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Aretak wrote:At 8ft with such wide chests and bulky muscles they'd be very stout and squat. This is a typical physical description of the smaller marines in the novels i've read. That is why they're not 8ft but rather taller then 8ft. More like 10ft

I'm not sure I follow your logic here. It seems like you're going;
    • 8′ tall Marines would be stout and squat
    • Some Marines are described as being stout and squat.
         • Thus, Marines are much taller than 8′.
Which doesn't follow. Surely the presence of "stout and squat" Marines would imply that those "smaller marines" would be in the 8′ range, and I can't see Marines who are 2′ below the average being that common. And we'd have the other extreme, 12′ tall Marines, running around as well, which I don't think is supported anywhere.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:This is the problem of drawing the SM's
The proportions in the Jes Goodwin pic proportion looks wrong to me
okay I am gonna get a lot of flak for that but it doesn't look like it considers the human frame within the PA.

Ah, but there's the rub. There is no "human frame" within Power Armour, because Space Marines aren't human. They're genetically and surgically altered humans, 'posthumans' of a sort, who were designed and manufactured to wage war. With a score of cultured organs implanted into their bodies, and near constant chemical treatments over four or more years; with organs that cause the subject's skeleton to grow, thicken, and in places fuse together, it's no wonder that the Astartes aren't just scaled up humans.

Mattieau wrote:They don't need to hold their breath, they can just activate their multi-lung.

While there is some background stating that the multi-lung allows Astartes to breathe underwater, the Iron Snakes held their breath. This may be due to any number of reasons, perhaps a gene-seed defect means that the multi-lung isn't as efficient as in other chapters. Perhaps the nature of the trial, which is a personal test of sorts, forbids Marines from taking the 'easy way out'. Or perhaps Abnett just made a mistake, it'd certainly not be the first time he's done so.

Mattieau wrote:On topic though: http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/Vespa7/DSC00279.jpg there's a picture of me standing with a space marine replica in real life. To be fair that's probably not exactly right but looks to be close enough. I'm about five foot five. Or 163 cm. That space marine looks a good foot or so taller than me, and he's not standing up straight. That'd lead me to believe they're about 8 feet tall.

Assuming that's one of the statues commissioned for the release of DoW II, that replica is 2.15m tall, which is just a hair over 7′. That's including the base, but as you said it's not standing perfectly upright, so I reckon the Marine is scaled to be about 7-7′6″ tall.

Compel wrote:At a Games Day UK 2009 display, in an art section (possibly a Jes Goodwin tribute) there was a large 'mat' that was a space marine height chart which came to him being 8 feet tall in armour.
Sadly, it didn't occur to me to take a picture.

Are you sure that wasn't the Goodwin sketch I linked to earlier? It's worth noting that although the Marine's head is touching the 8′ line, Jes accidentally started the scale at 1′, so the Marine is actually only 7′ tall.

No the rub is the fact that the form inside the PA still has to function.
The drawing I referred to would not allow that imho
Even allowing for the modifications.
Look at the stance of that marine. Try walking around like with your legs outside of your shoulders. The hips are totally inadequate

I'm fairly sure that GW have categorically stated that SM height is anywhere between 7ft 6 and 8ft something without power armour. It's referenced plenty of times in BL books, and it may even be in the actual codex. Heights of 10ft seem too big, even for a genetically enhanced superhuman. I mean, seriously, 8ft is already pretty terrifying. Hell, 7ft is terrifying. I don't think there's any real advantage gained by having your super-soldiers almost as big as buses.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:quick comparative sketch I did for an 8' marine
can do one for a 10' marine bt rather tired so apologies
will have a go tomorrow

Not sure how much to bulk out the chest
Am of the opinion that the head size would not alter.
just my take on that issue

To give some idea if you add on another 2' (ie the difference between the two figures) it would be 10'

This seems both the most reasonable and the best representation of fluff descriptions that I have read...if not a little too big (at 8' w/o armor).

Marines are 7' tall, 8' tall in power armour.

Kilkrazy wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:My Cognitive Science prof hypothesized that as we learn our brains grow, and if that was so then why dont we have huge heads? He put forward the idea that at a young age, we learn a lot, how to walk, how to talk, so our heads our quite large (they were large to begin with but the brain was a clean slate) due to the vast amount of information needed.

Now looking at all the SM's learn, through hypnosis and all that jazz, rituals (armour cleaning, gun shooting), and not to mention all the things techmarines have to learn within 30 years, though the implants would help. I'd say there is much they have to learn = bigger brain = bigger head

And taking into account all the enhanced senses as you pointed out (I had almost forgotten about them ), the brain would require more processing power to deal with all the extra stiumlus. So a bigger head indeed

There's no medical evidence that intelligence is related to brain size, or that brains grow larger as people learn things. There is evidence that more connections are built up within the brain as people learn things, and this is related to development of intelligence.

The reason why babies have large heads is that they have large brains.

SMs' brains would not grow larger, but their skulls would grow thicker, so their head would be larger than a normal man but it would be a distorted mass of bone and might look quite weird.

The other thing that does grow with age is the cartilage that forms the external ears (the pinnae). Since SMs live a long time, the older ones among them will have very large ears. This is possibly the reason why sergeants and officers do not usually wear helmets.

I agree that intelligence is not related to brain size. Perhaps I worded that incorrectly. I meant with regards to all the new implants, both sensory organs and the other bits. I person would need more connections to interepret all the new stimulus and would there for need a greater processing power to deal with all the cognitive processing. There are only so many connections in the brain, mind you there are over 100 billion nerve/brain cells in the brain, these billion cells are enough for us to deal with all our systems, as imperfect as it is. Now add in the Lyman's ear, the occulobe, the multilung, the ability to go comatose, and the host of organs that marines are implanted with, that's a lot more things that the brain has to deal with. couple that with a marine's keen intellect and great memory, I don't think that a regular brain could handle that.

Of course there could be a way in the future where the connections are more complex and efficient, but comparing it to modern man, our 100 billion cells may work fine for us, but for a space marine, I don't think it would be enough. More connections, more space for connections, bigger brain. Intelligence is just a side affect.

And buddha ears? forgot about that!

Kilkrazy wrote:

Delephont wrote:

Æscholt wrote:

Delephont wrote:I'm just reading the First heretic, and its funny, because this size thing has come up in the story as well.

Interestingly, regardig the Emperor himself, considering this particular discord comes from the same author, within two pages of each other, where in one paragraph he states the Emp is "just a man"...suggesting man sized! in relation to his Custodes, and in the next the Emp is described as a giant.

The Emperor is a special case. While Lorgar does look at the Emperor and see "just a man", it also says that his appearance "depended entirely on which facet of his face one focussed on". Lorgar looks at the Emperor and sees, among other things, his father. Meanwhile, Argel Tal looks upon the Emperor and sees his God, "a towering figure deep in a corona of agonising white light". The two descriptions are not contradictory when one considers influences his psychic abilities might have. Lorgar also doesn't see the light that blinds his Legion, and hears the Emperor speaking in a quiet voice, not the psychic roar that would bring line Astartes to their knees.
Also, I'm not sure that "just a man" really implies that he was man sized. The size of the Custodes isn't commented on in that paragraph, and "just a man" could mean that the Emperor lacks the genetic enhancements of the Primarchs or the Custodes. While a monstrously powerful psychic, the Emperor is still human.

Fair point, I can see what the writer is trying to do.

Moving away from the book, I guess, I look at it from a wider view. Here we have a company that has invested much into creating its own universe, and yet goes to great length to contradict itself in almost every medium it choese to represent its universe in. Just seems silly to me.

The other point is the Primarchs, if an average human comes up to a Primarchs waiste, then roughly, if an average human is 5'8" then a Primarch would be just over 11ft tall, or there abouts.....thats ridiculous then if a Marine is 10ft tall, as that would mean a Primarch is merely 1ft taller than his sons.....

Still, I'm not sure why I'm so surprised it doesn't add up

There are other ways to look at these points.

The Emporer's Size
If he was inhumanly tall, like much over six feet, he would have stood out like a sore thumb on historical Earth.

The Primarchs's Height
If they were over 11 feet, I don't see why it is a problem for SMs to be a foot smaller. I would be surprised if they were only 2/3rds to 3/4 the size.

The Purity of the Canon
GW didn't carefully craft and maintain their universe. It has always been cobbled together from all sorts of stuff ripped from elsewhere. Of course there has been some editorial guidance, particularly around SMs, but the standards pare pretty lax, allowing writers to come up with a lot of their own stuff.

In response to the emporer's size:
In the novel Tales of Heresy, the story, the Last Church, the emporer vists an old pastor and they have a conversation about religion. The pastor sees just a regular warrior, with something special about his eyes. Only after the emperor reveals himself does the pastor see the glorious towering figure before him. Being a powerful psyker, could the emperor not hid his precense among mortals like us?

It must have been a pain for him to endure 28,000 years of bending in half at the waist to fit into normal sized buildings so that no-one would notice him being 11 feet tall.

Truly I appreciate his greatness more than ever.

I believe 8 is the most common height IIRC.

Maybe he makes use of a wheeled office chair to get around that problem, kind of like a mobile precursor to the Golden Throne. No more bending down then, and with his space emporaaaar powers he can disguise his laziness with an image of utter glory.

None of the options, I believe space marines are 8ft tall with there armour on.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Maybe he makes use of a wheeled office chair to get around that problem, kind of like a mobile precursor to the Golden Throne.

Is this what you mean?

Kilkrazy wrote:It must have been a pain for him to endure 28,000 years of bending in half at the waist to fit into normal sized buildings so that no-one would notice him being 11 feet tall.

Truly I appreciate his greatness more than ever.

Am i sensing sarcasm???

Hahaha I hadn't thought of that. Maybe he stayed outside a lot?

I dont think model size is the best indicator since their are many models improperly scaled between each other. Just go with the fluff that says 8-9 ft.

I always figured they were between 7-8 feet tall naked.

And then the armour would add around a foot of height on top of that. Anything taller than 8' really just feels like the writers are trying to one-up one another, and just sounds really stupid when you actually try to visualize it.

And hell, I model all my truescalies to be 8 feet tall (including armour).

Kilkrazy wrote:It must have been a pain for him to endure 28,000 years of bending in half at the waist to fit into normal sized buildings so that no-one would notice him being 11 feet tall.

Truly I appreciate his greatness more than ever.

He could use his psychic powers to appear differently, like he does in The Last Church, where the chair groans underneath the weight of his power armour although the image of him is that of a normal man. I guess he could do the same kind of thing if he was 11 feet tall, I doubt he was though. I mean, he can make a Legion of over 100 thousand Astartes kneel before him, i'm pretty sure he could do a quick mind trick to convince you that he is of normal height.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
In response to the emporer's size:
In the novel Tales of Heresy, the story, the Last Church, the emporer vists an old pastor and they have a conversation about religion. The pastor sees just a regular warrior, with something special about his eyes. Only after the emperor reveals himself does the pastor see the glorious towering figure before him. Being a powerful psyker, could the emperor not hid his precense among mortals like us?

Yeah, this

Back on track this might help, from the mind of Phillip Sibbering, it's not official but gives a good idea

http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_9_Marine_1_Morphology.shtml

I was reading the Chaos Space Marine codex last night. It says very clearly that space marines are around 7'.

I always thought it depended alot on chapter, with some chapters like the Salamanders being obviously bigger than others.

Other marines, such as Veteran-Sergeant Pasanius Lysane of the Ultramarines Chapter are obviously bigger than others, just due to genetics.

However, as an average height, I think most sources seem to say Space Marines are about 7-8ft out of their armor, and then gain signifcant amounts of height, weight and width inside their armor.

Tactical Dreadnaught armor increases this further.

Randomly flicking through books behind me to try and find a reference, but I can't find anything to quote on exact heights.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:This seems to be the hot topic of the week and we were argueing about it at my local GW today.

What do you think?

At least 10 feet 11 inches. After all they are noted as "Giants" in a fluff piece in the Chaos Codex. You can't be 11 feet tall, because then you'd be cxlassed as a Monstrous creature. In Fact, I don't see how terminators get around this. Aftrer all they are huge minis and bases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Accolade wrote:Guys, I think you're missing the most reliable source, as Monster Rain Pointed out, which is wikipedia:

Wikipedia:

While the bulk of humanity's military power is found in the Imperial Guard, the Space Marines(Adeptus Astartes)– giant, 10 foot tall, genetically-enhanced super-soldiers with world-destroying firepower and unswerving, fanatical loyalty to the Emperor of Mankind – are the most famous.[6]

Wikleaks has confirmed cables from Rogal to the Emperor. All reports of marines over 10 feet were to be quashed to give them an extra psychological advantage when they actually appeared. Additionally, it appears the planetary governor of Vernakus IV is always escorted by what was described by inquisitors as a "voluptuous nurse from Valhalla."

just go measure a Space Marine.

Monster Rain wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Maybe he makes use of a wheeled office chair to get around that problem, kind of like a mobile precursor to the Golden Throne.

Is this what you mean?

Yep. In short, the Emperor is Charles Xavier. The mystery is solved.

Frazzled wrote:Wikleaks has confirmed cables from Rogal to the Emperor. All reports of marines over 10 feet were to be quashed to give them an extra psychological advantage when they actually appeared. Additionally, it appears the planetary governor of Vernakus IV is always escorted by what was described by inquisitors as a "voluptuous nurse from Valhalla."

Quoted for awesomeness

Pilau Rice wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It must have been a pain for him to endure 28,000 years of bending in half at the waist to fit into normal sized buildings so that no-one would notice him being 11 feet tall.

Truly I appreciate his greatness more than ever.

He could use his psychic powers to appear differently, like he does in The Last Church, where the chair groans underneath the weight of his power armour although the image of him is that of a normal man. I guess he could do the same kind of thing if he was 11 feet tall, I doubt he was though. I mean, he can make a Legion of over 100 thousand Astartes kneel before him, i'm pretty sure he could do a quick mind trick to convince you that he is of normal height.

No doubt the Emporer could convince anyone he was of normal height by using his psi powers. How did he convince doorways to be 12 feet high, or beds to be 12 feet long, and so on? How were the holy buttocks wedged into armchairs once these had been invented?

I can't remember which book it was in but I remember reading that an imperial guardsman was with a space marine and was described as being 2 meters tall and the Space Marine was a head taller! There was also a Space Wolf that was described as "large" even for a Space Marine. I guess this is one of those cases that just depends on who's writting the story???!!!!!!

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Maybe he makes use of a wheeled office chair to get around that problem, kind of like a mobile precursor to the Golden Throne.

Is this what you mean?

Yep. In short, the Emperor is Charles Xavier. The mystery is solved.

Onslaught looks rather space marine-esque, I dare say.

OT:

Where did that "three meters" idea come from? It's firmly implanted in my brain, but I have no idea where I got it from.

In the first Horus Heresy book, Loken is described as being 2.5 metres tall, and Horus is said to be as tall again as a space marine is to a human, which would make him 3+ metres tall.

Pilau
Excellent linky thanks
That will be super reference for if I ever get arount to doing True Scale marines.

Still have concerns with the hips.
When the marine is walking/running the inside leg armour will be likely to keep catching.

rdit:
was referring to the armour pics
The Height chart with the "evolution" leg spacing and hips are how I imagined they would need to be.

Kilkrazy wrote:
No doubt the Emporer could convince anyone he was of normal height by using his psi powers. How did he convince doorways to be 12 feet high, or beds to be 12 feet long, and so on?

He didn't need to convince low leveled ceilings, doorways etc he just got really good at limbo.

Kilkrazy wrote: How were the holy buttocks wedged into armchairs once these had been invented?

He was an excellent contortionist as well

THE EMPEROR PROTECTS

Where did this idea that marines are 9-10 feet tall originate from? I always considered marines to be tall but within a normal human range I.E. 6'4"

I have the first Angels of Death Codex which contains a story about a Blood Angels Assault Squad lead by a Captain, who are summoned to help some Iron Guard storm a fortification (Awesome story). The Captain is described as 'towering' and explicitly stated as being "seven foot tall".

It seems like Marine height is just getting more and more exaggerated. Though I realise the futility of mentioning 'realism' and 40k in the same paragraph. 10 feet tall is wholly ridiculous. A man who was 10 feet tall and heavily muscled would probably weight upwards of 1000 lbs and would likely not be able to stand up straight, or walk, let alone fight.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Æscholt wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:and wasn't there something in the Iron Snakes novel, about how long they could hold their breath?

In Brothers of the Snake Astartes swim for over 20 minutes while holding the same breath of air. The world record for a human holding his breath underwater is eleven and a half minutes, although with up to 30 minutes of hyperventilating on pure oxygen beforehand times of twenty minutes have been achieved. Those records were set by people who were just sitting in a swimming pool, the Astartes was diving to the bottom of a trench and had no equipment.

Marines can breath water thanks to their 'multi lung' organ implant.

This should give an idea of perspective of someone 9' tall (minus an inch) next to someone about 6' tall



On the subject of variance in space marine heights, e.g. why not 8'-12' if 10' was average: the whole 40K universe is dogmatic, superstitious and paranoid and (according to the only 40K novel I've read) irregularities and mutations during a space marine's development usually meant they were terminated and the mutations studied post mortem.

{ETA} - Oh, and the idea of power armour adding a foot to their height is just daft - could you imagine a space marine in 6 inch heels, with a 6 inch hat on his head? He'd look like a bride's mother.