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Hulksmash wrote:And I agree with WhiteDragon that they could be "enhanced" humans or degeared Alpha Legionaires. Fluff is in the eye of the beholder.

A. i did say they could represent degeared alpha legion marines
B. an enhanced human could be represented by a normal scout but not a space wolves scout

its not ''fluff is in the eye of the beholder'' its the stat line doesn't fit the unit

BluntmanDC wrote:
its not ''fluff is in the eye of the beholder'' its the stat line doesn't fit the unit

cultists don't' have a stat-line...

If they had rules, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

cultists stat lines would be similar to a normal humans, counts as armys should pick a codex that best suits their fluff play style, same as the admech daemon army, why would an agumented human with a big gun have no BS points, it doesn't fit.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:And I agree with WhiteDragon that they could be "enhanced" humans or degeared Alpha Legionaires. Fluff is in the eye of the beholder.

A. i did say they could represent degeared alpha legion marines
B. an enhanced human could be represented by a normal scout but not a space wolves scout

its not ''fluff is in the eye of the beholder'' its the stat line doesn't fit the unit

Why couldn't Alpha Legion have veteran scouts? If your opponent has modelled scouts painted in Alpha Legion colors, with the appropriate weapons, does it really matter if they are "de-geared" marines or enhanced humans or cultists?

To put it another way, why do Space Wolves have the monopoly on scouts in the 41st millenium? Your "B" doesn't compute to me at all. Why can't enhanced humans be veterans either? What is the difference between Luther and a Dark Angels space marine really, besides Longevity and the lack of a Black Carapace?

BluntmanDC wrote:cultists stat lines would be similar to a normal humans, counts as armys should pick a codex that best suits their fluff play style, same as the admech daemon army, why would an agumented human with a big gun have no BS points, it doesn't fit.

What's the "fluff play style" for a force that doesn't have an army? If we knew how admech would play, they'd have an army book!

It isn't fair to say that counts as should always pick a codex that best suits their fluff play style, because, well, there is enough fluff variety for every potential army with no codex that you can pretty much justify any codex if you put even a little bit of work into it. For example, the daemons representing admech for the teleporting isn't 100% perfect, but neither is just some boring guard army since, well, they never teleport and don't really have anything to represent heavy infantry (ogryns don't count). And every army is different - there are admech units that would be much better represented by straight up IG...and there would be admech armies that would be best as straight up daemons. I think Hulksmash's army is somewhere in between since some of the units don't make as much sense teleporting...but when you're in between you have to pick *something*.

But this conversation isn't about what you should do for a counts-as. I think pretty much anything is fair game. This is about counts-as in a *Tournament*. And I think in that case, the burden is much more on the person bringing the strange army than in regular games with friends or random store opponents. In a tournament, winning matters, and you can't say sorry I won't play you, so anything outside of the regular rules that gives you an advantage is nice for you, but potentially unfair. You're technically playing for money here. I don't really think Hulks army was made to be an awesome Admech conversion (it is pretty cool, but not mind blowing), I think it was made to be a competitive and all-plastic daemons army, and it does this well. But I think it's in a grey area of being obvious/not-obvious enough what everything is to be truly fair in a tournament setting. In the end I think this is something for the TO to decide, and the player playing an army like this should probably talk to the TO ahead of time just to make sure there won't be any problems. Once the TO has approved it, who cares what the other players have to say.

ph34r wrote:When there is no way to logically deduce what the opponent's army is across the table without consulting a "handy note sheet", there is a big problem with their army, and they should not be in a tournament.

Pretty much this. We are not saying the models should be smashed with a hammer and the pieces burned... This thread is about tourneys... often where games are played over two days and for thousands of dollars and people spend hundreds to attend. People should expect 'FAIR' games and should respect thier opponent by not burdening them unreasonably.

To basically take the attitude of "screw you... you must be stupid or dumb if you can't keep up" is not good sportsmanship. you are coming the the game with an unreasonable army and your opponent suffers. And in a tourney where people have been playing with high stakes, long days, lots of distractions and probably hungover from being up all night, bad 'counts as' becomes a much larger burden than two dudes playing a pick up game in a friendly store one Saturday.

This Ad Mech army is a bunch of models that are generally unclear and I could just as easily shoe-horn these models into an Iguard list or even an ork list almost as easily as Deamons... EVERY army has high strength weapons, fast moving guys, melee guys, strong armor guys, small light vehicles which these generic unclear models can fit into. Is that a tzzench deamon priest? an I guard Sentinel? A Mega armor boss? A wraithlord? a Deff Dred? Frankly it probably could be any of them and fit all of those way before it fits a Daemon price which is part of the problem and also makes people question the motivation. Just like people who want to have bikes be TWC instead of SW bikers simply because they want the advantage and do not want to match the models to the closest appropriate rules.

I want to know where all these total hypocrites who claim 'tournaments are competitive... if you are worried about appearance call it a hobby event.' are because if this is a tourney then there should be restrictions on unfair conversions, exploitative conversions, unclear conversions and burdensome counts-as armies. Fair is fair and we have a Meta game integrity. Someone should not expect to lose because thier opponent is modeling for advantage or having a cloak of ambiguity via unclear models. If that makes tourneys boring... so be it. You can't have it both ways. Competitive events require a level of fairness and standardization that an unclear 'counts as' army damages.

That is why I chose C. I have played against bad Counts as, I know people who have played against bad counts as and I see unreasonable counts as and conversions on this site every day... great to look at, I dread facing them in any tourney. I respect my opponent to bring standard sized models and correctly modeled and clear models for them to play against. If I have a conversion, I have the standard model in the bad if they feel there is a discrepancy with it. That is being a good sport and respecting opponents... not "you must be stupid if you can't suck it up." Opponents should expect a fair game and not have to suck up a disadvantage unwillingly.

I've never been to a 40K tournament so I have a different concern/perspective than most of you veterns. If I were playing a count as army at a gaming club or other casual situation I think it would be fun. A tournament is a much different matter. I am already laboring under a time constraint in an unfamiliar environment. Asking me to remember which special unit is which ordinary unit is putting a burden on me that is unfair. Even with a picture chart, I've got enough to worry about with my own troops and countering your (the opponents) tactics. It's just expecting too much for me to do all of this with an army that I'm seeing for the first time from an opponent that I've (probably) never met before.
You have an advantage from the start in this situation. Unless I'm using a count as army as well then you get to concentrate on me in a "pure" way. That is you know that my IG guardsman is an IG guardsman and not a horror. Meanwhile I have to remember that your rough riders are bloodcrushers and if I forget to check the chart you gave me I could be majorly screwed.
I'm not trying to take a swipe at anyone in particular but I'm just trying to point out that rookies or inexperienced players are entitled to the same level of fairness and ease as you vets. We already have a problem just getting our legs under us without an extra burden.

Polonius wrote:Well, I'm smart enough to not think that my opponent who says he's playing demons but uses a lot of IG models is running drones. I'm laid back enough that I'm not overly concerned about some minor advantage he might gain. I have enough respect for the hobby side to encourage neat looking armies.

I also know that if I were to model up some counts-as, most people would be ok with it, and most of those that aren't wouldn't say anything to me in person.

Who said anything about thinking that the "daemon" player is actually using gun drones rules? Now you're just making stuff up.

If you don't think that anyone would ever be confused by a counts as army that is incredibly unclear, because you would not be confused and/or not care that you are at a disadvantage, you're nuts. Sorry bud, the world doesn't revolve around you.

Keep in mind that a well painted and well intentioned confusing army is still a confusing army. Are the admech daemons well painted and converted? Sure. Would you judge differently if the army was less well painted, or you thought the other guy was a jerk? I think so. At this point you may realize that how confusing your army is, is not directly related to how nice a guy you are or how much effort you put into painting and converting.


The fact that nobody in real life would want to get you upset about your hard-converted army does not mean that they aren't thinking to themselves "man, I wish this guy's army was more consistent, it's impossible to keep track of what's what". Especially in a tournament.

Well, in this case, I don't need the world to revolve around me. I don't play counts-as, and don't mind if others do.

On the other hand, this thread is full of people saying "the rules you want to use are different than the rules I think you should use, and that gives you an unfair advantage and it's not right."

So, maybe you need to think about who is asking the world to revolve around whom.

Here's a stupid question: I play IG. I run both vets and platoons, and while my squads are all marked, a lot of people find it confusing figuring out what squad is what. I mean, i'm playing the army that way because it's stronger. I'm not using different models, in many cases the exact same poses are in both squads. Does that make me wrong?

What about completely unpainted armies? Why is it somehow ok to show up with a cardboard box full of grey plastic, with no way to tell squads or units apart, but counts as is "an unfair advantage"?

I guess my point is that there are lot of ways to gain an advantage, which have no other utility to the hobby. Once we eliminate hand written lists, unpainted armies, rules lawyering, all forms of cheating, and codex creep, than I can see making counts as armies a pretty big deal. Until then, there are simply easier ways to get ahead.

The best part is we're talking about the Daemon codex. The only truly not so great 5th edition codex and converting to play it is someone trying to gain unfair advantages

I understand where you guys are coming from. But you want a blanket statement when 9/10 the rule of cool will apply to something like this. And you guys (ph34r and nkelsh) will be in the minority. Reece said it best, if you know the Daemon codex well it's pretty easy to keep track of what's what. But then I've played against enough people at tournaments who don't know their own codex let alone mine so who knows right?

I've already ordered little plaques for them from a sight that IM (or someone from adepticon) recommended. Maybe it's my personal take because I think it's fine if my opponent brings something like this. In fact a different army normally get's my vote for best army at the end of the day because it's different.

It's a big hobby. TO's can outlaw stuff like this and most people that build it would just bring another army. It's not like it's my only one and I can tell you, most people would rather see my "Daemons" than my Wolves across the table from them

Oh and Labadomy, your objections were well said my friend.

Polonius wrote:Well, in this case, I don't need the world to revolve around me. I don't play counts-as, and don't mind if others do.

On the other hand, this thread is full of people saying "the rules you want to use are different than the rules I think you should use, and that gives you an unfair advantage and it's not right."

So, maybe you need to think about who is asking the world to revolve around whom.

Here's a stupid question: I play IG. I run both vets and platoons, and while my squads are all marked, a lot of people find it confusing figuring out what squad is what. I mean, i'm playing the army that way because it's stronger. I'm not using different models, in many cases the exact same poses are in both squads. Does that make me wrong?

What about completely unpainted armies? Why is it somehow ok to show up with a cardboard box full of grey plastic, with no way to tell squads or units apart, but counts as is "an unfair advantage"?

I guess my point is that there are lot of ways to gain an advantage, which have no other utility to the hobby. Once we eliminate hand written lists, unpainted armies, rules lawyering, all forms of cheating, and codex creep, than I can see making counts as armies a pretty big deal. Until then, there are simply easier ways to get ahead.

That is all well and good. I in fact love counts as, parts of my IG army are counts as, but I make sure it is very clear what they are. My entire Lamenters army is counts as, because it's the only way to field the Lamenters first company, but it's just a recolor. I'm even fine with significant counts-as armies. Like what hulksmash said, 9/10 times I love counts as. It's that 1/10 that is just confusing and doesn't make sense to an opponent, and can make for some serious problems in a tournament.

I'm saying the world revolves around everyone except the person making the counts as. Basically the exact opposite of what you are saying to me that I think.

That would be a bit confusing, and sure you could alleviate it, but it is totally acceptable for a couple reasons:
1. Those are the official models. Nobody can complain about modeling.
2. The statlines are almost exactly the same. Even if there was an official model, it wouldn't be a problem because they are so similar.

It's okay because that's part of the game, painting your models. I don't think anyone would ever be baffled by color enough to not be able to tell what a lascannon is. It's not even in the same ballpark as my arguments, I don't know why you would think that is a viable counterargument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:cultists stat lines would be similar to a normal humans, counts as armys should pick a codex that best suits their fluff play style, same as the admech daemon army, why would an agumented human with a big gun have no BS points, it doesn't fit.

What's the "fluff play style" for a force that doesn't have an army? If we knew how admech would play, they'd have an army book!

Fact A: Admech has fluff
Fact B: Admech fluff describes them as being similar to Guard, with variations
Fact C: Admech does not have a book
Fact D: Guard has a book

Given the preceding information, one would hope that one could piece together something with their massive powers of deduction and reasoning.

Hello,
Let me say this, if you are creative enough to sculpt, and build your own conversions, while retaining the "flavor of the grimdark,( now in tasty MSG thanks FW)", making it to where your base sizes and army make sense while your armies fit the game. I.E. not doing it just to be cheap. Then I am all for it. It is when I see a bunch of craftworld eldar suddenly with spikes, and he is telling me they are DE and I have no idea what anything is, I have a issue. Of course from a point of someone who works in a game store, if I see you fielding minis that were from a differnt game they you found for a dollar a piece (I am looking at you Mutant Chronicles plastics from like 1998), that did not look right I might ask you to get something that at least looked the part, or had the right guns.

Regards,
Carl

ArbitorIan wrote:

warboss wrote:Alpha Legion are not Space Wolves and this list tests the borders a bit

Wehrkind wrote:No, it's fine and you're a snob

I'm on the Warboss side of things here. Basically, creating counts-as armies is really cool. You should do it. But if you ARE going to do it, it has to be WATERTIGHT. No possible room for confusion. I'd argue that taking Alpha Legion as SW is confusing. The single most annoying thing I'd find is that he has a load of units that are apparently 'cultists' who are much better than regular marines. The general most annoying thing is that I can, off the top of my head, think of at least three better ways to represent AL than using SW. (Chaos Marines with Summoned Daemons, Vraks Renegades and Heretics, Space Marines with lots of regular Scouts). I realise that they maybe 'super-modified genos cultists' but that's still quite a way off of 'better than a marine'. In fact, I'd argue regular Marine scouts or Summondes Daemons are much better placed for the 'modified human' role.

This makes me question the motives for using SW, other than 'I had one army, but wanted another'. If that IS the motive, then it's exactly the same as 'these orks are actually nids'.

There was a thread on here a while ago, soon after the SW codex released, that caused a similar argument. A guy had an amazingly created marine army, with some fantastic jetbike conversions. He'd decided that he should definitely use the SW codex, because then the jetbikes could be thunderwolves. He was bawled out by the whole site because, if his motivation was REALLY to do 'jetbike ancient marines' there are loads of obvious better ways to represent them - Land Speeders, or Bikes for example. It was quite obvious he was just latching onto the new codex.

I'll play ball.

Space Wolf Scouts have the exact same stat line as Tac marines, with carapace armor. Their extra special rules include Acute Senses (fits with sneaky troopers with specs), And They Shall Know No Fear (I agree, iffy), Counter Attack (Iffy, but then the genos troopers in Legion were pretty bad ass standing up to Marines in some cases), Infiltrate (perfect), Move Through Cover (perfect) Behind Enemy Lines (Great), and Scout (yea... perfect.)
So of all their rules, Counter Attack and ATSKNF are the issues. Compared to the marines in power armor in the list, the main differences is the armor and sneakiness.

SM Scouts I would agree would be a bit better; a little lesser WS/BS, no counter attack or acute senses. Otherwise though, they are the same. A little less beefy in melee, but that's about it. Neither acute senses nor counter attack is all that powerful.

Summoned demons though? Really? Somehow infiltrating operatives that only attack in melee, have invulnerable saves, have to deep strike into combat around an icon without any sort of infiltration makes more sense? Really?

I could see the argument that the SM codex would be better, unless he wanted to take multiple character class units. It kind of breaks down then. Personally, I would probably run it as SM; I was thinking of running my LatD as SM, but I already had an SM army I hated to play, so it didn't seem like a good idea Plus Orks worked better for the beefer Marines and more melee oriented gribble.

Vraks though, hell, even I wasn't willing to pony up the cash for the books Blood Pact might work better, but I never was willing to pay that much to find out, and I wouldn't expect someone else to either.

Seriously though, you guys seem to be getting too wrapped up in what the book tells you the rules represent as opposed to what the rules actually represent across all books. Case in point: SW Scouts and regular SM Scouts. 1 point of WS and BS, Acute Senses, Counter attack and Behind Enemy lines are the only difference. Not much "better than a marine" after all, just two special rules, and not vastly better than a regular scout.

I dunno, maybe it is because I am more of a numbers/rules guy, but I see the rules and stats as modeling certain groups of behaviors. So when I say "This unit counts as X" I don't mean they have all the fluff and such, I mean they use the same rules to represent their own fluff. Units are just collections of stats and rules to roughly simulate their fluff. I say roughly, because half the time it is pretty vague, which is why a lot of more out there units have unique special rules. With pretty rare exception, there is a unit for any fluff idea, the trouble is getting them all in one codex.

As for nkelsch, Polonius put it far better than I could.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RiTides wrote:A side effect of this thread- Wehrkind, I didn't realize you had such an awesome counts-as army (that someone linked to earlier)... that thing rocks!!

Thanks man, I appreciate it . I use a LOT of counts as, partially because my main army is Sisters and Inquisition, the Inq part of which doesn't have official models for most of it, but even with that my guard have Counts As Marbo, my orks are 100% and you have seen my Warriors of Chaos. The only army without counts as is my marines, come to think of it. There are just too many great models out there, and too many missing or crappy GW models, to not throw in different options. Not to mention too many cool ideas entirely without books (though oddly sometimes not without models).

I have to agree that as long as everything is adequately and consistantly represented, counts-as is fine. If every unit in a counts-as, let's say Space Marines for simplicity, army that has a Lascannon is using the same (reasonable) equipment on the model to represent it, be it a giant lazer gun, solid slug firing rail gun, or fancy organic spike launcher it's all good.

I'm a little biased though, as the customization and openness of Warhammer is what (Originally) kept me playing it. And as they're streamlining and removing some of the uniqueness from codices as they go, the counts-as front looks brighter for people like me who want to have characterful forces. I've toyed with a few ideas for them, just never got any off the ground. Though Lost and the Damned eternally tug at me.

Now, I do believe some concessions must be made by the person playing a counts-as force in a competetive setting. The already mentioned name plates or reference sheets are a fantastic idea to keep things moving with less confusion. Is it a little extra hassle? Sure, but someone with a full counts-as army has most likely already put a ton of time and effort into making their idea into a reality, what's another hour or two to ensure that you can play it with little trouble.

The fact that people are getting upset about this is weird to me. I have played in tons of tournaments with all kinds of counts as armies including the "my dark angels are actually space wolves" type and have never had a problem with it.

Counts as armies bring variety tot he table.

If you know the rules well then remembering what is what won't be that difficult. I have never had a problem with it, although maybe I am just that much more intelligent than everyone else. From what some people seem to be saying it is quantum physics to them to remember these things when really it is pretty straightforward.

I think the real issue here is that some people feel that it provides some kind of unfair advantage or disadvantage to allow these things in a tournament. The real reason 99% of people make a counts as army is because they are inspired to build something unique and then want to share it with others. That is hardly something that warrants being barred from a tournament. The only time I could see it being unfair or unreasonable is if it is a totally outlandish substitution (which I understand is subjective). But if something is a reasonable substitution on the correct base size and it is obvious that the intent was not to gain advantage but to be creative then go for it.

Anyway, this argument is silly so I am going to bow out. To each their own I guess.

Reecius wrote:The fact that people are getting upset about this is weird to me. I have played in tons of tournaments with all kinds of counts as armies including the "my dark angels are actually space wolves" type and have never had a problem with it.

Why do you have to use the word "upset" to describe others wishing that tournament armies be clear enough to not confuse an opponent?
Are you trying to troll?


E: Basically implying that everyone else is mad is a really bad way to "bow out" of an argument. Like, the worst.

Was there not a thread already started about this? Tournaments are a strictly WYSIWG imo. I dont pay my money to go to a tournament to fight some godawful count as army and would be bummed out if I had to play one.

ph34r wrote:

Reecius wrote:The fact that people are getting upset about this is weird to me. I have played in tons of tournaments with all kinds of counts as armies including the "my dark angels are actually space wolves" type and have never had a problem with it.

Why do you have to use the word "upset" to describe others wishing that tournament armies be clear enough to not confuse an opponent?
Are you trying to troll?


E: Basically implying that everyone else is mad is a really bad way to "bow out" of an argument. Like, the worst.

I'm not entirely certain his use of upset has the negative connotation you're implying. I think he's genuinely surprised that people have negative feelings at all.

I also think he's saying that most counts as armies are clear enough not to confuse an opponent. I'd add that most counts as armies are clearer than a lot of unpainted armies, and even some painted armies.

The point is, experience has shown that in practice, people tend not to say anything negative about playing against counts as. There are a two possiblities:
1) People are more willing to say negative stuff online, and in person tend to stay quiet, or
2) After playing the army, they realize they're able to keep track of stuff pretty easily

The fact that you think his exit is "the worst" is a little hyperbolic. I mean, if nothing else, you can always be clearer in displaying contempt. Say something like, "I don't get why you losers have your panties in a twist over creative armies." I think that's worse right there.

whitedragon wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:And I agree with WhiteDragon that they could be "enhanced" humans or degeared Alpha Legionaires. Fluff is in the eye of the beholder.

A. i did say they could represent degeared alpha legion marines
B. an enhanced human could be represented by a normal scout but not a space wolves scout

its not ''fluff is in the eye of the beholder'' its the stat line doesn't fit the unit

Why couldn't Alpha Legion have veteran scouts? If your opponent has modelled scouts painted in Alpha Legion colors, with the appropriate weapons, does it really matter if they are "de-geared" marines or enhanced humans or cultists?

To put it another way, why do Space Wolves have the monopoly on scouts in the 41st millenium? Your "B" doesn't compute to me at all. Why can't enhanced humans be veterans either? What is the difference between Luther and a Dark Angels space marine really, besides Longevity and the lack of a Black Carapace?

space wolves scouts are different from standard scouts as they are veteran marines not enhanced humans pre marines, how is a cultist equal to a veteran marine?

polonius wrote:What about completely unpainted armies? Why is it somehow ok to show up with a cardboard box full of grey plastic, with no way to tell squads or units apart, but counts as is "an unfair advantage"?

pointless question, nearlly all non-painted games are among friends as most stores have a paint policy and no tournament (the point of the thread) allow non painted armies.

why not just use the DH codex for AL, I mean you get the uber SM's and wicked psychic powers, and you can use Storm troopers as cultists. Cause lets face it, storm troopers themselves are already fairly advanced humans. At least in training.

I have one guy I play with that has converted the Dwarven Steam Behemoth from Mage-Knight for a battlewagon. He removed the base, painted it red, and glued some orky bits and weaponry on it.

What would you guys think of this?

BluntmanDC wrote:

polonius wrote:What about completely unpainted armies? Why is it somehow ok to show up with a cardboard box full of grey plastic, with no way to tell squads or units apart, but counts as is "an unfair advantage"?

pointless question, nearlly all non-painted games are among friends as most stores have a paint policy and no tournament (the point of the thread) allow non painted armies.

Really?

Except for hard boys.

And lots of local tournaments.

And even reasonably major RTTs.

Wait, what were you saying again?

Yeah, there are normally at least 3-4 people at local RTT's i've been to all over the west coast and in texas that don't have painted armies. And even GT's with a painting minimum had a dude with 3 dots on half his stuff last at a major event last year. Unpainted happens more than people think.

Thaylen wrote:I have one guy I play with that has converted the Dwarven Steam Behemoth from Mage-Knight for a battlewagon. He removed the base, painted it red, and glued some orky bits and weaponry on it.

What would you guys think of this?

it wouldn't be allowed in a GW tournament

Hulksmash wrote:Yeah, there are normally at least 3-4 people at local RTT's i've been to all over the west coast and in texas that don't have painted armies. And even GT's with a painting minimum had a dude with 3 dots on half his stuff last at a major event last year. Unpainted happens more than people think

and i think most people would be off at having paid money to have to play someone like that

BluntmanDC wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:And I agree with WhiteDragon that they could be "enhanced" humans or degeared Alpha Legionaires. Fluff is in the eye of the beholder.

A. i did say they could represent degeared alpha legion marines
B. an enhanced human could be represented by a normal scout but not a space wolves scout

its not ''fluff is in the eye of the beholder'' its the stat line doesn't fit the unit

Why couldn't Alpha Legion have veteran scouts? If your opponent has modelled scouts painted in Alpha Legion colors, with the appropriate weapons, does it really matter if they are "de-geared" marines or enhanced humans or cultists?

To put it another way, why do Space Wolves have the monopoly on scouts in the 41st millenium? Your "B" doesn't compute to me at all. Why can't enhanced humans be veterans either? What is the difference between Luther and a Dark Angels space marine really, besides Longevity and the lack of a Black Carapace?

space wolves scouts are different from standard scouts as they are veteran marines not enhanced humans pre marines, how is a cultist equal to a veteran marine?

Because Space Wolf Scouts do not have particularly veteran stats. How many attacks? Just one. WS/BS? Standard. Ld? Standard. Same special rules as all the other marines in that codex, save for the sneaky bits. So describing them as Veteran Marines instead of sneakier marines is really just reading the fluff not understanding how they work in game. Just because the writer tells you how insanely awesome the unit is does not make it insane or awesome. Hell, most units' stats don't live up to their fluff, hence the existence of Movie Marines.
Besides, Alpha legion operatives are not mere Cultists like you would think of from the Dawn of War games. Alpharius doesn't roll like that. Alpha Legion is too sneaky and clever to use loonies with no subtlety who run around capturing things for chaos. Their operatives are the best at what they do and achieve high placement in various organizations. Think more James Bond than Gay Boy Berzerker.

polonius wrote:What about completely unpainted armies? Why is it somehow ok to show up with a cardboard box full of grey plastic, with no way to tell squads or units apart, but counts as is "an unfair advantage"?

This is an excellent point, as plastic/pewter men all look alike from 4 feet when unpainted, whether they are Stern Guard or Tactical marines.
Speaking of which, none of you guys EVER use Tactical Marines or Assault Marines dolled up a bit to count as Stern Guard or Vanguard Vets, right? Because you know, they make a model and just using marines from your box instead of using a much better looking kit for 50$ is lame.

Thaylen wrote:I have one guy I play with that has converted the Dwarven Steam Behemoth from Mage-Knight for a battlewagon. He removed the base, painted it red, and glued some orky bits and weaponry on it.

What would you guys think of this?

I think it is freaking awesome, and wish to know where I can get my hands on 2-3!

BluntmanDC wrote:space wolves scouts are different from standard scouts as they are veteran marines not enhanced humans pre marines, how is a cultist equal to a veteran marine?

Why or why not? Seems to me it's most definetely "fluff in the eye of the beholder", since their stats (as shown by Wehrkind) aren't really all that different, and in most cases, the stats contradict the fluff anyway. So what you are really saying is, "If you don't follow my view of the established fluff, then I don't like it". We are all saying first that isn't a very good argument, and second that it's woefully restrictive on creativity that is one of the cornerstones of this hobby.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Thaylen wrote:I have one guy I play with that has converted the Dwarven Steam Behemoth from Mage-Knight for a battlewagon. He removed the base, painted it red, and glued some orky bits and weaponry on it.

What would you guys think of this?

it wouldn't be allowed in a GW tournament

We don't have GW tournaments over here in the states anymore, with the exception of 'Ard Boyz, so it probably isn't an issue. And even if it was, slap some ork bits on there and paint it cool, and nobody would have a problem.

And to snip another piece from Wehrkind:

"Besides, Alpha legion operatives are not mere Cultists like you would think of from the Dawn of War games. Alpharius doesn't roll like that. Alpha Legion is too sneaky and clever to use loonies with no subtlety who run around capturing things for chaos. Their operatives are the best at what they do and achieve high placement in various organizations. Think more James Bond than Gay Boy Berzerker."

This is my point exactly. The fluff whole heartedly supports super awesome covert Alpha Legionnaires (either Marines or not) running behind enemy lines and causing havok. To suggest otherwise is laughable, and further takes your argument down the "f;uff is in the eye of the beholder" path.

Part of the thing that attracted us to 40k I'd imagine is the rich, open-ended world GW has created. To look at their universe with such black and white glasses really takes some of the richness out of it, and just enforces the notion of stereotype/archetype that everybody loves to get excited about. The 40k universe is something different to everyone, and I find it one of the great pleasures of this game to see how 40k looks through someone else's eyes (via their army/models) especially at a tournament, which (with the exception of 'Ard Boyz) is a showcase not only of good sportsmanship and generalship, but also of painting and hobby ability as well. To place some sort of artificial constraint on that is doing the entire hobby a disservice.

I also hear that if you want such strict interpretation of modelling/painting, Warmachine is a good place to start. (Although even that game is starting to loosen up a bit.)

Wehrkind wrote:

Thaylen wrote:I have one guy I play with that has converted the Dwarven Steam Behemoth from Mage-Knight for a battlewagon. He removed the base, painted it red, and glued some orky bits and weaponry on it.

What would you guys think of this?

I think it is freaking awesome, and wish to know where I can get my hands on 2-3!

Ebay, they are like $15-20 a pop.

As long as its CLEARLY identifiable

I need the counts-as to be clearly identifiable. I've played against the plastic cup droppod army and I was quite annoyed. On the other side of the coin, a few years ago I played a converted SM army. The land speeders were RalPartha Werewolves with burst cannons on their heads, one dread was a portal on a dread base and the other was 2 beastman cav on a dread base. I stayed reasonably confused for most of the game. Thankfully, plasma cannons fix a lot of those problems. Stay in the middle ground folks. Make life easy on the majority of us.