Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Frazzled wrote:Jeez no wonder democracies don't survive.

Well, now embodied with the Dogma/Warboss Tzoo standard of democracy, I look forward to the mass culling of opposition members. I for one welcome our new "democratic" overlords, and am sure that once the correct purges have been carried out, all will be right in the world. Hail Our New Enlightened Leaders!

I'd ask if you're aware that the actual definition of democracy describes the formation of governments and not how they function, but you've clearly demonstrated that this isn't true already, so it'd be, much like a broken pencil, pointless.

Moving on, have you ever hugged your mother/daughter? Why, you filthy pervert!

So if abandoning your duties is ok Tzoo, why are you griping about the Republicans?

You've got a backassward definition of 'abandoning their duties' if you're going to apply it to thwarting a bill that feths over a massive number of people, as well as the state itself.

Bookwrack wrote: You've got a backassward definition of 'abandoning their duties' if you're going to apply it to thwarting a bill that feths over a massive number of people, as well as the state itself.

Exactly. If they stayed they would have been abandoning their duties. They were fighting it the bets way they could. If they stayed, how could they have possibly kept this thing from passing anyways?

Frazzled wrote:So if abandoning your duties is ok Tzoo, why are you griping about the Republicans?

I don't think abandoning your duties is okay, but unlike you, I don't see staying out of state with the intent of making the republicans be unable to pass a bill that feths the unions as abandoning your duties.

Bookwrack wrote: You've got a backassward definition of 'abandoning their duties' if you're going to apply it to thwarting a bill that feths over a massive number of people, as well as the state itself.

Actually, by not doing the bill it feths over a massive number of people, all the citizens who have to pay for these budgets.
So again, its all depending on what YOU interpret as the true and just cause. Man I can hear the marching anthems getting louder.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Scythican wrote:

Bookwrack wrote: You've got a backassward definition of 'abandoning their duties' if you're going to apply it to thwarting a bill that feths over a massive number of people, as well as the state itself.

Exactly. If they stayed they would have been abandoning their duties. They were fighting it the bets way they could. If they stayed, how could they have possibly kept this thing from passing anyways?

I see now. My cause is just therefore the ends justify the means. Now I understand who I am talking to.

So...any chance of agreeing to disagree and giving a crap about the teachers rather than how we would like to define how democracy works and/or doesn't? Either the law was broken or it wasn't, wishing or thinking how the law is...well doesn't matter right now. If a state doesn't want their legislators running off perhaps they should, I dunno pass some law about it? Ah the wonders of Democracy.

Sometimes this board amuses me with how well it really parallels society so well. People would rather rant back and forth at each other pointlessly than have a discussion and I'm sorry this left being a discussion once the Nazi's joined the party. That's pretty much the nuclear bomb equivalent on the Internet.

I know society goes in trends but I am really hoping the trend of having a discussion to actually resolve some problems comes back before its to late to do something about all the really serious issues facing this country.

Frazzled wrote:

Bookwrack wrote: You've got a backassward definition of 'abandoning their duties' if you're going to apply it to thwarting a bill that feths over a massive number of people, as well as the state itself.

Actually, by not doing the bill it feths over a massive number of people, all the citizens who have to pay for these budgets.
So again, its all depending on what YOU interpret as the true and just cause. Man I can hear the marching anthems getting louder.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Scythican wrote:

Bookwrack wrote: You've got a backassward definition of 'abandoning their duties' if you're going to apply it to thwarting a bill that feths over a massive number of people, as well as the state itself.

Exactly. If they stayed they would have been abandoning their duties. They were fighting it the bets way they could. If they stayed, how could they have possibly kept this thing from passing anyways?

I see now. My cause is just therefore the ends justify the means. Now I understand who I am talking to.

Honestly if I knew of a better alternative than running to another state, I would fully approve of it. I really honestly do not know what could have been done to prevent this from passing like it did.

Nazi video, I see we are getting into ridiculous hyperbole now.

Melissia wrote:This reminds me of Texas legislature, which does its best to make sure that Democrats don't take any more seats by drawing ridiculous lines on maps so that "democratic" areas are bundled into fewer representative zones and maximizing the amount of zones that repugs get.

You know, politics as usual, IE republicans not giving a gak about democracy or the future of their nation and state, they don't care about their people, just about staying in power.

It's Elbridge Gerry's fault.

vonjankmon wrote:So...any chance of agreeing to disagree and giving a crap about the teachers rather than how we would like to define how democracy works and/or doesn't? Either the law was broken or it wasn't, wishing or thinking how the law is...well doesn't matter right now. If a state doesn't want their legislators running off perhaps they should, I dunno pass some law about it? Ah the wonders of Democracy.

They did. (well, sorta)

See also here.

The reason they haven't been brought back is because 1) they're outside the jurisdiction of Wisconsin troops and 2) they've been hiding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Scythican wrote:Honestly if I knew of a better alternative than running to another state, I would fully approve of it. I really honestly do not know what could have been done to prevent this from passing like it did.

Are the Republicans, who won a majority in the Wisconsin House and Senate and the Governorship, entitled to legislative victories that Democrats oppose?

Lord Scythican wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Bookwrack wrote: You've got a backassward definition of 'abandoning their duties' if you're going to apply it to thwarting a bill that feths over a massive number of people, as well as the state itself.

Actually, by not doing the bill it feths over a massive number of people, all the citizens who have to pay for these budgets.
So again, its all depending on what YOU interpret as the true and just cause. Man I can hear the marching anthems getting louder.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Scythican wrote:

Bookwrack wrote: You've got a backassward definition of 'abandoning their duties' if you're going to apply it to thwarting a bill that feths over a massive number of people, as well as the state itself.

Exactly. If they stayed they would have been abandoning their duties. They were fighting it the bets way they could. If they stayed, how could they have possibly kept this thing from passing anyways?

I see now. My cause is just therefore the ends justify the means. Now I understand who I am talking to.

Honestly if I knew of a better alternative than running to another state, I would fully approve of it. I really honestly do not know what could have been done to prevent this from passing like it did.

You can't think of a better alternatvie? How about vote for more elected officials who think the way you do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stormrider wrote:

Melissia wrote:This reminds me of Texas legislature, which does its best to make sure that Democrats don't take any more seats by drawing ridiculous lines on maps so that "democratic" areas are bundled into fewer representative zones and maximizing the amount of zones that repugs get.

You know, politics as usual, IE republicans not giving a gak about democracy or the future of their nation and state, they don't care about their people, just about staying in power.

It's Elbridge Gerry's fault.

Sounds like Illinois to me.

Democracy without compromise is nothing more than tyranny of the majority.

Without compromise, democracy simply cannot work.

Well you have to decide some way, if you only went with total consensus you'd get even less done than we do now in this country.

How scary would that be?

Frazzled wrote:
You can't think of a better alternatvie? How about vote for more elected officials who think the way you do?

You mean I can leave my state and vote for different officials in another state?

EDIT: Sorry about that Frazzled. You didn't deserve a smartass comment. I took out half of it, but it still stands. My vote can't affect another states representative outcome and it would not change what is going on in WI right now. People like me have been trying for years to change politics, but the majority is still in the red shirt or blue shirt mentality.

Frazzled wrote:

Bookwrack wrote: You've got a backassward definition of 'abandoning their duties' if you're going to apply it to thwarting a bill that feths over a massive number of people, as well as the state itself.

Actually, by not doing the bill it feths over a massive number of people, all the citizens who have to pay for these budgets.
So again, its all depending on what YOU interpret as the true and just cause. Man I can hear the marching anthems getting louder.

The unions agreed to all of the financial aspects of the budget bill. The only thing that they were fighting was the elimination of collective bargaining. This was never about the budget, Frazzled, and it's beneath you to act like it was.

I ask, who is at the bargaining table when these government union's CBA's expire? Union reps, governmental represenatives and no citizens. So the people that pay the lion's share of the benefits costs get absolutely zero say in how much benefits these unions get. That sounds fair.

Melissia wrote:Democracy without compromise is nothing more than tyranny of the majority.

Without compromise, democracy simply cannot work.

Too much politics, not enough governance.

At least it seems that way to me, currently. Everyone is too busy trying to score points rather than come up with the complex solutions required for our society's ails.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Everyone is too busy trying to score points rather than come up with the complex solutions required for our society's ails.

And the best way to score points seems to be a hardline, no-compromise, feth-the-opposition attitude. Ugh.

Stormrider wrote:I ask, who is at the bargaining table when these government union's CBA's expire? Union reps, governmental represenatives and no citizens. So the people that pay the lion's share of the benefits costs get absolutely zero say in how much benefits these unions get. That sounds fair.

The citizens are represented by the government, who in turn are represented by their representatives, much like how the union members are represented by their reps. It's all good.

Melissia wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Everyone is too busy trying to score points rather than come up with the complex solutions required for our society's ails.

And the best way to score points seems to be a hardline, no-compromise, feth-the-opposition attitude. Ugh.

I guess that's what happens when one side can't agree with the other on anything. More moderates please.

Democracy has nothing to do with compromise, it has to do with how the people interact with the government. If compromise was the goal than setting up a system that pits people against each other would have been a better idea but as it is the system isn't built on trust. If it was we wouldn't have a separation of powers.

More moderates please? sorry they got voted out and replaced by Tea party members. Hard to be moderate with the Rino brand waiting to end your career.

Frazzled wrote:

Bookwrack wrote: You've got a backassward definition of 'abandoning their duties' if you're going to apply it to thwarting a bill that feths over a massive number of people, as well as the state itself.

Actually, by not doing the bill it feths over a massive number of people, all the citizens who have to pay for these budgets.

No it doesn't, and the fact you're claiming it does shows you're either trolling, or completely ignorant of the actual topic. Talk about sleeping through class... The fact you keep hearing marching anthems just shows how deep under you've gone. The dreaded 'growing budget shortfall' is mostly fabricated, inflated by things like assuming that EVERY spending initiative that goes before the house gets passed.

Second is that every item EXCEPT losing collective bargaining was agreed to, but Walker was completely unwilling to compromise. The whole point was to cram through the (unneeded) budget cuts, and since raising taxes has been forbidden, the only way localities have to deal with the budget shortfall is to fire people - and with collective bargaining right stripped away, the workers who are being put under the gun have no way to respond to it. I know a financial officer for a Wisconsin community college who just got to see their budget numbers for next year - they're going to have fire 1/3 of their teachers, and all non-teachers are going to have to take a 20% pay cut.

So yes, passing the bills hurts a HUGE number of people. Not passing it would have had no where near the consequences, because most of the consequences have been made up! Wake up Frazz. Stop sleeping and pay attention. This is not an issue where people enacting the bill are bad people because they disagree with me, it's because they're doing gak that is going to hurt a lot of people and mess up an entire state, and the consequences of NOT doing that gak are nothing at all!

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Melissia wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Everyone is too busy trying to score points rather than come up with the complex solutions required for our society's ails.

And the best way to score points seems to be a hardline, no-compromise, feth-the-opposition attitude. Ugh.

I guess that's what happens when one side can't agree with the other on anything. More moderates please.

Get rid of the tea party and we might see some.

Obama's trying to be a moderate sometimes, at least, which is more than I can say for the rest of his party.

Unfortunately, as the whole situation in Wisconsin demonstrates, the Republican side doesn't give a feth about moderates, it's their way or nothing. The democrat counter bill was to agree to everything in the republican one, save for the loss of collective bargaining, but nope that was too extreme for them, I guess. Gotta guarantee that when you start firing teachers and comptrollers they don't have anyway resisting.

You're right. Only Republicans have radicals.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-best-protest-signs-at-the-wisconsin-capitol

How dare you mock this sign, Frazzled:

Frazzled wrote:You're right. Only Republicans have radicals.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-best-protest-signs-at-the-wisconsin-capitol

Indeed.

Frazzled wrote:You're right. Only Republicans have radicals.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-best-protest-signs-at-the-wisconsin-capitol

This has not been said, or implied. However, I will say that the tea-party membership/leadership seem quite entrenched in their views and appear not to budge on many things. Although, I would not say that this has never happened before with dems either. I'd rather not say "this side is worse than the other", I'd much rather say people tend to be far too partisan in politics these days instead.

People can be too extreme on both sides, especially with hyperbole. Kinda like posting a nazi video on a forum.

Edit: and for real? most of these signs are just silly, I wouldn't call any of these RADICAL by any stretch of the imagination. Some of them may be in bad taste, but radical? ffs