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Darkwynn wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:I also just sent a letter. I know a handful of golden ticket winners (myself included) with no interest in going to this sham. What a let down.

Yep, I still have my ticket for sale if anyone wants one

Supply vs demand economics is going to put those things at less than a dollar pretty soon...

Considering how I don't really make it to big GT events, I was really looking forward to playing the best players in the country after I got my golden ticket. I am sad that this tournament may no longer give me this opportunity.

It sucks that the chances of figuring out who actually is the best (with this format) will have about as much success as getting justice out of a kangaroo court.

Ironic how many events more competitive than this one (if TOS can be said to be competitive at all) are to culminate in nothing more than a "group hugs and high fives" gathering. Maybe I will be named the best because of my "down low" high five skills? After all, GW might be "too slow" to come up with any better criteria.

Oh well, if I can afford it I hope to make waves in other bigger tournaments and see you guys around. I'll still be going to the LV TOS simply because I got some free hotel package for sitting through a silly time share presentation =).

If anyone does end up going, we should play for fun during the open gaming portion.

I hope people do vote with their feet. It's the only way these poxy events will disappear.

The thing is, if it disappears, it won't be replaced. They will take it as tournaments aren't worthwhile rather than 'we made a msitake as to the format of the tournament'.

skyth wrote:The thing is, if it disappears, it won't be replaced. They will take it as tournaments aren't worthwhile rather than 'we made a msitake as to the format of the tournament'.

so what you're saying is... it's better to have a bad tourny than no tourny at all?

I make no judgement as to which is better.

frgsinwntr wrote:

skyth wrote:The thing is, if it disappears, it won't be replaced. They will take it as tournaments aren't worthwhile rather than 'we made a msitake as to the format of the tournament'.

so what you're saying is... it's better to have a bad tourny than no tourny at all?

Some people obviously don't like the format, other people might. Who does and doesn't like it will be shown by the attendance. Poor attendance and it might get cancelled, good attendance and it will probably continue. But either way, keeping it doesn't hurt the people that don't want to attend, and cancelling it does hurt the players that do wish to attend.

Personal Opinion: My guess is that the UK wants the rest of the world to use the TOS format. Certainly the US is going to agree to that since Mr. Kirby is the current CEO of GW US. Given time, the UK model may change, or the US may use different rules from the UK. But right now that GW staff in the US don't have a lot of choice in the format. Send letters and express your views in a professional manner. Flames and rants won't change the minds of people, just burn them out and make them not want to host tournament.

Or try to do what we, a number of long term GT players, in the UK have done an organise an independent alternative that offers everything which was good about the old format, together with improvements gleaned from experience outside the GW circuit.

Granted I understand that the logistics of doing this in the US will be considerably harder than in the UK; larger geographical region and no dedicated gaming centres. But I am sure that if there is a will there is a way. aka enough of you get together then you could make it happen.

Oh we have excellent alternatives here in the US. We just wanted the culmination of the tournament circuit to be a competitive-ish event. Which this format isn't. But we've got the Nova Open, Adepticon, WargamesCon, and several others that have taken to a more competitive style and are selling out months in advance. Not to mention smaller events starting up like the Sprue Posse Grand Prix or Bolter Beach. We even have a large national invitational which the Nova Open is hosting

So to recap, it's not that we don't have better events. Just that we wanted a culminating event to be more than a hobby weekend. Hope that helps Skcuzzlebumm

YA, it's not about what's out there. The point is - many of the events on the circuit that yielded "finalists" were superior productions with a lot of time, energy and thought put into them.

Then GW releases the "Finals" format, and it's not only worse for hobbyists than most of what's out there, it's worse for competitors as well. It's basically a championship that is completely - on all fronts - inferior to the events that led up to it.

Plus - GW's response to complaint is basically "LOL WELL WE'RE STICKING WITH IT HURRR."


It's one big giant corporate Derp.

Sorry maybe I wasn't clear, I meant organise a player run event that is an end of season final/invitational/whatever equivalent to the Vegas GT, not just 'another' event

(i am aware the US is awash with tourneys).

Skcuzzlebumm wrote:Sorry maybe I wasn't clear, I meant organise a player run event that is an end of season final/invitational/whatever equivalent to the Vegas GT, not just 'another' event

(i am aware the US is awash with tourneys).

For 40k, Nova Open may just be pretty close to that. A good chunk of the guys winning tickets to TOS will probably be there. Probably a lot of the WFB tournament as well. They'll be mixed into a larger pool, but also have quite a few rounds to fight up to the top spots, which should easily sort people out.

MVB - That might be an interesting statistic to track. It would be fun to know what % of the possible TOS ticket holders attend the Nova.

Mike - I'll do that; in fact, I can probably cross ref w/ the pre-reg list already.

The Invitational also sort of has this component to it - and I have room to add more tournaments to the invite list.

1. Daniel Matulich
2. Mark Ferek
3. Andrew Sutton
4. Samuel Penson
5. Justin Hilderbrandt
6. Simon Leen
7. Alex Fennell
8. Chris Dubuque
9. Nick Nanavati
10. Mike Mutscheller
11. Brad Chester
12. Levi Joos

That encompasses NOVA, BFS, Mechanicon, DaBoyz, Sprue Posse, with 20 more spots to go that include BB2, WarGamesCon, Adepticon, and more who I've contacted. Could get the SVDM on the list, as well. This'll be book missions crossed with the NOVA format (rotating goals, w/l, yatta yatta), 5 rounds for $1,000 best general (solo 5-0), and 50/50 battle/appearance for $1,000 ren man. Happening Thurs/Fri before the NOVA Open GT.

The point is to do what GW is faltering with in terms of the Vegas Finals - by having a weak format, and by opening it to whoever wants to buy a ticket in 2012, they remove the incentive they gave the Indy guys as an advertising tool. Hoping the $2,000 in cash prize draw of the Invitational can help re-establish that "reason to go" to more than just one or your local GT's.

The Open itself as the 'big" event for us will - as you say - probably have all of those folks also playing in it, and anyone "missed" by the Invitational net.



Still, there's no ... legitimacy or formality to that. I make a point of not calling it a "championship" or anything, b/c we're not any kind of formal entity - none of us really are. That's the net bummer - we've got all these great events we're putting up and busting our butts with - you, me, everybody running the big circuit events. Yet, the final we're sending our people toward is ... crud. A few hours of JJ drivel I guess, backed up by the company line and no regard for honest self-assessment.

Well, the invite packages are supposed to arrive in January at some point. I am pretty sure that they do not include airfare, but I have heard of the possibility of rooms being provided.

If this is the case, I think it would be really great to make an alternate that weekend in Vegas anyway. Vegas is a great city to visit anyway, was going to make a vacation out of it anyway (plus airfare is so dirt cheap because it is comped by the casinos).

If rooms are covered then I might still attend. Airfare is generally only $200ish both ways because it's Vegas so that's not the concern. It was the combined costs that were turning me off. Other than the format that is. Also depends on if it interrupts any other well run events at the same time.

MVBrandt wrote:That encompasses NOVA, BFS, Mechanicon, DaBoyz, Sprue Posse, with 20 more spots to go that include BB2, WarGamesCon, Adepticon, and more who I've contacted. Could get the SVDM on the list, as well. This'll be book missions crossed with the NOVA format (rotating goals, w/l, yatta yatta), 5 rounds for $1,000 best general (solo 5-0), and 50/50 battle/appearance for $1,000 ren man. Happening Thurs/Fri before the NOVA Open GT.
The Open itself as the 'big" event for us will - as you say - probably have all of those folks also playing in it, and anyone "missed" by the Invitational net.

Love to add SVDM to that Mike. I'm sane and rested now, seems to take longer each year to get rid of jetlag after the xmas grind. Give me a yell sometime. Scooter will be up next weekend, I'll talk to him about what he needs help with for WFB at the Nova.

Its actually a really really good Tournament....

I went this past weekend, and had a great time, played against some really nice people.
There was a new feature that was quite cool, the judges were going around talking to people etc, and getting cool stories from the games, and putting up things like a single Space Marine captain killing most of a Grey Knight army up on a news board at the front. And then people were given awards for things like that.

It isn't an uber competitive win at all costs type of thing, which is good, its nice to have a big tournament that is like that.

It's not really a tournament is the point. It's a fun weekend event, and in that regard is perfectly successful. It's calling it a tournament and using the format for us national "championships" that people are getting worked up over.

rodgers37 wrote:Its actually a really really good Tournament....

I went this past weekend, and had a great time, played against some really nice people.
There was a new feature that was quite cool, the judges were going around talking to people etc, and getting cool stories from the games, and putting up things like a single Space Marine captain killing most of a Grey Knight army up on a news board at the front. And then people were given awards for things like that.

It isn't an uber competitive win at all costs type of thing, which is good, its nice to have a big tournament that is like that.

There are no WAAC tournaments, only WAAC players....

Besides this isn't a tournament, its a games day in disguise

So at Gamesday all you do is play tournament games?

rodgers37 wrote:So at Gamesday all you do is play tournament games?

How are these tournament games?

From The tourny email:
On to the Tournament itself! Below are just some of the exciting events and activities we have planned for you. See the attached document for extensive information about these events, the rules and more!

• A two day, 5 round, tournament on the Strip of Fabulous Las Vegas! Not really decisive on winner...

• Top notch terrain in the form of beautifully painted Realm of Battle Boards and Citadel Scenery ok

• A Team Challenge sub contest that gets you and others working collaboratively towards an exclusive prize gamesday esq...

• Scenario Gaming into the wee hours as we keep the gaming hall open until 2am on Friday and Saturday!gamesday esq...

• A Hero Painting Competition to see who has the best looking Army General gamesday esq...

• An all-materials-provided, Conversion Contest with prizes for the both the best built, and best painted creations gamesday esq...

• The return of the ever-popular Games Workshop Pub Quiz with drink specials ongoing gamesday esq...

• An opportunity to meet and challenge the best Games Workshop players in North America! ok

• Extensive online and printed coverage of the event, the great looking armies, and all the winners ok

Hope that answers your passive aggressive question

frgsinwntr wrote:

rodgers37 wrote:So at Gamesday all you do is play tournament games?

How are these tournament games?

From The tourny email:
On to the Tournament itself! Below are just some of the exciting events and activities we have planned for you. See the attached document for extensive information about these events, the rules and more!

• A two day, 5 round, tournament on the Strip of Fabulous Las Vegas! Not really decisive on winner...

• Top notch terrain in the form of beautifully painted Realm of Battle Boards and Citadel Scenery ok

• A Team Challenge sub contest that gets you and others working collaboratively towards an exclusive prize gamesday esq...

• Scenario Gaming into the wee hours as we keep the gaming hall open until 2am on Friday and Saturday!gamesday esq...

• A Hero Painting Competition to see who has the best looking Army General gamesday esq...

• An all-materials-provided, Conversion Contest with prizes for the both the best built, and best painted creations gamesday esq...

• The return of the ever-popular Games Workshop Pub Quiz with drink specials ongoing gamesday esq...

• An opportunity to meet and challenge the best Games Workshop players in North America! ok

• Extensive online and printed coverage of the event, the great looking armies, and all the winners ok

Hope that answers your passive aggressive question

I haven't gotten my info yet, so I'll wait for a final decision until I do, but given the above, I probably won't go. The tournament itself from all information on the format is not going to actually find a winner, due to weird algorithms of your record as a function of how well other people with your codex did (how this finds the winner, is beyond me).

What that info doesn't contain:

1) Any details on the tournament format, it's 1 line in an email...and its supposed to be the point of the entire thing
2) Any details on prize support. No offense, but if I'm shelling out 300 for a flight (if you get it cheap) + 2 nights at 55 dollars and 2 nights at 90 (another 300 dollars), the support, format, etc. all better be pretty awesome.

It just seems incredibly half-a'd from what we've heard so far, but, I'll with-hold final judgement until I get the packet details.

Well... no Ed has put a TON of work into this and offers a TON of prize support to all the events on the circuit. If anything he is to be commended for the amazing job he's done. In fact I think we all owe him a beer!

but we can still constructively criticize this event for not being a "culminating tourny"

In fact... here are the things I think are absolutley amazing:
1) we have an event at the end of the circuit to culminate it!
2) prize support for indy events are great
3) Ed is a great guy who even responded to my emailed concerns about the event.

here is what needs to change,
1) the way you determine the winnner.

If this is done it would be the pinnacle of GW events. it would have EVERYTHING. stuff for hobbyists (the gamesday esq stuff above...)and stuff for competitive folks a tourny with a determinate winner.

Why not have a second side tourny a GT for the circuit winners on the side....? I felt this was what was missing from the original gamesdays/GW gts... they should have been done at the same time and place.

frgsinwntr wrote:Well... no Ed has put a TON of work into this and offers a TON of prize support to all the events on the circuit. If anything he is to be commended for the amazing job he's done. In fact I think we all owe him a beer!

but we can still constructively criticize this event for not being a "culminating tourny"

Who is Ed? Some of my prizes came from him then?

He is to be commended if thats the case

If you don't like it, don't go....
I just remembered this thread, and after going Really really enjoyed the weekend, was really fun.

targetawg wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Well... no Ed has put a TON of work into this and offers a TON of prize support to all the events on the circuit. If anything he is to be commended for the amazing job he's done. In fact I think we all owe him a beer!

but we can still constructively criticize this event for not being a "culminating tourny"

Who is Ed? Some of my prizes came from him then?

He is to be commended if thats the case

Ed's a Fantastic guy. AND yes he should get a big thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rodgers37 wrote:If you don't like it, don't go....
I just remembered this thread, and after going Really really enjoyed the weekend, was really fun.

if you don't like this thread, don't post.

Yeah, Ed is to be majorly commended for the work he's put into the circuit as a whole. He did an amazing job keeping up with it this year in a not so easy year. He took the time to respond to me as well personally when I gave my opinion of the format for choosing a winner and answered some of my other questions. Heck, Ed was one of the few good people's in upper management that I remember from my time with GW. He's made sure there is enourmous support for all the events on the circuit. So by no means should any of the very small (but in effect major) issues we have with the format reflect poorly on him.

If they changed how the winner was selected I'd attend in a heartbeat. As it is I'll have to decide but it doesn't look good as I now live in the Midwest (or will officially in the beginning of February) and the cost of attending events means it might not happen. But then again maybe there will be a cheap flight weekend to get out there to hang with some gaming friends from Cali. We'll see.

Hulksmash wrote:Yeah, Ed is to be majorly commended for the work he's put into the circuit as a whole. He did an amazing job keeping up with it this year in a not so easy year. He took the time to respond to me as well personally when I gave my opinion of the format for choosing a winner and answered some of my other questions. Heck, Ed was one of the few good people's in upper management that I remember from my time with GW. He's made sure there is enourmous support for all the events on the circuit. So by no means should any of the very small (but in effect major) issues we have with the format reflect poorly on him.

If they changed how the winner was selected I'd attend in a heartbeat. As it is I'll have to decide but it doesn't look good as I now live in the Midwest (or will officially in the beginning of February) and the cost of attending events means it might not happen. But then again maybe there will be a cheap flight weekend to get out there to hang with some gaming friends from Cali. We'll see.

Do you think they'd let the Circuit winners run a side tourny? or not so much?

I blame too many Geometry courses, but sometimes I get really amused by the arguements over words, and no definitions to go with them. )

You need a definition of tournament before you can say something isn't one. (Hell, I'm still waiting for the definition and rules for using RAW.)

Ask me about NOVA 10 years ago, and I would have scratched my head and said "Of course it's not a tournament! There's no horses, and no one is running around in plate armor and hitting each other". http://www.housebloodguard.org/heavy-fighting Ask me 35 years ago and I've have been asking about weight divisions. Hmmm, can we do a 40k event where we group people by poundage? I bet the heavyweight division would be huge.)

Do some people not consider it a tournament? Sure, that's obvious. Other people do think it's a tournament. It's got wargaming a scoring system. Added bonus of Vegas and beer. I'm ok with calling it a tournament. You're going to have as many opionions on what is a tournament and what makes a good tournament as you have individual gamers.

Oh it's a tournament. Just not one in which I like the way the winner is determined. MVB had an excellent post in the other thread about it. It just might not be worth the cost of the trip with the rules the way they currently are. I'll wait for my packet to decide.