Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As a Deathwing player I can tell you that Codex: Space Marines is NOT weaker than Codex: Dark Angels. Shiny new update aside, DA is still a 4th edition codex. It has 4th edition prices. The new TH/SS aren't any more points over the base cost, but we pay more for terminators to start. Our Razorbacks are 50 points AND we don't have las/plas. We have no mortis dreadnoughts, and our dreads are more expensive anyway. The venerable is cheaper, but doesn't have the BS/WS increase. Our librarians are Ld. 9, more expensive, and have no choice on their powers (AND the powers are pretty mediocre). Ravenwing is still a tad expensive they still have the stupid unit size inflexibiltiy (3 bikers OR 6 bikers). No attack bike squads, and while Typhoons are cheaper, the other landspeeders are more expensive. Our tacs are ok, but again ONLY come in groups of 5 or 10. Our scouts are the same way, but are elites. They have the improved BS and WS, but again are elites and don't get free snipers. To say that Codex: Space Marines is weaker than Codex: Dark Angels is, IMHO, inaccurate.

If I might stand as a voice of reason to all this madness, gentlemen:

each power armor-bearing codex has it's own speciality which balances things out and leaves the player whining about one thing and braggin about another.

1. Grey knights- fluffwise, they deserve to be on top if the vanilla codex, but they're great for killing daemons, not so great for the rest.

2. Black Templars- they give favored enemy to everything and have terminators with a better efficiency, but everything else in the codex is trash or out of date.

3. Dark angels- scoring terminators which have mixed weapon squads is nothing to be complaining about, but the rest isn't so eventful.

4. Space wolves- well. Ok gw screwed up for once, but hey they're almost reliant on priority targets like thunderwolves to win.

5. Blood Angels- they're an assault monster, but they lose value on good ranged support for the extra aggression.

6. Chaos- the marks, and special troops are great plus obliterators but otherwise all the other codexea have much more options.

7. Space marines- you have all of the options. There is no extreme awesome or extreme setbacks, bit versatility is often the best for any situation. Being lackluster often means you forget how much of a Swiss army knife you truly can be.

These are all exaggerated a bit to show the point that the ultramrines will always and forever be the gw favorite and will never worry about going stale, only bland and well balanced.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:That's why I would stick with scouts. As objective holders they can go to ground with camo cloaks for a 2+. Also if you wanted to deep strike the entire army the scouts can outflank. If you deep strike some of the army they can have teleport homers. They are inexpensive troops that seem to have a good synergy with assault termies.

Yes, all very true. However, it wouldn't really match the fluff with the way I was putting my list together... First Company Ultramarines don't really employ the use of Scouts, let alone Tactical Marines.

Actually it would make perfect sense fluff wise. Ultramarine scouts bit off more than they could chew and need first company to bail them out of trouble. Wounded scouts would also make good objective markers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skavenknight wrote:If I might stand as a voice of reason to all this madness, gentlemen:

each power armor-bearing codex has it's own speciality which balances things out and leaves the player whining about one thing and braggin about another.

1. Grey knights- fluffwise, they deserve to be on top if the vanilla codex, but they're great for killing daemons, not so great for the rest.

2. Black Templars- they give favored enemy to everything and have terminators with a better efficiency, but everything else in the codex is trash or out of date.

3. Dark angels- scoring terminators which have mixed weapon squads is nothing to be complaining about, but the rest isn't so eventful.

4. Space wolves- well. Ok gw screwed up for once, but hey they're almost reliant on priority targets like thunderwolves to win.

5. Blood Angels- they're an assault monster, but they lose value on good ranged support for the extra aggression.

6. Chaos- the marks, and special troops are great plus obliterators but otherwise all the other codexea have much more options.

7. Space marines- you have all of the options. There is no extreme awesome or extreme setbacks, bit versatility is often the best for any situation. Being lackluster often means you forget how much of a Swiss army knife you truly can be.

These are all exaggerated a bit to show the point that the ultramrines will always and forever be the gw favorite and will never worry about going stale, only bland and well balanced.

This is a bitter subject for chaos players.

There are 10 different rules sets for imperial marines, 5 alone in the Codex marines book.
There is 1 rule set for chaos marines.
Emperor's Children
Iron Warriors
Night Lords
World Eaters
Death Guard
Thousand Sons
Black Legion
Word Bearers
Alpha Legion
Red Corsairs

9 legions and red corsairs are crammed into 1 single book with absolutely no difference between the armies.

Imperial marines players are spoiled, and they are the quickest to complain when one chapter seems to get a let up on the rest.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:

Reecius wrote:@Nuggz
I think no one has that many terminators! Haha.

*Ahem*... Actually, I do... And while I have yet to field 30 in a Non-Apoc game, once I'm done with painting my last 10 Assault Terminators, I look forward to trying them in a regular game.

My personal take on the reason why I think we don't see that many Terminators in tournaments is for a few reasons:

1. "Comp Scores" are more of a deterrent factor in many tournaments now these days, and anyone who strolls up with 30 TH/SS Terminators (or some combination of them) is bound to get hit low in that category.

2. At 40 points/model, that's 1200 points minimum we're talking about being spent on 30 models. Most tournaments are usually around 1850, which leaves 650 points for at least 2 Troop choices and an HQ. Not to say that it's impossible to achieve, but now you're looking at a lot of Terminators that are going to be doing a lot of walking. Even with 1 Land Raider, you've got at least 25 who have no transport. And in a game where movement is vital, even 30 TH/SS Terminators will be hard pressed to walk that far and still be in strong enough numbers to fight in CC.

Anyways, I digress.... Please continue with your .......

Haha, I have over thirty termies too, but most people don't. At least not most people I know.

Comp is disappearing. I don't know how many tournaments you go to or what your local scene is like, but on a national level comp is going the way of the dinosaur. Saying people don't take 30 termies for comp reasons is making a statement without much data to support it for one, and untrue for two. I'm not trying to put you down here, just stating a counter-point.

And yes, 30 termies is 1200 points....of pure kick ass.

As Scahdenfreude said, you take a few units of scouts for troops. Shirke is better than a chappy as it makes the termies speedy and one unit infiltrates. Add in a gating libby and you have a VERY fast termie army. I know it works because I have both played it and played against it. That is an army of fleeting termies that will wreck most armies without much effort at all. The only real downside is a mobile, VoF army like Venom spam DE.

But anyway, too each their own. I know a lot of people look at one little change and get all a-flutter about the game and think it is broken, or what have you. But the game is just fine, SMs are a very powerful army and the data backs that up.

I can see where thinking playing vanilla marines is boring and over-played, you know in-between their gloating about winning and crying about losing a game to a non vanilla player.

I wonder how long it will take for gw to make a new non marine army