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sourclams wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:quick comparative sketch I did for an 8' marine
can do one for a 10' marine bt rather tired so apologies
will have a go tomorrow

Not sure how much to bulk out the chest
Am of the opinion that the head size would not alter.
just my take on that issue

To give some idea if you add on another 2' (ie the difference between the two figures) it would be 10'

This seems both the most reasonable and the best representation of fluff descriptions that I have read...if not a little too big (at 8' w/o armor).

Yes, I believe SM are 8 feet tall WITHOUT equipment. Obviously PA can make them even larger.

The guys in my sketchette don't have equipment
not sure how it would make them larger!?

Not sure how? Like how wearing skates adds 3 inches to your height.

Space Marines don't wear skates though.

I'd think their boots etc give them 2-3" and maybe another 4-5" between the top of their head and the top of their helmet (including vent). Most helmets have a reasonable amount of space above the head for shock absorption reasons and a marine helmet also has to cram in electronics and so forth.


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I think between 7 and 8.5' is reasonable for the average marine, taller for captains and notable others like Sergeant Pausanias of the Ultramarines.


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Much of their size difference comes from their increased muscle mass and the width of their bodies, so even a midget marine of 6.5' would appear intimidating to a regular human who was taller because of that extra width and muscle.

cadbren wrote:Space Marines don't wear skates though.

I'd think their boots etc give them 2-3" and maybe another 4-5" between the top of their head and the top of their helmet (including vent). Most helmets have a reasonable amount of space above the head for shock absorption reasons and a marine helmet also has to cram in electronics and so forth.


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I think between 7 and 8.5' is reasonable for the average marine, taller for captains and notable others like Sergeant Pausanias of the Ultramarines.

yes, exactly. My point is just like a person's skates make then appear taller a Marines boots make him taller.

What about their shoe size? Plus we all know what that indicates! I know it never gets mentioned but there is never a mention of Marines being castrated during the Gene seed implants so what the hell happens down there? Plus could any woman actually take the physicality of a astartes or do the Marines help a brother out?

11ft with armor on, surely.

I think you'd revise your estimate if you had to stand next to an 11' d00d with the physical dimensions of a Space Marine. Marines in armor are often described as head-and-shoulders above normal 6' humans... in other words reasonably tall people typically find themselves at eye level with their chest Aquila/breastbone.

At 11' in armor, normal humans would be at eye level with their crotch. We would literally be like 6 year old children next to grown ups. A Space Marine standing out on the street would be able to reach up and tap on the window of a second story office building. Individual Marines of those dimensions would weigh 600 lbs or more in their underwear. I'd say this is possible for certain Primarchs, but not for standard Astartes.

So you'd reckon closer to nine in armor?

Why does it matter what they'd weigh?

Are we still arguing about this? Doesn't fluff canon say that they're 3 meters tall?

Is that in or out of armor? If out, then 10 1/2 to 11 might not be unreasonable.

I'd figure that those boots added to a helmet on a guy that was already 9 feet tall would put him up over ten.

The impression I get from fluff/canon is that the 3 meters is *in armor*, and the range is more like an upper bound of 3 meters, rounded up from 2 with a high decimal.

That puts unarmored SMs firmly within the 8-9 range. Still huge, but not eye-to-crotch.

feth me running.

Are we talking about in armor or out?

And Primarchs are . . . sometimes/always larger? Fifteen footers, decked out?

I know that they are described as towering over the other Astartes.

Angron and Leman Russ in particular.

And Magnus is actually referred to as a giant from Astartes perspective. If they're about ten in armor, the Primarchs must be at least half their height again.

Monster Rain wrote:Why does it matter what they'd weigh?

Are we still arguing about this? Doesn't fluff canon say that they're 3 meters tall?

No! It says they are 2.5 metres tall.


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sourclams wrote:The impression I get from fluff/canon is that the 3 meters is *in armor*, and the range is more like an upper bound of 3 meters, rounded up from 2 with a high decimal.

That puts unarmored SMs firmly within the 8-9 range. Still huge, but not eye-to-crotch.

yes, this!

Maurin wrote:I was reading the Chaos Space Marine codex last night. It says very clearly that space marines are around 7'.

It does indeed. And since codex fluff usually trumps BL fluff, we might have a definite answer here.

Monster Rain wrote:Where did that "three meters" idea come from? It's firmly implanted in my brain, but I have no idea where I got it from.

SmackCakes wrote:Where did this idea that marines are 9-10 feet tall originate from? I always considered marines to be tall but within a normal human range I.E. 6'4"

The Soul Drinkers novels describe Astartes as standing three metres tall, that might be where. There could well be other sources that say 3m, but that's the only one I've found so far.

SmackCakes wrote:I have the first Angels of Death Codex which contains a story about a Blood Angels Assault Squad lead by a Captain, who are summoned to help some Iron Guard storm a fortification (Awesome story). The Captain is described as 'towering' and explicitly stated as being "seven foot tall".

Codex: Angels of Death is fairly outdated now, and newer fluff often takes precedence over older material when they contradict. Also, this is the story on page 22, correct? 'cause I don't believe the Astartes in that story is actually described as "towering" (although he is described as taller than the Guardsmen and being seven foot tall), nor is he identified as a Captain.

SmackCakes wrote:Marines can breath water thanks to their 'multi lung' organ implant.

Yes, I already addressed that.

Æscholt wrote:While there is some background stating that the multi-lung allows Astartes to breathe underwater, the Iron Snakes held their breath. This may be due to any number of reasons, perhaps a gene-seed defect means that the multi-lung isn't as efficient as in other chapters. Perhaps the nature of the trial, which is a personal test of sorts, forbids Marines from taking the 'easy way out'. Or perhaps Abnett just made a mistake, it'd certainly not be the first time he's done so.

sourclams wrote:Individual Marines of those dimensions would weigh 600 lbs or more in their underwear.

Deathwatch's Marines, who it claims are barely 7′ tall, are described as weighing 700 - 1500 lbs. I think it's a daft figure, but they are heavy buggers. Probably due to having an ultra-dense, ceramic plated skeleton and whatnot.

Monster Rain wrote:Are we still arguing about this? Doesn't fluff canon say that they're 3 meters tall?

No. 'Fluff canon' is a slippery thing, and fully armoured Marines have been described as anywhere from 6′11″ to 9′10″ (2.1m to 3m) tall at times.

Here's a summary of the various 'canon' heights Marines have been given from time to time. If anyone has an example I've missed, then please don't hesitate to mention it.
    • Deathwatch says that "whilst wearing their power armour, an unarmed Space Marine typically stands slightly over 2.1 metres tall".
    • The current Codex: Chaos Space Marines says Marines "stand seven feet tall".
    • 2nd edition's Codex: Angels of Death describes a Marine as "seven foot tall".
    • Jes Goodwin has said that Marines are "seven to seven foot six", and his "life size" drawing of an armour Space Marine was 7′ tall.
    • James Swallow's Blood Angels series features Marines who stand "well over two metres" tall.
    • Dan Abnett's books usually place a Marine as being about a metre taller than a human, and in Horus Rising describes Loken as being "a giant, two and a half metres tall".
    • Anthony Reynolds's Word Bearers are shorter than three metres, with an "almost three metres" tall staff being "taller even than" the Marine carrying it, and a three metre tall Ogryn "dwarfed even the Terminators".
    • And lastly, Ben Counter describes Marines as being "three metres tall" in his Soul Drinkers novels.

Æscholt wrote:

SmackCakes wrote:I have the first Angels of Death Codex which contains a story about a Blood Angels Assault Squad lead by a Captain, who are summoned to help some Iron Guard storm a fortification (Awesome story). The Captain is described as 'towering' and explicitly stated as being "seven foot tall".

Codex: Angels of Death is fairly outdated now, and newer fluff often takes precedence over older material when they contradict. Also, this is the story on page 22, correct? 'cause I don't believe the Astartes in that story is actually described as "towering" (although he is described as taller than the Guardsmen and being seven foot tall), nor is he identified as a Captain.

Yes it is the story on page 22. And you are right that he is not described as 'towering' (I must have remembered it wrong) but he is described as being 7 foot tall, and identified as a Captain on at least 5 occasions, including the first paragraph. Being a Captain doesn't necessarily mean he is tall for a marine, but I think it does imply that he is at least average hight.

I'm not sure I agree 100% that new fluff always takes precedence over older fluff, I think it is all worth considering to paint a picture of what is going on, and there is merit in preserving original fluff and protecting old ideas from being warped and fan wanked all over by new writers.

In cases where the story has developed, such as Tycho dying, I would agree that new fluff wins. But where there is no expansion and we just have different accounts, I would argue that new and old are equally valuable.

Monster Rain wrote:Are we still arguing about this? Doesn't fluff canon say that they're 3 meters tall?

No. 'Fluff canon' is a slippery thing, and fully armoured Marines have been described as anywhere from 6′11″ to 9′10″ (2.1m to 3m) tall at times.

Here's a summary of the various 'canon' heights Marines have been given from time to time. If anyone has an example I've missed, then please don't hesitate to mention it.
    • Deathwatch says that "whilst wearing their power armour, an unarmed Space Marine typically stands slightly over 2.1 metres tall".
    • The current Codex: Chaos Space Marines says Marines "stand seven feet tall".
    • 2nd edition's Codex: Angels of Death describes a Marine as "seven foot tall".
    • Jes Goodwin has said that Marines are "seven to seven foot six", and his "life size" drawing of an armour Space Marine was 7′ tall.
    • James Swallow's Blood Angels series features Marines who stand "well over two metres" tall.
    • Dan Abnett's books usually place a Marine as being about a metre taller than a human, and in Horus Rising describes Loken as being "a giant, two and a half metres tall".
    • Anthony Reynolds's Word Bearers are shorter than three metres, with an "almost three metres" tall staff being "taller even than" the Marine carrying it, and a three metre tall Ogryn "dwarfed even the Terminators".
    • And lastly, Ben Counter describes Marines as being "three metres tall" in his Soul Drinkers novels.

It seems like 7 to 8 feet is the average here.

Ben Counter is the odd one out with 3 meters, which is a relief since 3 meters is seriously messed up.

Maurin wrote:I was reading the Chaos Space Marine codex last night. It says very clearly that space marines are around 7'.

But that's just the CSM Codex, I mean, for all we know, they defected to Chaos because they were sick of getting wedgies by the normal sized SM due to being the shortest in the Astartes.

Also, is that 'very clearly' in armor or out of it? Plus armor, I'd picture at least a couple feet added on top of that. I mean, this is armor that leaves them almost invincible, right? It would have to be thick, and you'd want at least the same amount of armor on your boots as you would have on your chest just so that you didn't explode the first time you stepped on a mine.

Æscholt wrote:

sourclams wrote:Individual Marines of those dimensions would weigh 600 lbs or more in their underwear.

Deathwatch's Marines, who it claims are barely 7′ tall, are described as weighing 700 - 1500 lbs. I think it's a daft figure, but they are heavy buggers. Probably due to having an ultra-dense, ceramic plated skeleton .

I got the impression that was in armor. There's simply no way that human dimensions, even at 2.5m tall un-armored, could approach 1500 lbs. That would put them closer to the specific gravity of iron than a carbon-based lifeform.

Ya, that seems a little ridiculus. I could see 700lbs though...

I think seven foot something out of armor with eight something in. Also yesterday I was looking through the 3.5 Chaos Codex and it was describing the Daemonic Stature (Makes the Character a Monstrous Creature) trait as making the character ten feet or taller. So I doubt Marines are ten feet tall out of armor.

Doesn't one of the HH Books detail "Little Horus" the captain of one of the companies as being a short arse (don't quote me for some reason i think his name began with a T?? Please correct me).

Edit : Was it something XXXXX Aximand?

Regarding weight... I made this comparison of Robert Wadlow standing next to a 9 foot tall Steve Austin.



As you can see Robet Wadlow looks like he weighs about about 130 pounds tops. Steve Austin weights in at around 250.

However standing 8'11" tall Robert Walow was in fact 490 pounds (according to wiki). That would make 9 foot Steve Austin very close to 1000 pounds.

Steve Austin is actually 6'2". If a space marine were 6'2" I'm betting he would probably be heavier given that he has denser muscles and bones etc... So 1000+ lbs might not be unrealistic. Though again I would say that someone that tall and heavy might have trouble standing and walking which is unrealistic for marines.

mwnciboo wrote:Doesn't one of the HH Books detail "Little Horus" the captain of one of the companies as being a short arse (don't quote me for some reason i think his name began with a T?? Please correct me).

Edit : Was it something XXXXX Aximand?

...."Horus". Hence the name: Horus.

Anyways, I think a lot of Chaos Marines may actually be smaller than their "modern" Loyalist brothers. In the Pre-Heresy Days the Legions stressed quantity of quality letting any joe blow become a space marine (even converted some in adulthood). Nowadays they try t recruit the most impressive dozen individuals on a whole planet.

SmackCakes wrote:Yes it is the story on page 22. And you are right that he is not described as 'towering' (I must have remembered it wrong) but he is described as being 7 foot tall, and identified as a Captain on at least 5 occasions, including the first paragraph.

Fair enough on the captain thing, that's me failing at reading properly. Expected 'captain' to have a capital and all that. My bad.

SmackCakes wrote:I'm not sure I agree 100% that new fluff always takes precedence over older fluff, I think it is all worth considering to paint a picture of what is going on, and there is merit in preserving original fluff and protecting old ideas from being warped and fan wanked all over by new writers.
In cases where the story has developed, such as Tycho dying, I would agree that new fluff wins. But where there is no expansion and we just have different accounts, I would argue that new and old are equally valuable.

While older fluff is certainly vital to a proper understanding of the 40K universe, it's useful to have some way to sort out conflicts. And if an older book says one thing but new books says another, it's all too easy to see it as a retcon. A 15 year old Codex is still a valid source, I don't feel it's quite as valid as some of the others.

daedalus wrote:

Maurin wrote:I was reading the Chaos Space Marine codex last night. It says very clearly that space marines are around 7'.

But that's just the CSM Codex, I mean, for all we know, they defected to Chaos because they were sick of getting wedgies by the normal sized SM due to being the shortest in the Astartes.

The passage reads "The Space Marines were created as the Emperor's ultimate fighting force. Implanted with the gene-seed of the Primarchs, Space Marines are giant warriors that stand seven feet tall [...]". The next paragraph then goes on to state that "the Chaos Space Marines have all of these strengths and skills, to which are added the power of Chaos", so the "seven feet tall" bit is clearly referring to loyalist Astartes.

daedalus wrote:Also, is that 'very clearly' in armor or out of it? Plus armor, I'd picture at least a couple feet added on top of that. I mean, this is armor that leaves them almost invincible, right? It would have to be thick, and you'd want at least the same amount of armor on your boots as you would have on your chest just so that you didn't explode the first time you stepped on a mine.

Look at a Space Marine model. If the soles of their boots are a foot thick, then they should be way, way taller than 7′. And if their helmet is more than a couple of inches thick, then they're more pinheaded than the even more disproportionate artwork portrays them as.

sourclams wrote:

Æscholt wrote:Deathwatch's Marines, who it claims are barely 7′ tall, are described as weighing 700 - 1500 lbs. I think it's a daft figure, but they are heavy buggers. Probably due to having an ultra-dense, ceramic plated skeleton .

I got the impression that was in armor. There's simply no way that human dimensions, even at 2.5m tall un-armored, could approach 1500 lbs. That would put them closer to the specific gravity of iron than a carbon-based lifeform.

No such luck. Deathwatch claims that a power armoured Astartes weighs "500-1,000kg" and Astartes Power Armour is listed as weighing 180kg. So a Marine without his armour must weigh 320 - 720kg, or roughly 700 - 1500 lbs.

mwnciboo wrote:Doesn't one of the HH Books detail "Little Horus" the captain of one of the companies as being a short arse (don't quote me for some reason i think his name began with a T?? Please correct me).
Edit : Was it something XXXXX Aximand?

Horus "Little Horus" Aximand was the shortest of the Mournival, yes. But I'm not sure they ever gave us his actual height.

e:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anyways, I think a lot of Chaos Marines may actually be smaller than their "modern" Loyalist brothers. In the Pre-Heresy Days the Legions stressed quantity of quality letting any joe blow become a space marine (even converted some in adulthood). Nowadays they try t recruit the most impressive dozen individuals on a whole planet.

On the other hand, I would suggest that Chaos Marines would be taller than the current crop of Loyalists. Chaos 'gifts' the traitors might have received notwithstanding, the gene-seed Loyalists use has had 10 000 years to degrade. Think of the Blood Angels, they use a tiny amount of their Primarch's blood to make new Marines. Which is "stored" inside Sanguinary Priests, and realistically, only the most minute fraction of the Primarch's blood could have survived the past 10 000 years, changing hands as new Priests are initiated with blood taken from the old, again and again throughout the centuries.

Aren't orks traditionally 'larger' than a man... and SM in armour are a whole head taller than AoBR orcs no? So if Orks are bigger (say at least 8ft) SM must be at least 9'6" - probably more, to be that significantly larger than the orks.

Orks are all hunched over. If they stood up properly and quit slouching they "should" be at least as tall as a Marine.