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I really don't understand all of the FAQ updates to the 4th ed MEQ books. They get the potency of 5th ed Marine weapons (Cyclone, typhoon, storm shields ect) with the 4th ed cost. Typhoons for 75pts? Cyclones for 20pts? And they still get all the positive rules (army-wide preferred enemy, scoring Termies, tank hunter termies). BT can get 5th ed POTMS on ANY VEHICLE FOR FETH SAKES. Whats the point of playing vanilla marines anymore?

Am I the only person who is outraged that the 5th ed Marine book was put on the bottom of the MEQ heap overnight? I understand the power-creep but this is getting out of hand.

Ah, another one of these threads.

Standard SM's still have (not in order of importance):

-Better Pysker defense
-Better Powers
-Good all bike armies (no RW is not a good all bike army)
-The ability to make more than a single style of list (i.e. a flexible force org)
-Storms & Thunderfires
-Scout Bikers (over the old 4ed codexs + Wolves)
-Better characters
-Cheaper w/more option transports

That's in 3 minutes of thinking about it. I haven't, and won't, fully analyze the difference for people who cry at change. But I will say that at least now there is only 2 codexes in the game that don't have a competitive build and one is getting a codex in April and the other one is rumored for later this year. It's a good day to play 40k.

How are they cheaper? BT/DA can get cheap competitive units (that are cheaper then vanilla marines) like Pred Annihilators and Typhoons, and can spam them. They get all of the 5th ed marine toys and retain their own benefits. I see no reason to play Vanilla marines over any other, except storms and thunderfire cannons (not a reason to play them). The only reason would be to make a bike army but that's it.


I am not saying DA/BT shouldn't have gotten updates, but they should have been more fleshed out (points and rules adjustments) then what it currently is. And how is it fair for the other 4th and 3rd ed armies?

Coming from a Dark Angel player, this is what I see at a glance of the advantages of C:SM

Thunderfire
Land Speeder Storm
Ironclad Dreadnought
Your venerable dreads are better, though more expensive
Free stuff on Tacs
Vanguard Vets
Scout Bikes
Land Raider Redeemers
A frickload of different HQ's

Cheaper Terminators (yes, 5 pts cheaper with the cyclone)
Cheaper Dreadnoughts
Cheaper and better Bikes
Cheaper Techmarines
Cheaper dakka preds (annialators are the same price)
Cheaper Scouts with free sniper rifles
Cheaper Vindicators

What are you whining about?

Luco wrote:Coming from a Dark Angel player, this is what I see at a glance of the advantages of C:SM

Thunderfire Thunderfire is non a competitive unit. It may be fun to use, but thanks to slowed artillery rules, a gentle breeze will take this thing out. People need to stop mentioning this, because its not competitive
Land Speeder Storm Gimmicky speeder, can be effective if you go first, but usually gives 2 easy kill points
Ironclad DreadnoughtNot an amazing unit. How many major tournaments have you seen one with ironclads at the helm? Furisos are better.
Your venerable dreads are better, though more expensiveLets discuss units people actually use here cmon
Free stuff on Tacs The tac squad is garbage, usually only taken because scouts are even worse. Grey hunters are a spit in the face to the tactical marine (yes I am discussing all MEQ codexes being better then vanilla)
Vanguard Vets 10 times better in the BA codex, so not a big vanilla thing
Scout Bikes whats so incredible about scout bikers?
Land Raider Redeemers available in the BA and SW codexs at the same price, so not really special in the vanilla codex. Would be nice if vulkan made the flamestorms twin-linked, but alas not
A frickload of different HQ's --------- BA/SW have just as many incredible HQs at their disposal (Meph, Logan, ect) Not a unique thing to the Vanilla marines.

Cheaper Terminators (yes, 5 pts cheaper with the cyclone) Yes, because our Terminators can mix TH/SS with cyclones (DA) and get FnP. Or get 2 heavy weapons in a 5 man squad and pick up tank hunters
Cheaper Dreadnoughts Ok, agree
Cheaper and better Bikes agree as well
Cheaper Techmarines techmarines? Can we be serious for one second here?
Cheaper dakka preds (annialators are the same price) solid unit, so agree, but BT gets a cheaper annhialator (dunno about DA)
Cheaper Scouts with free sniper rifles Sniper rifles are garbage, the only reason SM would take sniper scouts is a backfield objective holder. I would much rather have a 5 man crusader squad with a Lascannon thank you
Cheaper Vindicators-------- BT gets POTMS Vindis, and BA gets fast Vindis. No argument here

What are you whining about?

Vanilla marines are the WORST MeQ codex now, when compared to DA/BT/BA/SW

First, I don't know how you think that a speeder gives 2KP. AFAIK each speeder is only 1KP if it is a single force choice.

Second, I noticed that you have to jump about as to who has the best whatever (sometimes BA, sometimes SW, etc.,). So while the Vanillia marines may not have the best all of the time neither do the other codices. In fact I wonder how many times the normal marines have the 2nd best of these selections.

Third, could you not use red for your replies? It's hard on the eyes and just looks ridiculous for a long set of answers.

Each codex has it's strength and solid builds. C:SM is no different. It has advantages over every single MEQ book and they have advantages (with their strengths) over it.

That said I'm out. You just want to whine and hear people agree with you.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:First, I don't know how you think that a speeder gives 2KP. AFAIK each speeder is only 1KP if it is a single force choice.

Second, I noticed that you have to jump about as to who has the best whatever (sometimes BA, sometimes SW, etc.,). So while the Vanillia marines may not have the best all of the time neither do the other codices. In fact I wonder how many times the normal marines have the 2nd best of these selections.

Third, could you not use red for your replies? It's hard on the eyes and just looks ridiculous for a long set of answers.

Storms are usually taken with 5 bp/ccw pfist scouts, and that is 2 easy KPs

I wasn't comparing them to all, one on one DA vs Nilla. Nilla has the advantage overall over DA. You'll find that almost every dex has something better in it, but DA suffer pretty much the same thing in almost every catagory much the same as Nilla.

Sniper rifles are garbage? They're a squad of lascannons against monsterous creatures for cheap plus they rend. I know with bs3 they might not be as good (bs4 but take up an elite slot with DA), but still.

For most of that I was listing things you can do, not necessarily what is the best or most competitive options. I play DA strictly so I have no clue how good most of the stuff in C:SM is, such as the Ironclads. I hear people swear by them in a pod though.

techmarines are meh I agree. I'd rather have terminators in a greenwing list or a dread.

Just to make note, green works better for edits, as it is much easier on the eyes.

Play a different book if you don't like vanilla anymore. There are still plenty of great units and builds in the SM dex. I still think the SM dex is the best that GW has ever made.

You have tons of options and ways to play vanilla MEQs. Lots of very competitive builds, too.

Vulkan is still top tier.
Khan lists kick ass.
Pedro lists.
Shooty marines are still very, very good.
Shrike lists can be brutal.
Ironclads are very good, 40Kenthusiast on these boards winds RTTs with his 6 Ironclad list.
Sternguard are tits-la-rue.
And the list goes on.

There are lots of options there for very tough armies. I love my Vanilla dex and still use it frequently. Try experimenting with new ideas and you may surprise yourself.

Ok answer this simple question= why do DA/BT get Typhoons for 75pts instead of 90, or Typhoons for 20pts instead of 30pts. Why can deathwing take army-wide 3++ with no balancing mechanic whatsoever.

And don't say to make up for rhinos and other elements of the army being more expensive because that's crap. 10-15pts cheaper may be subtle, but spread across a whole force org and its a huge difference. Here is an example: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/340138.page Vanilla marines are strong because you could take 1 or 2 solid TH/SS term squads, but a whole army supported by cheap typhoons? Plus fearless and FnP? Why play Vanilla marines anymore? (Null zone isn't that good)

What REGULAR SM have going for them. They are kinda related.


1) Salamander Lists. The ability to Twin link every meltagun and flamer is a bug deal. Plus all of your thunder hammers are master crafted. Melta/flamer speeders, combi-sternguard, TH/SS Terminators are some of the most competitive units from the SM book and Vulkan only makes them better.

2) Land Speeder Storm. First off it is a Fast Scoring Skimmer that can outflank. That alone makes it a very strong option for being able to get to objectives late game, (especially if you went 2nd). IF you go first, give it a Multi-melta and vaporize a tank while the PF on the scouts hops out and hits one or two more stationary tanks.

3) Scout Bikers. They Infiltrate, then get a 24" scout move, then a 12" move, and then a 6" assault. The should be Exactly where you want them first turn probably with a PF and beacon.

4) Drop Pod Assault. Regular Space marines are the ONLY marines who have capacity 12 drop pods.

Overall, it seems that an Alpha strike Drop Pod/Scouts Salamanders list is the best (ie not done by anyone else) for the regular space marines and it has been this way for a LONG time. It is just that the other books have risen in power making some of the "less competitive" Marine builds to be dropped.


The overall tones of your posts are very negative. The BT/DA lists that will come up will be mostly terminator heavy lists with land speeders. Those are not lists that are being "taken away and done better by someone else". Lists like that have NEVER been competitive in 5th edition, until now.

All Fearless Terminators is the Dark Angels's schtick if I recall conversations about last ed correctly. If I'm not mistaken Deathwing are supposed to be the best this side of the Grey Knights so it kinda makes sense...

2 letters for those who say Vanilla SM codex is now the worst: QQ

2 constructive words for those who say Vanilla SM codex is now the worst: Null Zone

BT can have fun with 5+ invos reroll successful saves ie 8/9 times it fails.

Offhand I would say the Vanilla list to beatdown BT would be 30 TH/SS termies + scouts with teleport homers & cammo cloaks (2+ cover if they go to ground) + 2 Librarians with nullzone or 1 Librarian + Vulcan.

Jeeeees-us, cry more or what? BT and DA have been long overdue an update, and this is probably as close to a codex release as they are going to get until 6th Ed rolls around. C:SM is one of, if not the first, codex to get updated whenever a new edition comes out so chill the feth out and let the ex-4th Ed codices have their time in the limelight.

Seriously, there's just no pleasing some people. BT/DA players have been bemoaning the fact that their 'dex is out of date and overcosted in comparison to the C:SM/SW/BA for a long time. A much-needed FAQ throws them back into the competitive arena and now people are crying that their C:SM 'dex isn't good enough.

Just learn to work with what you have; I always thought the reason specific Chapters got allocated their own codex was to make them DIFFERENT to C:SM, not a carbon copy of it.

L. Wrex

Even if C:SM is the worst of the SM, you still have to remember they have a top tier codex.

The only ones who have a right to complain are the xenos players with their 3rd ED rule sets.

scubasteve04 wrote:Ok answer this simple question= why do Vanilla SM get Missile Launchers for 0pts instead of 10, or Razorbacks for 40pts instead of 50pts. Why can Salamanders take army-wide twin-linked meltas and flamers with no balancing mechanic whatsoever.

And don't say to make up for Deathwing Terminators being fearless and other elements of the army being more expensive because that's crap. 10-15pts cheaper may be subtle, but spread across a whole force org and its a huge difference. Dark Angels are strong because you can build one army taking advantage of a single special character, but a whole army supported by cheap dreadnoughts? Plus combat tactics and more choices in the fast attack slot? Why play Dark Angels anymore? (Hellfire isn't that good)

See how balance works?

scubasteve04 wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:First, I don't know how you think that a speeder gives 2KP. AFAIK each speeder is only 1KP if it is a single force choice.

Second, I noticed that you have to jump about as to who has the best whatever (sometimes BA, sometimes SW, etc.,). So while the Vanillia marines may not have the best all of the time neither do the other codices. In fact I wonder how many times the normal marines have the 2nd best of these selections.

Third, could you not use red for your replies? It's hard on the eyes and just looks ridiculous for a long set of answers.

Storms are usually taken with 5 bp/ccw pfist scouts, and that is 2 easy KPs

So just like any other transport? Your some of your talk makes sense, but then you throw stupid stuff into it, making me pretty much ignore the rest of what you have to say.

C:SM are still fine, BT and DA are finally better (though still have major issues due to restrictivce FOC issues). I personally look foward towards seeing more than the Vanilla marines, and not having to remember old wordings on the same war gear. Who cares that the other books get a discount on certain upgrades and units, C:SM pay a premium on MLs and other common things over what BA or SW get, and people still take them and they are still good.

There is enough different that the points values (which are honestly small when you look at points and FOCs) won't really effect the balance much.

This has to be the worst troll try ever. I mean listing how 4 different books have it better over one book is silly. BT have better termies, Grey hunters are better..QQ QQ. Tyranids have better MCs and Dark Eldar have better skimmers. Hell Vampire Counts have blood knights...BLOOD KNIGHTS!

Sisters have better Faith powers than C:SM and they get Exorcists which are way better than Pred's, TFC and Devs.

Ohh wait, that comparison makes no sense. Almost like comparing each entry to every other entry in C:SM without considering the books as a whole.

Woot woot!!! Drop Pod Assault!!! It gives the Nilla Marines their true name: The Angels of Death!!!

scubasteve04 wrote:Vanilla marines are the WORST MeQ codex now, when compared to DA/BT/BA/SW

This, my friend, is a completely subjective observation. Not that you're not within your rights to say or believe so, but if you take into account that all the strengths and weaknesses from every MEQ codex like Hulksmash has said earlier, you will see what you're missing. I've played against plenty of other non-Vanilla MEQ lists, and have had my fair share of victories and defeats. But by your logic, it seems I should be losing more than winning, which I'm not.

If by "worst" you mean "least updated", then I can see you might have a point. But if by worst you mean "inferior in quality and playability", then you're sorely mistaken.

And I would agree with Luco that the DA codex is probably the "worst" in terms of overall efficiency. (Sorry, Luco, if you happen to play DA).

And to touch on some units that you seem to be underestimating.

1. LSS's have numerous uses and strengths, when the list's synergy plays well together. In objective games, they're the most effective means of getting to objectives with a Scoring unit in the entire codex. In KP games, they're best employed as Outflankers. Bottom-line, when used right, they can be crippling. I've won games with this unit before, and I've lost games to players using them as well.

2. Sniper Rifles have plenty of uses, and your quick dismissal of them only goes to show either your lack of experience using them or lack of strategic knowledge on using them. I admit that they're not meant to be in every list, but like I said about LSS's, when the list works well in synergy, Sniper Scouts are effective. Not trying to be condescending, but a good player will learn to make use of all his available units, rather than dismiss them based on whatever perceived ineffectiveness there is.

3. Techmarines are not garbage. And I'm being serious. So serious, in fact, I plan to play one in the next 'Ard Boyz tournament. Forget about Blessing of the Omnissiah and Bolstered Defenses being extra bonuses available to you, but for only 25 points, you have (effectively) a single Power Fist attack, 1 Flamer, and 1 Plasma Pistol (which doesn't 'Get Hot!'), ALL OF WHICH can fire in a single shooting phase. I doubt you will find any other upgrade in the codex that will get you that much for only 25 points.

4. "Tact Squads are garbage"? Seriously...? Sorry, but I'm not even going to acknowledge this comment with my own explanation.

5. What's with all the "Dreadnought Hate"? I've played Ironclad's and Venerable's numerous times before, and they've easily earned back their points (in most games). Furioso Librarians are legitimately better, but are also more expensive (which makes sense). Regular Furioso better? That's debatable....

I guess what I'm trying to say after all of that, I'm sure that while the other codices have their more recent updates, C:SM is still very competitive and still a highly respectable codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sexiest_hero wrote:This has to be the worst troll try ever. I mean listing how 4 different books have it better over one book is silly. BT have better termies, Grey hunters are better..QQ QQ. Tyranids have better MCs and Dark Eldar have better skimmers. Hell Vampire Counts have blood knights...BLOOD KNIGHTS!

QFT

And I'm doing a lot of this on the inside... ( )

scubasteve04 wrote:Ok answer this simple question= why do DA/BT get Typhoons for 75pts instead of 90, or Typhoons for 20pts instead of 30pts. Why can deathwing take army-wide 3++ with no balancing mechanic whatsoever.

And don't say to make up for rhinos and other elements of the army being more expensive because that's crap. 10-15pts cheaper may be subtle, but spread across a whole force org and its a huge difference. Here is an example: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/340138.page Vanilla marines are strong because you could take 1 or 2 solid TH/SS term squads, but a whole army supported by cheap typhoons? Plus fearless and FnP? Why play Vanilla marines anymore? (Null zone isn't that good)

Haha, dude, you are putting the cart in front of the horse. These books are OLD. They were written for 4th ed. Don't make a direct comparison because there isn't one. BT and DA were designed for a different game system. Now, they are competitive again due to a simple FAQ which makes some things cheaper than they should be, but it balances out.

If you are upset about it, then that is fine, but really you are overreacting. There is no need to get upset about it.

And yes, Vanilla Marines are good. I'll take Vanilla Marines against any other list in the game and feel totally fine about my chances of winning.

Reecius wrote:Play a different book if you don't like vanilla anymore. There are still plenty of great units and builds in the SM dex. I still think the SM dex is the best that GW has ever made.

You have tons of options and ways to play vanilla MEQs. Lots of very competitive builds, too.

Vulkan is still top tier.
Khan lists kick ass.
Pedro lists.
Shooty marines are still very, very good.
Shrike lists can be brutal.
Ironclads are very good, 40Kenthusiast on these boards winds RTTs with his 6 Ironclad list.
Sternguard are tits-la-rue.
And the list goes on.

There are lots of options there for very tough armies. I love my Vanilla dex and still use it frequently. Try experimenting with new ideas and you may surprise yourself.

Can I add Nullzone to the top of your list? All I have is army builder to verify what I am saying, but I can't find any access to null zone for BT or DA.

I speak for every Xeno player when I say you can go *expunged by the Inquisition*, and *erased by the Inquisition*, then go *now that's just not nice*, and when you actually lose more than 50% of the time, then you can complain about your codex being bad.

I think Scubasteve is arguing that the Vanilla Marines dex is the worst Marine dex, not the worst overall dex. In that case, he'd be right with the exception of certain specialty builds in certain matchups.

Our transports ( BT) are expensive, we have a mandatory 100 point investment every game, our troops dont come with grenades, we have 0 psychic defense, and we have to pass a -1 ld test to shoot behind an immobilized rhino, you can count on one hand the things we have going for us over other codexes which is what every codex should have.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:I think Scubasteve is arguing that the Vanilla Marines dex is the worst Marine dex, not the worst overall dex. In that case, he'd be right with the exception of certain specialty builds in certain matchups.

I do know that, and agree with him somewhat, but it's the principle of the complaining to begin with. It's like complain about getting crab for dinner when you wanted lobster.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:I think Scubasteve is arguing that the Vanilla Marines dex is the worst Marine dex, not the worst overall dex. In that case, he'd be right with the exception of certain specialty builds in certain matchups.

I fail to see how this supports his argument, Nuggz. If (for some reason) C:SM is most effective in "certain match ups", (as opposed to other MEQ codices) as you put it, that would prove that C:SM is not the worst amongst the MEQ codices.

And honestly, I think Scubasteve has a lot more explaining to do if he's trying to convince people that he's right.