnik Joe is a great addition as Khador jacks, being slow, generally need some sort of screen to protect them from being charged by other heavies.

Drakhun is always a solid choice. He's about twice as fast as most Khador stuff and can bring some terrifying melee muscle to a fight for 5 points with 'two lives'.

The Winterguard Mortar + Sorscha's feat can get pretty disgusting. Hitting an immobilized target on a 4+ is buckets of fun with an AOE 4 POW 16. You can follow that up with the Destroyer's POW 14 for double the fun.

Beast-09 and Spriggan are jacks that work very well with Sorsha as she can give them +2" Mvt and Pathfinder. With Reach that puts their threat radius at 11" on the charge.

Iron Fang Pikemen + UA are an all-around resilient and effective melee screen that can hit quite hard in close combat.

That is a very decent starter army. Perhaps add the wardog of kovnik joe, but you should head to the warmachine section of the forums for this type of discussion.

Perkustin wrote:Basically i am fully aware of the short comings of Games workshop but i know nothing about the games produced by Privateer Press. Not really intersted in playing their games, because i don't like the art style/not entirely convinced by the setting, but some of the models are wonderful. I was just wondering what Fans have to say about Warmachine and Hordes etc. Are their games fun? Are the models too expensive? Are PP attentive to their fans? etc...

Hello,
I haven't played very often and it sounds like you see the game pretty much like I do. I don't like the background and the style isn't my cop of tea. Don't really find the miniatures very appealing but some are nice (I like the trolls personally). So I played a five times in the last couple of months and I had a good time with the game. I think the game is pretty fun and the people I played with were fun to be around and not just all out trying to wreck shop on me.
So in short I am planning on getting a small force and playing when I don't feel like playing GW games. It isn't horribly expensive and is worth trying if you ask me.

If I'm intersted in starting Hordes, but want to go all (or at least mostly) plastic, is there a faction that would fit the bill? Or do they all still have mostly metal models?

Btw I read the whole thread... thanks for the info on this game . There is an independent store near me where it's super popular (Dream Wizards) so I could actually get a game if I started it!

Would also be interested in hearing if there is a Warmachine all or mostly plastic faction, although Hordes catches my eye much more...

Edit: Well, from my own research all-or-mostly plastic doesn't seem possible. Those trollbloods do look sweet, though!

fire4effekt wrote:That is a very decent starter army. Perhaps add the wardog of kovnik joe, but you should head to the warmachine section of the forums for this type of discussion.

Sure is, or at least was in Mk. I when the game first came out, lol! I say that simply because that's the exact box I started out with, and had a hell of a lot of fun with. Back before Sorscha got "in LOS" added to her feat wording. Good times, good times. Since everyone seems to be saying Khador is still a very solid choice, I can only assume that this box still makes a great hard nucleus about which to form your Khador forces in time of war.

RiTides wrote:If I'm intersted in starting Hordes, but want to go all (or at least mostly) plastic, is there a faction that would fit the bill? Or do they all still have mostly metal models?

I really am not sure, but you may want to check out Retribution of Scyrah. Elves. Really wierd "jacks", they kinda have a Wraithlord/Wraithguard look to them, kinda; and I BELIEVE they are in plastic but not sure. Damn, I really didnt help you out at all there, did I? My bad.

RiTides wrote:
...Those trollbloods do look sweet, though!

Yeah they do, most of them. With some green stuff into the joints, like you have to do with just about any biological model as opposed to most robots and the like, they come out really sweet. My first comission work ever was with trollbloods. Client was irate that a previous vendor has jerked him around and turned in some shoddy work. Into the stripper and havin a go. Managed to get them painted up to table top quite fast, really were a dream to paint. I usually hate painting models of living things but these really went easy. Even got to paint my family tartan on them (after 6 generations in the US we're about as Irish as General Tso's Chicken, but client had no suggestions and left me to my own devices) which was kinda cool. Overall a very enjoyable painting experience. Painting my khador models has always been a similarly enjoyable experience. Part because of model quality (although I hear that took a dive later and that makes me very sad), part because the models I was painting weren't quite past my own personal Cartoony/Suspension of Disbelief threshold of comfort (Your Threshold WILL Vary, lol!), and part because they were such big clunky pieces of metal. A lot easier to hold steady with some heft to them. Kinda like target practice, using heavier pistols or match barrels.

Dysartes wrote:

Necros wrote:I have a question! I have the khador starter pack, the older metal one, 1 box of widowmakers and 1 full unit of winter guard. I've never, ever played with them. Is that a decent start to an army? What would be worth adding to get it up to a common points level and be a decent and fun army to play?

If I remember rightly, the old metal starter set was Kommander Sorscha, a Juggernaut Heaavy Warjack and a Destroyer Heavy Warjack - according to Forward Kommander (a free online tool for the construction of armies for WM/H), that would work out at an 11 point core of a list.

Adding your Winter Guard and Widowmakers takes you to 19 points, and gives you some reasonable ranged potential.
...

Again, I dunno about the current game, but Widowmakers used to really change the way your opponent focused on your army. If you ever wanted to run a distraction to keep your opponents attention off the important parts of your army, then Widowmakers were it. Eyriss was good for that too. Neither of which could ever really be ignored in favor of going after other targets, they ALWAYS felt they had to go for the Widowmakers or Eyriss. Only downside is they got used by a lot of players. If you liked playing a unique list (and I do), then these would possibly detract from that.

I really am not sure, but you may want to check out Retribution of Scyrah. Elves. Really wierd "jacks", they kinda have a Wraithlord/Wraithguard look to them, kinda; and I BELIEVE they are in plastic but not sure. Damn, I really didnt help you out at all there, did I? My bad.

Pretty much the only thing in Ret that's plastic is the heavy warjack kit, and literally every Warmachine faction has those (along with a plastic caster, if you buy the new starter boxes). The older factions also have plastic light kits, although it's not a multijack. Out of all the factions, Protectorate boasts the most plastic models, with the Exemplar Bastions and Cinerators being plastic.

If/when the Hordes factions get plastic starter boxes, Trollbloods will have the most plastic in Hordes, due purely to the fact that they have the Fennblades.

Again, I dunno about the current game, but Widowmakers used to really change the way your opponent focused on your army. If you ever wanted to run a distraction to keep your opponents attention off the important parts of your army, then Widowmakers were it. Eyriss was good for that too. Neither of which could ever really be ignored in favor of going after other targets, they ALWAYS felt they had to go for the Widowmakers or Eyriss. Only downside is they got used by a lot of players. If you liked playing a unique list (and I do), then these would possibly detract from that.

The change to how unit commanders work in Mk2 kinda nerfed Widowmakers a bit, but they're still a great way to pick off a reliable 4 infantry or solos a turn. Just don't expect them to cripple units the way they did in Mk. I.

Sure is, or at least was in Mk. I when the game first came out, lol! I say that simply because that's the exact box I started out with, and had a hell of a lot of fun with. Back before Sorscha got "in LOS" added to her feat wording. Good times, good times. Since everyone seems to be saying Khador is still a very solid choice, I can only assume that this box still makes a great hard nucleus about which to form your Khador forces in time of war.

As before, Sorscha got nerfed a bit (again ), with Wind Rush somewhat less effective than Mk I, and the ability of warjacks/casters to shake off Frozen and Knockdown making it more of an offensive ability than an "I win" button. Still, she's brutally effective, and the two jacks in the box are very solid choices.

Sorry for the absence, I normally check this from work during the week because it gets through the firewalls.

1) Yes, that's a good start to a Khador force. Add a few solos, another unit if you like, and you can make yourself a solid 20-25pt list to get your feet under you. If you don't like Scorcha, you can pick a caster that you do like and go with them instead.

2) There's a smattering of plastics out there, but nothing full line at the moment. Most of the WM heavy jacks are plastic, and the Trollbloods have the felblades, as well as the Bastions for protectorate. Actually, with the Bastions and Heavy Jacks, you can have a 'mostly' plastic Protectorate army.

3) Dreamwizards is an excellent shop. I swing by there whenever I get a chance to when I visit Maryland. Their stock was a bit low last I looked, but Thursdays has a good WM/H crowd.

4) I wasn't "lost" past the first sentence, i just chose to ignore the rest of the post due to the tone and language in it. My appologies for not adding anything constructive in my following post.



Will check in again tomorrow!

thanks I'll give that a shot. For me though I got into the game more for the jacks than for infantry. I have about 1000 different infantry models with GW stuff from the last 18 years. So I definitely would like a more jack heavy force. I liked the looks of the khador jacks the most. I like Beast 09 and was thinking of getting him. I have a full unit of winter guard (1 box and 2 blisters) but none of the add ons yet but I'll look into them

I really like the game but it's tough to find games. My group doesn't really want to get into it because like me they all have so much invested in GW stuff and so little time to focus on anything else. A couple of em got in FOW for a bit and recently sold pretty much all their models since they never got to play it. We only meet once a month and that's pretty much all for GW games.

RiTides wrote:. Those trollbloods do look sweet, though!

Irresistable if you ask me I was quite surprised with the Trollblood range, very solid and if you go for a non ranged weapon theme it really fits any Fantasy game you want to play with them.

Necros wrote:thanks I'll give that a shot. For me though I got into the game more for the jacks than for infantry. I have about 1000 different infantry models with GW stuff from the last 18 years. So I definitely would like a more jack heavy force. I liked the looks of the khador jacks the most. I like Beast 09 and was thinking of getting him. I have a full unit of winter guard (1 box and 2 blisters) but none of the add ons yet but I'll look into them

I really like the game but it's tough to find games. My group doesn't really want to get into it because like me they all have so much invested in GW stuff and so little time to focus on anything else. A couple of em got in FOW for a bit and recently sold pretty much all their models since they never got to play it. We only meet once a month and that's pretty much all for GW games.

Beast 09 is a nasty jack, especially with Scorcha. Butcher and Karchev are good jack casters as well, if you like either of them.

I hear you with the games. My LGS is mostly 40K players, though a few are interested in starting the game. I just sit and paint my models, slowly corrupting them to my dark ways.



MWAHAHAHAHA!

NAVARRO wrote:Irresistable if you ask me I was quite surprised with the Trollblood range, very solid and if you go for a non ranged weapon theme it really fits any Fantasy game you want to play with them.

You're right! I only just discovered them, and am pretty sure I'm going to spring for it... lovin' the trolls!

Thanks for the tips on what kits are plastic, guys

Devilsquid wrote:I just sit and paint my models, slowly corrupting them to my dark ways.

Das Devious Devilsquid.....

PP also has a one up with No Quarter.
More interesting than White Dwarf for me.

Just the fluff sections are a huge draw for me in No Quarter.
_____________

Trolls are a characterful bunch.
I esp. love Grim...there's a trick firing his gun .
Impalers and the Axer look cool...which makes the starter kit a great buy....Ranged Slamming and a thresher rusher!!!! And a Gerlick Slaughterborn Warlock....damn, I'm on Trollblood wishlist week.

I only played a couple games with the cygnar battle box, and I loved it. However my friend said "...*sigh* you went from playing space marines in 40k to playing space marines in war machine..." hahaha.

Me: "Yeah, these are Cygnar, the 'main' kingdom, and the most technologically advanced force out there..."
New Guy: "They're blue, so they're like Ultramarines, right?"
Me: ".....not quite."

Devilsquid wrote: But the counter for that in Warmachine is that it's 100% open knowledge. Just ask to see the card of whichever unit/model you have a question about, and all their rules are right there on hand.

As a relatively newbie Cryx player, I have to say I hear this from time to time and I think it's only partially true. Sure, everything is out in the open - but the danger doesn't come from one set of rules, but the synthesis of those rules across the entire army. That possibility space - all the possible interactions - is what's so daunting, and it's my prime de-motivator to play more often.

It seems like you really have to be passionate about all of the armies (WM & Hordes both) to be a semi-competitive player. Like Malifaux, it seems to be a demanding mistress, expecting alot of time spent on contemplation. That's not necessarily a bad thing, per se.

It's definitely got a bigger learning curve, especially because of the synergy between the models.

Personally, that's one of the things I like about it. There's a bit more depth to it than who's a better shooter or assaulter.

Devilsquid wrote:There's a bit more depth to it than who's a better shooter or assaulter.

Sure, I'm not trying to take away from that. I'm just pointing out that handing someone a card for a model they've never seen isn't an immediate reveal.

I got my butt handed to my from an Epic Stryker who jumped something like 15"+ across the table and smashed me dead. That's a case where I could have read the card and figured out what happened. But the combo chains like Moluk Tarn (sp?) aren't as easy to pickup until you get nailed by it at least once

Re: Getting stomped by a combo: Fool me once... shame on you. Fool me twice... shame on ME.

Over all.. Warmachine / Hordes is a much better game and system.

As for models.
I prefer GW.

Seems like alot of haters in this thread though...

GW Rules - bad, terribly written, so many loopholes and misworded rules.

PP Rules - Mean what they actually say.

I play both, both are fun, if i get tired of GW, i play the other. or a mix of both.

Both games can be "Boring as hell"

Play both, have fun. its a game.

Gonna be hitting my FLGS on friday to take advantage of the black friday sale if I can get there early enough

So, what's all in this Winter Guard Deathstar thing? I already have the 10 regular winter guard, so what else do I need? How many add ons can I add on and what's good? I was thinking about getting some rocketeer guys. But what about the field gun or mortar or standard bearer?

Just wanna know what I still have to buy. Also planning to pick up a Beast 09 if they have it and the MK2 rulebook. Already have the Khador book and the updated cards.

The Death Star is a full unit of 10 Winter Guard Infantry (not the Rifles), plus a trio of Rocketeers, the Standard Bearer & Officer, and Kovnik Josef Grigorivich.