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Andrew1975 wrote:

It's a fact that 17th to 19th century armies fought in rank and file. It's also a fact that its been proven over and over again by European armies that it is superior to skirmish lines on open field.

Had been proven. Past tense. That style had no place in the American civil war much less in 40K. Standing in line like that is just a soldiers wet dream now!

It also went out of style because not only is it mind numbingly boring to paint all that camo, its much much harder to highlight and detail camo well. It was one thing with the small scale of 1st and 2nd edition, but now. Same reason you rarely see camo on IG anymore, just olive drab.

Yes, but in the fluff you still see IG regiments standing shoulder-to-shoulder. For instance, in the omnibus The Hammer of the Emperor, one of the books deals with Valhallans. They are described as standing in a line. It may be behind cover, but it is minimal. This could actually apply to almost any IG regiment, except for the Tallarn. They do not like that.
Standing in rank-and-file is just how the IG work.

I believe they don't use camo because most chapters are in the mindset that the sight of them on the battlefield strikes fear into their enemies, so why would they attempt to hide it.

Doctor Khorne wrote:I believe they don't use camo because most chapters are in the mindset that the sight of them on the battlefield strikes fear into their enemies, so why would they attempt to hide it.

^
This.

Andrew1975 wrote:Had been proven. Past tense.

Just because something is past tense does not make it not a fact

LumenPraebeo wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:Had been proven. Past tense.

Just because something is past tense does not make it not a fact

Yes, but in the fluff you still see IG regiments standing shoulder-to-shoulder. For instance, in the omnibus The Hammer of the Emperor, one of the books deals with Valhallans. They are described as standing in a line. It may be behind cover, but it is minimal. This could actually apply to almost any IG regiment, except for the Tallarn. They do not like that.
Standing in rank-and-file is just how the IG work.

You guys can't seriously believe that the IG go walking and shooting in a firing line. In the fluff they may have been in trenches or behind cover, that's a little different from walking straight into machine guns. Game wise, if I played against an IG player that lined his guys up in nice little rows, I would be very happy, just asking for a blast weapon.

Yes and outdated fact is still a fact. Yes it was the best in Napoleonic times, but the invention and mass implementation of the rifle made it disastrous.

not bad if you dont care how many men you lose- a la valhallans and most IG regiments.

Standing in lines like that is not effective today because we care if men die IG do not. This way they move faster and put out more organized firepower. Look at the orders for most of them like "first rank fire second rank fire" whenever I hear it I see to lines of soldiers dressed in civil war fatigues

It seems reasonable that marine scouts at the very least would be using camo. Taking into account that scout armor is lighter and presumably more easy to navigate terrain in, it seems like blending in with the terrain and going unnoticed would be part of their doctrine (I realize some have camo capes). I haven't seen many examples of scouts in camo.

I paint my scouts in camo.

its more of a striped pattern over the chapter color.

While they also see it as a Cowardly and un-honourable action it's also due to the fact that a Power-armoured Space Marine would need a lot of Camouflage to counsel them from the enemy. Scouts use them however because of their size and stature, Chaos marines may however use some forms of Camo due to their cowardly nature.

IIRC, its something to do with offending the armour's machine spirit. It feels so badass and cool, that if you try and hide it and paint it camo then it goes off in a hissy fit.

I think...

The argument isn't that IG use firing lines, the argument is that camouflage is necessarily superior to brighter colored livery. Let's not sidetrack the discussion.

themocaw wrote:The argument isn't that IG use firing lines, the argument is that camouflage is necessarily superior to brighter colored livery. Let's not sidetrack the discussion.

Yes, but arguing maniacs point. Space Marines don't use camouflaged gear most of the time because it doesn't suit their missions. Not because they are dunces when it comes to strategy. I want to clarify that the reason the Space Marine legions form ranks during sieges and open field battles is because it brings more guns to bare, and allows massed volleys of walls of fire. Which on open field, is more useful than spreading out and picking targets in minimal cover.

My Dark Angels have received their first shipment of modified camouflage armor, equipment, and vehicle plating. I don't know what any of you are talking about, but according to MY space marines, they use camo.

I believe that SM was created under the conditions where the war was alot of confrontations and no Hide and Seek. the war was all but about a pride, prestige and courage. for Space marines (which got alot of implants onto their bodies), camos are for the cowards. and Marines were no cowards.

I'm not sure about some IG regiments. many of them wear bright uniforms instead of camo and Khaki. were these also comes from the same reasons?

To counter the many points that've been raised:

Space Marines do not wish for camoflage, except a select few chapters like the Emperor's Warbringers, as they desire that their enemy know who is coming, and to know them is to fear them. To paraphrase the Wolves of Fenris in the Heresy, 'your spy is welcome to walk among us, you see us and you know who is coming for you'.

The Imperial Guard do not, by and large, line up in serried ranks and get shot to snot. They are an incredibly well trained military force, one has to work through the PDF and be selected purely to have the chance to request to test to join the Guard. Each solider is still a valuable resource and they fight tactically, using cover, advanced weapons and tactics.

No one factor won the American upstarts their war. The French were a huge contributor to the victory, but not the only one.

Some Guard regiments wear camoflage (Tanith, Tallarn etc.) but others still wear traditional garments and colours, the origns of which are often lost in the mists of time.

Let's say. the lost origins became "traditions".

correct?

Lone Cat wrote:I believe that SM was created under the conditions where the war was alot of confrontations and no Hide and Seek. the war was all but about a pride, prestige and courage. for Space marines (which got alot of implants onto their bodies), camos are for the cowards. and Marines were no cowards.

"Camos" isn't a word. The reason many of the Chapters/Legions now adopt the "camo is for cowards" thinking is simply because they take pride in their colors.

Think of gang tattoos, and you're not actually too far off on the mentality. It's an honor and a privilege to be a part of the group. Being part of the group is A Good Thing.

I'm not sure about some IG regiments. many of them wear bright uniforms instead of camo and Khaki. were these also comes from the same reasons?

No. Many of them have dress uniforms but also have darker variant uniforms.

Just like the fact that the Cadians have camouflage patterns for everything from urban jungles to deathworld jungles, the Guard regiments don't necessarily have a single camo pattern that is standard throughout the Imperium.

Grey Templar wrote:I paint my scouts in camo.

its more of a striped pattern over the chapter color.

Nice. Thats a good neutral color for many conditions. Plus its not so camo you don't miss them when picking up after the game.

Frazzled wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I paint my scouts in camo.

its more of a striped pattern over the chapter color.

Nice. Thats a good neutral color for many conditions. Plus its not so camo you don't miss them when picking up after the game.

well, there was the city fight game

Of course its different for each being.
Whats scarier?
A thing you can see and possibly kill.
or a thing you cannot see?
I choose the thing i cannot see, as i know they are on the battlefield, but i would be scaried shitless knowing anything that moved (even on my side) i would shoot at.

Good question, it kind of gets to ya after you play Halo with bright red armour then get shot to peices by some cleverly discuised guy. Don'y think it matters to marines though. + org they all had dull grey+sig colour armour, as they all just walk straight through fire. Also, with 40k tech, Xenos probably see 'em anyway.

LumenPraebeo wrote:

themocaw wrote:The argument isn't that IG use firing lines, the argument is that camouflage is necessarily superior to brighter colored livery. Let's not sidetrack the discussion.

Yes, but arguing maniacs point. Space Marines don't use camouflaged gear most of the time because it doesn't suit their missions. Not because they are dunces when it comes to strategy. I want to clarify that the reason the Space Marine legions form ranks during sieges and open field battles is because it brings more guns to bare, and allows massed volleys of walls of fire. Which on open field, is more useful than spreading out and picking targets in minimal cover.

My Dark Angels have received their first shipment of modified camouflage armor, equipment, and vehicle plating. I don't know what any of you are talking about, but according to MY space marines, they use camo.

They are dunces when it comes to strategy. Shock and awe works to a point, but reading the Horus Heresey novels, Death Guard, Blood Angels, Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, Space Wolves, Word Bearers, World Eaters, basically all boil down to 'rar...rush 'em boys'' The Marines get shot in the face and cut to ribbons, often in ways that they shouldn't because they just run into the guns. While I haven't read the Dark Angel books, so far only the Ultramarines and the Emporer's Children use any kind of tactical know how. Even then sooner or later it bogs into 'my pride says I shant hide, so rar rush 'em boys!'.

First World War and the Civil War pretty much nullify your point. Massing up like that gets you dead (as it often gets guys dead that wouldn't have to die if they moved judiciously). Rapid fire weapons, artillery, bored rifles, chemical weapons, etc pretty much nuked the 'line up and bum rush 'em' unless you massively outnumbered your foes. Marine armor, even in the books, doesn't stop grenades, many bullets, rockets, etc. Pretty much every historian will tell you way more people died in both of those conflicts than needed to due to antiquated 'line up and fire/bum rush' tactics.

Hell, at one point the Death Guard even say "sir, we could flank them and easily defeat them." to which the reply is "flank them!? are you ef'ing crazy!? get out there and get shot in the face like you're supposed to".

I like the Space Marines, I have a Marine army myself, and used to own a large Black Templar force. However they aren't the 'uber super duper I can crush Superman's head with my pinkie and out think Patton, Sherman, Rommel, and Ceasar at the same time' guys that people on here like to make them out to be. They're pretty darn human in the fluff really, prone to petty jelousies, pride, glory seeking (even the non-chaos turning ones).

A SWAT team works on shock and awe, do you see them waltzing blindly into things (even when heavily armed and armored)? No, because even if the guy can't easily shoot you through all that armor a lucky shot may hurt you or someone else, catch a seam/joint, etc.

Maniac_nmt wrote:

LumenPraebeo wrote:

themocaw wrote:The argument isn't that IG use firing lines, the argument is that camouflage is necessarily superior to brighter colored livery. Let's not sidetrack the discussion.

Yes, but arguing maniacs point. Space Marines don't use camouflaged gear most of the time because it doesn't suit their missions. Not because they are dunces when it comes to strategy. I want to clarify that the reason the Space Marine legions form ranks during sieges and open field battles is because it brings more guns to bare, and allows massed volleys of walls of fire. Which on open field, is more useful than spreading out and picking targets in minimal cover.

My Dark Angels have received their first shipment of modified camouflage armor, equipment, and vehicle plating. I don't know what any of you are talking about, but according to MY space marines, they use camo.

They are dunces when it comes to strategy. Shock and awe works to a point, but reading the Horus Heresey novels, Death Guard, Blood Angels, Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, Space Wolves, Word Bearers, World Eaters, basically all boil down to 'rar...rush 'em boys'' The Marines get shot in the face and cut to ribbons, often in ways that they shouldn't because they just run into the guns. While I haven't read the Dark Angel books, so far only the Ultramarines and the Emporer's Children use any kind of tactical know how. Even then sooner or later it bogs into 'my pride says I shant hide, so rar rush 'em boys!'.

First World War and the Civil War pretty much nullify your point. Massing up like that gets you dead (as it often gets guys dead that wouldn't have to die if they moved judiciously). Rapid fire weapons, artillery, bored rifles, chemical weapons, etc pretty much nuked the 'line up and bum rush 'em' unless you massively outnumbered your foes. Marine armor, even in the books, doesn't stop grenades, many bullets, rockets, etc. Pretty much every historian will tell you way more people died in both of those conflicts than needed to due to antiquated 'line up and fire/bum rush' tactics.

Hell, at one point the Death Guard even say "sir, we could flank them and easily defeat them." to which the reply is "flank them!? are you ef'ing crazy!? get out there and get shot in the face like you're supposed to".

I like the Space Marines, I have a Marine army myself, and used to own a large Black Templar force. However they aren't the 'uber super duper I can crush Superman's head with my pinkie and out think Patton, Sherman, Rommel, and Ceasar at the same time' guys that people on here like to make them out to be. They're pretty darn human in the fluff really, prone to petty jelousies, pride, glory seeking (even the non-chaos turning ones).

A SWAT team works on shock and awe, do you see them waltzing blindly into things (even when heavily armed and armored)? No, because even if the guy can't easily shoot you through all that armor a lucky shot may hurt you or someone else, catch a seam/joint, etc.

Space Marines are all great strategist and shock and awe works for all the situations they are ever used for. They are shock troops after all. Honestly if 100 marines can take a planet they are doing something right. Comparing them to a SWAT team is ridiculous, not only are Marines not human, but they are much heavily armed and armored and better trained than any SWAT team. I will admit some chapters like Space Wolves are all crazy, but a majority of them are not. They also care much more about casualties now than in the heresy, because before they were in legions. They could walk up to the enemy trench despite incoming fire and take less casualties. If marines fought like other armies they would give up their main advantages, as they are different from other armies

Massing up like that is effective in wars in 40k terms, it is looked down on now because you do get heavy casualties. You do get much more organized mass firepower that way thus killing more people. Alot of your guys will die, but the Guard simply do not care.

As a practical matter speaking in game terms.

4++ cover save or 3+ armor save. Your armor is king so why not flaunt it. Come out in the gaudiest neon color and let them know you are gunning for them.

Let the imperial guard cower behind a bush or a berm. The space marines just come at you as fast as possible in a direct line and trust in the power of ceramite armor.

My homespun chapters, the Frenzied Hornets (Chapter #1001) never wear camo, BUT, they're a dedicated anti-Tyrannid force and had learned from watching recordings of previous battles that the bugs were leary about eatting black and yellow targets, since that color scheme is the universal "I AM POISON" symbol.

So, the Hornets got bumblebee'd, to buy them a precious half-second or so when a bug tried to think if it was safe to chomp him or not, buying JUST enough time to pull a trigger and end the xenos where it stood.

So, oddly, it's rational for them.

Maniac_nmt wrote:They are dunces when it comes to strategy. Shock and awe works to a point, but reading the Horus Heresey novels, Death Guard, Blood Angels, Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, Space Wolves, Word Bearers, World Eaters, basically all boil down to 'rar...rush 'em boys'' The Marines get shot in the face and cut to ribbons, often in ways that they shouldn't because they just run into the guns. While I haven't read the Dark Angel books, so far only the Ultramarines and the Emporer's Children use any kind of tactical know how. Even then sooner or later it bogs into 'my pride says I shant hide, so rar rush 'em boys!'.

First World War and the Civil War pretty much nullify your point. Massing up like that gets you dead (as it often gets guys dead that wouldn't have to die if they moved judiciously). Rapid fire weapons, artillery, bored rifles, chemical weapons, etc pretty much nuked the 'line up and bum rush 'em' unless you massively outnumbered your foes. Marine armor, even in the books, doesn't stop grenades, many bullets, rockets, etc. Pretty much every historian will tell you way more people died in both of those conflicts than needed to due to antiquated 'line up and fire/bum rush' tactics.

In the book, you only read about the open field and siege battles, but there was one point in the Horus Heresy, the last stand of the loyalists at Istvaan III, tactics other than rushing were used to good effect against the traitor legions who laid siege to Choral city in the so called rush tactic because of number advantages. But other than that battle, there are many other battles in urban, jungle, and close up environments where Astartes fight in other ways than their usual shock attacks. One reason why you read about them fighting the way they do is simply because they're Astartes, the advantages of a straight up rush the foe outweighs the advantages of careful planning to avoid a few deaths.

During the first world war, they did NOT form ranks to fight, they fought most engagements in trenches because the enemy did, and when the enemy hides behind cover to shoot at you, it makes sense to do the same. That doesn't mean rank and file doesn't work, it simply means it isn't suitable for this kind of engagement because your opponent is not on open field, and if he isn't, it doesn't make much sense for you to be either. During the Civil War, they DID line up the troops to fight. Casualties during the Civil War was massive, but it didn't prove it was a disadvantage, because they never fought any massive engagements in urban environments, it was open field. Besides that, I wasn't talking about world war one, I was talking about 17th to 19th century warfare, where such strategies were plausible because both opposing factions choose to fight on open field. A strategy adopted from the roman legions, where you can minimize your disadvantages, and maximize your advantages with more fire power, troops, and broadsides.

That is in effect, what the Primarch's were thinking when they moved their troops in rank and file against opponents on open field and while laying siege. They do so despite enemy firepower, artillery, and unconventional weapons because they can shrug off the casualties. Again,the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, and also outweigh advantages of other methods.

Camo is for cowards!

MeanGreenStompa wrote:It was certainly 10 feet in the Realm of Chaos days. I don't know why they'd retcon them shorter, unless you're referring to the Grey Knights, who were mentioned as being shorter and stockier than regular marines as a result of their intensive training on Titan and it's massive gravity's effects on them.

Grey Knights are like Wolverines of space marines.

The Thousand Sons were listed as being even taller, due to Magnus' genetic influence.

I'm curious as to where you read this, because I've been looking all over and I haven't seen anything in Realms of Chaos that lists the Thousand Sons as being taller. Or Marines being 10 feet tall, for that matter

11ft tall super-soldiers don't need camo.

Yeah, totally. Anything over 9 feet tall wearing power armor and shooting a full auto rocket launcher doesn't need camoflage, it needs badass background music.