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I say "by and large" as it is (to my understanding) a fundimental tenant of the Christian faith that the refusal to accept Jesus and follow Christian doctrine leads to "damnation".
Now,while some profess that "they've never met a Christian that says/believes this",do they deny the existance of a "hell" to punish the "sinner" in their own belife system?
Also...If it seems I'm "singling Christianity out" it's not intentional..

thedude wrote:In other words, if you believe in heaven, do you believe that the aeithist will be sitting beside you there in 100 years?

If I go to heaven, then yes; he might not be sitting beside me (who knows, might be standing room only) but I certainly believe that it's possible.

Again, if you don't believe in it, so what?

"Sinner, you're a dirty cheating liar and going to Shangra La!"

Frazzled: "Shangra La doesn't exist. Now get out of my way meat bag. I have more sinning to do."

thedude wrote:In other words, if you believe in heaven, do you believe that the aeithist will be sitting beside you there in 100 years?

Why does it matter? Are you insulted or harmed in some other way by other people's beliefs?

thedude wrote:In other words, if you believe in heaven, do you believe that the aeithist will be sitting beside you there in 100 years?

Maybe, not really thought about it. I would personally think that you would only go to Hell if you did something to deserve going to hell for, and not believe in God shouldn't mean you go to hell. Its not unreasonable to not believe in something there is no proof for, obviously i don't know if there is a Heaven or Hell, what there like or how its decided which one you go to.

Samus, i think you've missed the point. If Heaven is real, i don't think it would be just wondering around aimlessly for all eternity, it would be Heaven.....IF it exists, who knows what its like, but i really doubt it would be like that, otherwise you wouldn't want to go.

biccat wrote:

thedude wrote:In other words, if you believe in heaven, do you believe that the aeithist will be sitting beside you there in 100 years?

Why does it matter? Are you insulted or harmed in some other way by other people's beliefs?

But isn't this sort of what the other side of the coin is saying? Saying an atheist is going to hell for not believing in god is similar to saying heaven in a fairy tale for those scared of the dark. I am sure there is some one on both sides that would find one or the other insulting.

Frazzled wrote:Again, if you don't believe in it, so what?

"Sinner, you're a dirty cheating liar and going to Shangra La!"

Frazzled: "Shangra La doesn't exist. Now get out of my way meat bag. I have more sinning to do."

...It's not that it affects me (really)...
I'm simply saying that when a large organized religion makes broad sweeping comments concerning those who choose not to follow their doctrines they shouldn't be "offended" when some of those people respond with " Your belief is a fairy tale".

I do feel that what Hawkins said was meant as a jab at religious people. I also think any religious person telling someone they were going to hell for not believing in a certain religion is a D-bag. After all, every group has an A-hole or two that make the rest look bad.

Pretty much any religious person I know would usually avoid directly discussing non believers and hell. Put yourself in their shoes, if you truly believed someone would go to hell for not believing, how would you discuss it without coming across as judgmental or douchey?

FITZZ wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Again, if you don't believe in it, so what?

"Sinner, you're a dirty cheating liar and going to Shangra La!"

Frazzled: "Shangra La doesn't exist. Now get out of my way meat bag. I have more sinning to do."

...It's not that it affects me (really)...
I'm simply saying that when a large organized religion makes broad sweeping comments concerning those who choose not to follow their doctrines they shouldn't be "offended" when some of those people respond with " Your belief is a fairy tale".

+1

Pretty much what I was trying to say as well.

FITZZ wrote: I say "by and large" as it is (to my understanding) a fundimental tenant of the Christian faith that the refusal to accept Jesus and follow Christian doctrine leads to "damnation".
Now,while some profess that "they've never met a Christian that says/believes this",do they deny the existance of a "hell" to punish the "sinner" in their own belife system?
Also...If it seems I'm "singling Christianity out" it's not intentional..

I did miss the 'by and large' when i first wrote my post, should probably read things twice before making rash statements myself
But still, there are a lot of generic comments around, plenty are probably made by the religious side. And the more i think about what i'm typing, the more i think i'm trying to pass of my own views as all other Christians. As i said at some point, i'm probably a rubbish Christian, but the most important part for me, is that i believe in God, maybe i'm not even really Christian at all, i'm just religious, or a believer or something. Like i said in my last (think it was my last, i've posted too much on this thread) post in my eyes (not necessarily the eyes of any other Christians) not believing in God isn't a sin... In the past it was forced upon you to believe in some/most areas and periods of history, but now, in the age of science, God is one of the few things that can't be physically proved, so its not that hard to understand why people doubt God's existence, so in my eyes (and in my view of God) this shouldn't be a sin.

One view i remember reading or seeing/hearing (think it was on Radio once..) from a priest, was that Hell isn't actually a place as such, (he might have said Heaven isn't either) its purely being disconnected from God. I think he also said that atheists could still have the chance to avoid this, but essentially Hell is a state of mind. But then again, thats just a Christian view, i'm sure most Athiests don't wake up every morning thinking they are in Hell because they don't believe in God.

Lord Scythican wrote:

biccat wrote:

thedude wrote:In other words, if you believe in heaven, do you believe that the aeithist will be sitting beside you there in 100 years?

Why does it matter? Are you insulted or harmed in some other way by other people's beliefs?

But isn't this sort of what the other side of the coin is saying? Saying an atheist is going to hell for not believing in god is similar to saying heaven in a fairy tale for those scared of the dark. I am sure there is some one on both sides that would find one or the other insulting.

I honestly don't see the connection between the two. Saying someone is going to hell for not believing in god doesn't question the non-believer's intelligence or rationality. It doesn't associate their belief with a negative character trait.

But if you say heaven is a "fairy tale for those scared of the dark" you're attacking the intelligence and rationality of believers.

A better analogy would be "only fools refuse to believe in God".

Maybe, not really thought about it. I would personally think that you would only go to Hell if you did something to deserve going to hell for, and not believe in God shouldn't mean you go to hell. Its not unreasonable to not believe in something there is no proof for, obviously i don't know if there is a Heaven or Hell, what there like or how its decided which one you go to.

Well the bible is pretty clear that if you do not hold the tenants of God (old testement) or believe in Jesus (new testement) then you are going to hell.

You may be cherry picking a bit here to say you may only believe somone will go to hell if they do something really bad, as that is counter to the book and teachings you are basing your beliefs on.

@biccat, i think you missed my point...i am simply trying to illustrate that the christian faith (as I understand it) believes the same thing stated by SH in his comment, just on the other side of the coin.

Graveyman wrote:Pretty much any religious person I know would usually avoid directly discussing non believers and hell. Put yourself in their shoes, if you truly believed someone would go to hell for not believing, how would you discuss it without coming across as judgmental or douchey?

That's the basis for "evangelicals." They sincerely believe that those who don't believe in Christianity are going to hell, and therefore they should make every effort to convince you in order to save your soul.

As an Evil Conservative, I think people should be responsible for themselves, so I think these evangelicals are wrongheaded.

thedude wrote:

Maybe, not really thought about it. I would personally think that you would only go to Hell if you did something to deserve going to hell for, and not believe in God shouldn't mean you go to hell. Its not unreasonable to not believe in something there is no proof for, obviously i don't know if there is a Heaven or Hell, what there like or how its decided which one you go to.

Well the bible is pretty clear that if you do not hold the tenants of God (old testement) or believe in Jesus (new testement) then you are going to hell.

You may be cherry picking a bit here to say you may only believe somone will go to hell if they do something really bad, as that is counter to the book and teachings you are basing your beliefs on.

@biccat, i think you missed my point...i am simply trying to illustrate that the christian faith (as I understand it) believes the same thing stated by SH in his comment, just on the other side of the coin.

I have said i'm not really a proper Christian... I believe in God, and have gone (and probably will go when back in Norwich in summer) to Church (Catholic). And i may not follow all their teachings, and they could tell me i'm not a Christian. But the Bible is not the word of God, and i think although maybe contradictory to what it should be, is actually there to interpret, which really should be done yourself.

I don't agree with forcing any view upon anyone, wether that be on people who are in a different group (Religious people forcing their views on atheist) or even in the same group (Christians forcing Christians to believe and follow everything they say)

thedude wrote:@biccat, i think you missed my point...i am simply trying to illustrate that the christian faith (as I understand it) believes the same thing stated by SH in his comment, just on the other side of the coin.

That atheism is for those who believe in fairy tales or are afraid of the dark?

I don't see it.

If someone has a secret club and won't let me join, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Or if they have an imaginary friend and refuse to introduce me to him, I don't care.

Graveyman wrote:I do feel that what Hawkins said was meant as a jab at religious people. I also think any religious person telling someone they were going to hell for not believing in a certain religion is a D-bag. After all, every group has an A-hole or two that make the rest look bad.

Pretty much any religious person I know would usually avoid directly discussing non believers and hell. Put yourself in their shoes, if you truly believed someone would go to hell for not believing, how would you discuss it without coming across as judgmental or douchey?

That is probably the best way to approach the situation. Maybe Hawking wasn't approached that way? People tend to offend when they have been offended.

I can only shake my head at the strangeness of it all. There is always a-holes on both sides like you said. The ones that want to live and let live always have their opinions clouded when they are eventually offended.

Here is one for you all. Like Graveyman said, most religious people try to avoid the unpleasant conversation of non-believers going to hell. It is a touchy subject especially for those who do not want to be judgmental. Heck I have talked to people before who stressed, if you are not a Christian you are going to Hell. I always counter with Mother Theresa. She wasn't a Christian, do you think she is going to hell?

I believe you can be a good person and not be Christian at the same time. I don't think this should automatically make the person go to hell, but a lot of people do. This tends to make someone who is not a Christian distance themselves even more from religion.

Honestly I hope the good people who are not necessary Christians and least get to go someplace nice in the afterlife. Religion is confusing and sometimes it feels like hit or miss. How am I able to say who is right or wrong? Can I just be a good person and believe in that?

Lord Scythican wrote:Heck I have talked to people before who stressed, if you are not a Christian you are going to Hell. I always counter with Mother Theresa. She wasn't a Christian, do you think she is going to hell?

I don't think this is a good argument.

Lord Scythican wrote:

Graveyman wrote:I do feel that what Hawkins said was meant as a jab at religious people. I also think any religious person telling someone they were going to hell for not believing in a certain religion is a D-bag. After all, every group has an A-hole or two that make the rest look bad.

Pretty much any religious person I know would usually avoid directly discussing non believers and hell. Put yourself in their shoes, if you truly believed someone would go to hell for not believing, how would you discuss it without coming across as judgmental or douchey?

That is probably the best way to approach the situation. Maybe Hawking wasn't approached that way? People tend to offend when they have been offended.

I can only shake my head at the strangeness of it all. There is always a-holes on both sides like you said. The ones that want to live and let live always have their opinions clouded when they are eventually offended.

Here is one for you all. Like Graveyman said, most religious people try to avoid the unpleasant conversation of non-believers going to hell. It is a touchy subject especially for those who do not want to be judgmental. Heck I have talked to people before who stressed, if you are not a Christian you are going to Hell. I always counter with Mother Theresa. She wasn't a Christian, do you think she is going to hell?

I believe you can be a good person and not be Christian at the same time. I don't think this should automatically make the person go to hell, but a lot of people do. This tends to make someone who is not a Christian distance themselves even more from religion.

Honestly I hope the good people who are not necessary Christians and least get to go someplace nice in the afterlife. Religion is confusing and sometimes it feels like hit or miss. How am I able to say who is right or wrong? Can I just be a good person and believe in that?

Yes, that is what i think as well as being religious and believing in God. There is no reason why you can't lead a good life without believing in God. On the same token, religious people can lead a bad life and there are examples of people 'killing in Gods name' (for a start, isn't that one of the terrorists reasons?) People who have claimed to have been told my God or an Angel etc to kill (I hope not successfully....)

I really should note that for the most part (so long as it doesn't affect politics/safety/my life) I have no real problem with religion.
If someone chooses to "Believe" and it helps them get through the day...power to them.

biccat wrote:
I honestly don't see the connection between the two. Saying someone is going to hell for not believing in god doesn't question the non-believer's intelligence or rationality. It doesn't associate their belief with a negative character trait.

But if you say heaven is a "fairy tale for those scared of the dark" you're attacking the intelligence and rationality of believers.

A better analogy would be "only fools refuse to believe in God".

Yeah it does. If say I was an Atheist and you said I was going to hell for being that way, I would like to think I would be just as offended as you would be if I said your God was a fairy tale. I admit, it is kind of hard though to see it from the other side if you are not standing over there.

If I believe that heaven doesn't exist and you say it does and I am going to hell, then you are attacking my intelligence and rationality as well whether you consider it that or not.


Of course please don't treat me as one or the other. I am sort of riding the fence on this one. I do believe, just not in the majority of man's interpretation. I kind of get offended when a Christian tells me the scientist in me is full of gak because I believe the earth is millions of years old.

....

biccat wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:Heck I have talked to people before who stressed, if you are not a Christian you are going to Hell. I always counter with Mother Theresa. She wasn't a Christian, do you think she is going to hell?

I don't think this is a good argument.

Maybe not too you, but I am basing my judgement off of the opinions of others. The people I referred to got pissed off with me when they realized their beliefs damned Mother Teresa to hell. She was not a Christian. Of course she was Catholic and they can sometimes be considered part of the in crowd but not by all Christians.

FITZZ wrote: I really should note that for the most part (so long as it doesn't affect politics/safety/my life) I have no real problem with religion.
If someone chooses to "Believe" and it helps them get through the day...power to them.

Thats how everyone should be. Being able to accept other peoples view is important, and if you can't, well you can't really socially interact without appearing to be a total douche bag. (You need to be able to talk to people who don't share the same view as you, in a friendly or at least mutual way, if you go off on one about going to hell, or the other side saying that if you believe your deluded etc etc etc you can't really get along...)

Although believing in God, doesn't necessarily get me through the day...

Maybe you're talking about a different Mother Theresa. The one I recall was a Catholic Nun.

Now I could be getting my denominations mixed up, but I'm pretty sure Catholics fall under the general classification of "Christians."

Maybe "Ghandi" would be a better example.

rodgers37 wrote:

biccat wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:Heck I have talked to people before who stressed, if you are not a Christian you are going to Hell. I always counter with Mother Theresa. She wasn't a Christian, do you think she is going to hell?

I don't think this is a good argument.

It kind of it...

If i believed that anyone who didn't believe in God was going to hell, and was asked 'What about Mother Theresa, she's not a Christian, is she going to hell?' I would be pretty stumped. I don't believe that, and i do believe that if Heaven exists, Mother Theresa will be there.

You can't really logically say, that just because she didn't believe in God, she would go to hell, she did so much good in her life.

Mother Theresa was Catholic. She has been beatified and is on the fast track to be officially recognized for Sainthood.

rodgers37 wrote:

biccat wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:Heck I have talked to people before who stressed, if you are not a Christian you are going to Hell. I always counter with Mother Theresa. She wasn't a Christian, do you think she is going to hell?

I don't think this is a good argument.

It kind of it...

If i believed that anyone who didn't believe in God was going to hell, and was asked 'What about Mother Theresa, she's not a Christian, is she going to hell?' I would be pretty stumped. I don't believe that, and i do believe that if Heaven exists, Mother Theresa will be there.

You can't really logically say, that just because she didn't believe in God, she would go to hell, she did so much good in her life.

Exactly my point. I believe even though she was not a true Christian (the ones described as heaven goers by a lot of Christian people) she would still go to Heaven. I also believe that Native American named Tatanka Yotanka would go to the same place.

Frazzled wrote:

rodgers37 wrote:

biccat wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:Heck I have talked to people before who stressed, if you are not a Christian you are going to Hell. I always counter with Mother Theresa. She wasn't a Christian, do you think she is going to hell?

I don't think this is a good argument.

It kind of it...

If i believed that anyone who didn't believe in God was going to hell, and was asked 'What about Mother Theresa, she's not a Christian, is she going to hell?' I would be pretty stumped. I don't believe that, and i do believe that if Heaven exists, Mother Theresa will be there.

You can't really logically say, that just because she didn't believe in God, she would go to hell, she did so much good in her life.

Mother Theresa was Catholic. She has been beatified and is on the fast track to be officially recognized for Sainthood.

Yeah i'm just getting confused now...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Scythican wrote:

rodgers37 wrote:

biccat wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:Heck I have talked to people before who stressed, if you are not a Christian you are going to Hell. I always counter with Mother Theresa. She wasn't a Christian, do you think she is going to hell?

I don't think this is a good argument.

It kind of it...

If i believed that anyone who didn't believe in God was going to hell, and was asked 'What about Mother Theresa, she's not a Christian, is she going to hell?' I would be pretty stumped. I don't believe that, and i do believe that if Heaven exists, Mother Theresa will be there.

You can't really logically say, that just because she didn't believe in God, she would go to hell, she did so much good in her life.

Exactly my point. I believe even though she was not a true Christian (the ones described as heaven goers by a lot of Christian people) she would still go to Heaven. I also believe that Native American named Tatanka Yotanka would go to the same place.

Well i was wrong. I completely forgot that she was Catholic, which is Christian.... but still the point is valid, just not with Mother Theresa as the example

biccat wrote:Maybe you're talking about a different Mother Theresa. The one I recall was a Catholic Nun.

Now I could be getting my denominations mixed up, but I'm pretty sure Catholics fall under the general classification of "Christians."

Maybe "Ghandi" would be a better example.

Exactly. I even made the same point with my in crowd comment.

And you are right Ghandi is a better example.

But my point still stands. I know Christians who can't stand Catholics. They are very judgmental and consider non-Christians to be future tenants of hell.

I however do not believe all Christians are this way.


Regardless, if there is a Heaven, Ghandi should get a ticket.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rodgers37 wrote:

Well i was wrong. I completely forgot that she was Catholic, which is Christian.... but still the point is valid, just not with Mother Theresa as the example

Not a Christian. There are many key differences between the two. Heck Christians prefer it if you convert from Catholicism to Christianity.


Key differences:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-Christian.html

The Catholic/Christian division baffles me. The Christian by definition believes that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior. Catholics believe this, therefore they are Christians. They are very different from most Christian groups but they are still Christians.

Graveyman wrote:The Catholic/Christian division baffles me. The Christian by definition believes that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior. Catholics believe this, therefore they are Christians. They are very different from most Christian groups but they are still Christians.

A sample of some beliefs:

http://www.born-again-christian.info/catholics.htm