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BearersOfSalvation wrote:The claim that the US is 'right leaning' really just boils down to 'the US is different than Europe'
No it doesn't. I define right-wing as leaning towards free market capitalism and similar economic dieals, while left wing is leaning towards socialism and similar economic ideals.
We're VERY strongly right-wing in that definition. I very much doubt that a REAL socialist could get elected to congress here, nevermind the president.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote:Not so much that, as much as we are already a very right-wing leaning nation to begin with, so they appear more mainstream.
The claim that the US is 'right leaning' really just boils down to 'the US is different than Europe', ...
There is a substantial amount of social science research which indicates that Europeans generally are more collectivist/socially minded, and Americans are more individualistic.
In other words, the US is different to Europe in the key psychological factor that enables socialism.
While I agree that the US is considerably to the right wing, Bernie Sanders goes to show that the US is a diverse place, and it's best not to generalise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/21 04:33:07
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Vermont gets the coolest Senators. They have Bernie and they have Leahy, who's a big fan of Batman, and has a minor role in The Dark Knight, as the old guy who stands up to the Joker at the party.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Vermont gets the coolest Senators. They have Bernie and they have Leahy, who's a big fan of Batman, and has a minor role in The Dark Knight, as the old guy who stands up to the Joker at the party.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv that guy!
(Other than his voting to ban human cloning, Sanders has a most excellent voting record!)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/21 11:45:45
BearersOfSalvation wrote:The claim that the US is 'right leaning' really just boils down to 'the US is different than Europe'
No it doesn't. I define right-wing as leaning towards free market capitalism and similar economic dieals, while left wing is leaning towards socialism and similar economic ideals.
So issues like abortion, immigration, free speech, racial discrimination, crime and punishment, and the like don't matter at all? That is, you would seriously classify someone who wants to deport all the illegal aliens, ban abortion, ban the Koran and any 'Muslim Garb', use the death penalty for most felonies, but who did favor a national health care system (like the republicans pushed for in the 90s until they actually got in office) as a left winger? It doesn't seem like it's a very useful term if that's the case. It gets even weirder when you realize that funding the government more by taxing the middle class or upper class isn't a 'free market versus socialist' issue, nor is funding by taxes versus borrowing, nor funding controversial artistic programs, nor how large to make the military, nor is whether to go to war to protect economic interests, yet all of these are major economic points that people use to pick one party over the other in the US.
We're VERY strongly right-wing in that definition. I very much doubt that a REAL socialist could get elected to congress here, nevermind the president.
I very much doubt that a REAL socialist could get elected to the equivalent of US president in any Western European country (or Australia, Japan, or Canada, which are typically the only additional countries considered in these comparisons). Real socialists advocate either direct worker ownership of the means of production or direct state ownership of the means of production, but I'm not aware of any Western European countries nationalizing additional industries lately, in fact they've done a lot of privatizing, and as far as I know converting companies to worker ownership has never really taken off. Oddball third-party candidates have an easier time getting elected in European parliaments, while the two-party system has had a tight lock on things since the 1950s (only 6 representatives, 2 senators, and no presidents have been elected from outside the big two), so that part doesn't make for a good comparison.
The US, Europe, and the handful of other countries used in these comparisons all run hybrid economic systems. They incorporate things that used to be radical socialist planks like workman's compensation, limited child labor, mandatory overtime pay, unemployment insurance, state provided food for the poor, occupational health and safety laws, state-run retirement plans, protection and recognition of labor unions, minimum wage, and state aid for collecting unpaid wages. But at the same time, they embrace major free market tenants like privately-owned businesses in most areas, which runs counter to the socialist philosophy (where everything should be owned either by the state or the workers at that business), and major protectionist capitalist philosophies like state barriers to new businesses in certain markets. It is not sensible to call any of these highly hybridized economies 'very far' towards full socialism or full free market capitalism, none of them are anywhere near what theory would say they 'should' be.
sebster wrote:Only if someone were to presume Europe to be some kind of mono-culture with a single government, which would be wrong. Or if they were to ignore all the other developed, democratic countries that also stay well to the left of the US politically.
Oh look, it's sebster. Can you justify your "Only if someone were to presume Europe to be some kind of mono-culture with a single government", or is it just condescending nonsense that you made up in hopes that I wouldn't call you on it? Specifically, what words exactly jusfity your claim that I presume that Europe is a mono-culture at all, or that it only has one government?
If you can't justify your false claim about me, I'll take your inability or refusal to do so as a concession that I am completely right on all matters anytime and anywhere.
BearersOfSalvation wrote:So issues like abortion, immigration, free speech, racial discrimination, crime and punishment, and the like don't matter at all?
Now that's a hideously loaded question if I've ever seen one.
And I've seen countless on this forum.
Short answer: not when it comes to determining if someone is left or right wing for me.
Long answer: There are small aspects of each of these which involve economic positions, sure. But most of the time, these are social issues as opposed to economic. Social issues are typically divided between authoritarian and liberal, IE, someone takes a more liberal stance on abortion believes that it should be legal, for example, while someone taking a more authoritarian position on free speech wants to have limits on it of some sort. A more right wing economic stance on abortion would be "government shouldn't pay for abortion as it is an optional procedure" (typically free market advocates do not like government intervention), while a more left-wing economic stance on freedom of speech is more "government should regulate [or even control] the nation's news agencies so they focus more on delivering news than entertainment", to give examples.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
biccat wrote:
That was Switzerland, and they banned Minarets on Mosques because they blocked people's views of the mountains.
Fran banned the hijab (veil).
Close. They banned any overt religious trappings. Which would presumably include any overt Christian symbols as well.
Also, the hijab is not necessarily a veil, it is generally used to refer to a head covering or scarf. Niqab (lower veil) and burqa (full veil) are usually used to refer to veils.
What's up with people confusing Sweden and Switzerland all the time? I've been called Swiss more times than I've been called Swedish on these forums...
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:What's up with people confusing Sweden and Switzerland all the time? I've been called Swiss more times than I've been called Swedish on these forums...
Trust me, it could've been worse. they could have called you a Texan....
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"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC
AlmightyWalrus wrote:What's up with people confusing Sweden and Switzerland all the time? I've been called Swiss more times than I've been called Swedish on these forums...
As long as they don't call you late for dinner!
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alarmingrick wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:What's up with people confusing Sweden and Switzerland all the time? I've been called Swiss more times than I've been called Swedish on these forums...
Trust me, it could've been worse. they could have called you a Texan....
Welcome to Oklahoma. Our streets are straight!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/04/22 13:39:30
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biccat wrote:
Close. They banned any overt religious trappings. Which would presumably include any overt Christian symbols as well.
My mistake, though given France's secular nature I'm a bit apprehensive about saying the law is somehow universal.
biccat wrote:
Also, the hijab is not necessarily a veil, it is generally used to refer to a head covering or scarf. Niqab (lower veil) and burqa (full veil) are usually used to refer to veils.
No, but in general "hijab" refers to the minimal facial covering required of women in more conservative Muslim sects. Etymologically it draws from the Qu'ranic concept of modesty.
You are right though, at least about Niqab, which literally refers to a facial covering. Burqa, however, is a word for body covering with facial concealment attached.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
biccat wrote:Close. They banned any overt religious trappings. Which would presumably include any overt Christian symbols as well.
My mistake, though given France's secular nature I'm a bit apprehensive about saying the law is somehow universal.
OK, I take that back, there are two laws in question. The first prevented religious trappings in schools which is what I thought the whole controversy was about. It appears that there's a second law that also bans any face coverings (including a balaclava, not to be confused with baklava). Although it's not specifically targetted towards Islamic dress, it's clear that was the intent.
Sorry.
dogma wrote:
biccat wrote:Also, the hijab is not necessarily a veil, it is generally used to refer to a head covering or scarf. Niqab (lower veil) and burqa (full veil) are usually used to refer to veils.
No, but in general "hijab" refers to the minimal facial covering required of women in more conservative Muslim sects. Etymologically it draws from the Qu'ranic concept of modesty.
You are right though, at least about Niqab, which literally refers to a facial covering. Burqa, however, is a word for body covering with facial concealment attached.
Hijab doesn't mean face covering, it generally relates to the code of modesty for dress, and means "covering." A face veil might be part of the hijab, but isn't a hijab.
The Burqa is the term people use when they're talking about a face veil, but yes, it does mean a full body veil that doesn't allow the rest of the body to be seen.
biccat wrote:
Hijab doesn't mean face covering, it generally relates to the code of modesty for dress, and means "covering." A face veil might be part of the hijab, but isn't a hijab.
In MSA hijab refers to the minimal female face covering, and general Muslim modesty.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
biccat wrote:Hijab doesn't mean face covering, it generally relates to the code of modesty for dress, and means "covering." A face veil might be part of the hijab, but isn't a hijab.
In MSA hijab refers to the minimal female face covering, and general Muslim modesty.
I'm not sure what "MSA" means in this context. But most Muslims wouldn't call a face scarf a hijab. It's like the difference between "shirt" and "clothing." You could say that a Polo is "clothing," but it would be more specific to call it a "shirt."
biccat wrote:
I'm not sure what "MSA" means in this context.
Modern Standard Arabic.
biccat wrote:
But most Muslims wouldn't call a face scarf a hijab. It's like the difference between "shirt" and "clothing." You could say that a Polo is "clothing," but it would be more specific to call it a "shirt."
I disagree completely. You're applying neutral gender standards that don't generally exist in colloquial MSA.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Am I supposed to consider the BBC authoritative? Bernard Lewis himself would be upset by that.
Anyway, of course they are, my point was never that "niqab" does not mean "scarf covering the face" my point was that hijab means "minimal acceptable female clothing" which often entails a facial scarf.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
On the original topic, I saw a tabloid at the supermarket today with a headline something like "President Scared of What 'The Donald' Has Uncovered" (re: birth cert).
I laughed out loud.
Kilkrazy wrote:
biccat wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:
BearersOfSalvation wrote:...ban the Koran and any 'Muslim Garb'...
Well, France has banned the Burqua, or Hijab. I forget.And didn't Sweden prohibit anyone to build more mosques?
That was Switzerland, and they banned Minarets on Mosques because they blocked people's views of the mountains.
Unlike church towers and high rise office blocks.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:What's up with people confusing Sweden and Switzerland all the time? I've been called Swiss more times than I've been called Swedish on these forums...
Must be bad geography skills. A friend of mine was just doing this at Adepticon! We were talking about the Swedes who came over and how good they were, and he was saying "yeah, I got beat by a guy from there", and I had to point out that the guy he played lives in Switzerland.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/04/22 18:18:30
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More2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:What's up with people confusing Sweden and Switzerland all the time? I've been called Swiss more times than I've been called Swedish on these forums...
Sorry mate, I know where Sweden and Switzerland are (geographically). I knew that a European country that started with 'S' had passed this law, and that it waan't Spain.
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
