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Lets get back on the topic if they did use camo you would never be able to find your mini's why-thank-you! lol

Nicholas wrote:Their face.... I mean faith is their shield.

On a serious note they don't do it because marines fluffwise don't go into many drawn out battles that's where guard excel. They drop in the center of an army scream for the Emperor and everyone their pants. I mean what would you do if you saw a bright yellow marine coming at you. They know that fear is one of the most effective weapons. In the game they are their own army, but on almost all occasions fluffwise they are backed by millions of guardsman and used as shock troops

On a serious note they don't do it because marines fluffwise don't go into many drawn out battles that's where guard excel. They drop in the center of an army scream for the Emperor and everyone their pants.

^this guy knows his onions.

Nicholas wrote:3 meters is 9 ft

There's a rounding error in there.

3 meters is actually 9 feet 10 inches (plus a bit more).

The uniforms of the Imperial Guard are camouflaged in order to protect their wearers by hiding them from sight.

The principle is that what the enemy cannot see he cannot kill. This is not the way of the Adeptus Astartes. A Space Marine’s armour is bright with heraldry that proclaims his devotion to his Chapter and the beloved Emperor of Mankind. Our principle is that what the enemy can see, he will soon learn to fear…
+++ Chaplain Aston, 10th Company, Fire Hawks Chapter +++

Ok guys I think this is getting a bit out of hand. Who cares if they are 2 meters or 3 meters. They are still really hug in power or terminator armor.

In regards to Camo. I understand I hulking Space Wolf charging at your lines while you only carry a crap renegade langun is gonna strike fear in you. But I remember reading in one of the Ragnar novels, (I think a intro story) where Ragnar and his blood claws got ambushed by night lords. They positioned themselves down wind from the wolfs and used the greyish sand and rubble to block out their dark armor. Ambush successful.

Space Marines are supposed to be the spearhead. So they fight the hardest guys. I just thought it would be interesting if they adapted their armor for certain theaters. ie urban combat?

Answer to topic question:
The same reason why Imperial Guard only wear flak armour
because, PROTECTION IS FOR COWARDS!!!!

cyberscape7 wrote:Answer to topic question:
The same reason why Imperial Guard only wear flak armour
because, PROTECTION IS FOR COWARDS!!!!

That could be take the wrong way...

3 Yards is 9 feet.

Meters are bigger.

space marines i think would be about 2.5 metres tall (8 feet?). taller than an ordinary person but not ridiculously tall. of course the power armour would make them taller as well, so for all intents and purposes they are approaching 3 metres (9.2 feet)

2.5 meters is 8'4"(roughly)

3 meters is 9' 10"(again Roughly)

At any rate the reason Marines no longer wear Camo(most of the time) is that it does not mesh well with their tactics.

Bright armor and heraldry is very useful for "shock and Awe" tactics, which is what marines generally use.

When you show up in orbit in a city-sized battle-barge and start launching preliminary bombardments, followed by Drop pods into the center of the enemy; stealth is not really a concern.

I believe their are quite a few books that deal with marine infiltrations or other more covert operations; these would be the times that marines would wear camo, or at the very least more muted colors.

Monster Rain wrote:3 Yards is 9 feet.

Meters are bigger.

My bad don't know what I was thinking

Ok so lets look at this in a different light. War in the year 40,000 isn't 2,000 pts with 4 ruins and 2 or 3 hills. There are a lot of huge things out there. If any of you have played an Apocalypse game you know. I mean with a huge stompa's cannon. One, two or three squads of space marines are dead in one swoop. So some cammo might help them hide until they are in range of melta bombs... idk.
Maybe a stupid thought. I just think all the cockiness is bs. No amount of power armor, or your two hearts is gonna stop a shot from a titan.

coolyo294 wrote:

cyberscape7 wrote:Answer to topic question:
The same reason why Imperial Guard only wear flak armour
because, PROTECTION IS FOR COWARDS!!!!

That could be take the wrong way...

Lol

monti14 wrote:lol agreed.
Idk i say they should use there resouces better. I mean do we put our seals and marsoc guys in blue and gold? why should they?

They do put their SEALS and Marsoc guys in cammo... they call them "the Imperial Guard".

Space Marines are leagues above them... and also nine feet tall.

No amount of power armor, or your two hearts is gonna stop a shot from a titan.

Nor is any amount of cammo going to hide you from targeting auspex.

Because the Emperor protects!

Also because they charge into battle and kill everything, made easier by the fact that enemies are too busy panicky at the 9ft tall guy carrying a hand-cannon and a chainsaw who just took a tank shell point-blank to the chest and shrugged it off like a BB pellet that they can see a mile away because hes bright(insert color here) they can see it, and see him do all these things, but they. cant. stop. him. Guardsmen need camo to not be seen so that they survive, Space Marines dont have to worry about surviving, only killing.

First Answer: They do. Their camo is just that good.

Second Answer: They do. You might notice it on their scouts, which are what they often use for stealth missions.

Third Answer: Chapters that use stealth do use camouflage. You might be aware of the Raven Guard, who operate at night and wear black.

Fourth Answer: They do, but the situations where Marines wear camouflage don't come up in games of 40K very often. Same as the situations where they operate outside of armor, or the situations where they act as a bodyguard detachment to an important Rogue Trader.


Finally, another one of these questions? Again, thousand or more chapters, operating over ten thousand years, so I'm sure that all of them have always looked the same, despite numerous examples of Space Marines in camouflage available. You might notice that not all Navy Seals are always wearing scuba gear either. Doesn't mean that they all just hold their breath underwater.

Largely because for all of the supposed tactical accumen of Space Marines, they're pretty darn dump tactically.

Reading through the Horus Heresey novels they don't meet half the imagery that surrounds them. Favoring brute force attacks in the open walking idiotically into incoming fire and getting shot to pieces over it.

Maniac_nmt wrote:Largely because for all of the supposed tactical accumen of Space Marines, they're pretty darn dump tactically.

Reading through the Horus Heresy novels they don't meet half the imagery that surrounds them. Favoring brute force attacks in the open walking idiotically into incoming fire and getting shot to pieces over it.

That's only when they fight in the open. And they do that in the open because its been proven to be effective when fighting on open field. Wars and battles fought from the 17th to 19th century have proven the rank and file shooting to be superior on open field rather than skirmish lines. In the books, when it comes to city, trench, or firefights in urban or natural environments, they fought in firefights with the enemy behind cover. Either that or rush in swiftly to engage them in close quarters. Space Marines might not know how to cook, show compassion, navigate themselves over political debates, or change a babies diapers, but the foe's who do battle with the Adeptus Astartes thinking they're dumb often do not live very long.

Well the game was invented by the same people who thought it was a good idea to stand in nice files in bright red jackets while American hunters with rifles took pot shots at them.

Wars and battles fought from the 17th to 19th century have proven the rank and file shooting to be superior on open field rather than skirmish lines.

Yeah that theory went right out the window with the invention of the rifled barrel, and only got worse with automatic weapons.

My space marines are Camouflaged, blue urban camo, but my army was started 20 years ago when camo on marines was not so uncommon.

Ronin-Sage wrote:Nothing says 'here, let me help you aim for me' like a suit of blue and silver Power Armor of Greater Smurfitude.

I don't like this. Just more anti-Ultramarines bandwagon. The UM of course are not the only Chapter to not use camo. At least you could have called them Ultramarines.
Oh, and they are not blue and silver. Just blue with a little white. The old UM Legion might have been, but the current one is just blue and white.

Anyway, the reasons they do not use camo are said above. They feel the are way to cool for it.

Andrew1975 wrote:Well the game was invented by the same people who thought it was a good idea to stand in nice files in bright red jackets while American hunters with rifles took pot shots at them.

I really, really, REALLY hate this misconception about Colonial-era warfare. Sure, your musket infantry stood in lines wearing red jackets, but:

A. The red worn by "Redcoats" was a darker shade than the bright crimson used in dress uniforms today.

B. Muskets were less accurate, but had a much higher rate of fire.

C. The Brits had riflemen too.

D. The contribution of the minutemen and militia is sorely overrated.

Beside all that, those "guys in nice neat lines wearing red" actually kicked the Americans' arses, so in the end, those hunters didn't do such a great job, did they? Do you want to know who really won the American Revolutionary War? The French. Seriously. We were getting our butts kicked until the French realized, "Hey! These American guys are fething around with our most hated enemy! Let's help them screw things up!" Seriously, if it weren't for the French (particularly a guy named LaFayette: look him up, total badass), we'd never have made it.

themocaw wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:Well the game was invented by the same people who thought it was a good idea to stand in nice files in bright red jackets while American hunters with rifles took pot shots at them.

I really, really, REALLY hate this misconception about Colonial-era warfare. Sure, your musket infantry stood in lines wearing red jackets, but:

A. The red worn by "Redcoats" was a darker shade than the bright crimson used in dress uniforms today.

B. Muskets were less accurate, but had a much higher rate of fire.

C. The Brits had riflemen too.

D. The contribution of the minutemen and militia is sorely overrated.

Beside all that, those "guys in nice neat lines wearing red" actually kicked the Americans' arses, so in the end, those hunters didn't do such a great job, did they? Do you want to know who really won the American Revolutionary War? The French. Seriously. We were getting our butts kicked until the French realized, "Hey! These American guys are fething around with our most hated enemy! Let's help them screw things up!" Seriously, if it weren't for the French (particularly a guy named LaFayette: look him up, total badass), we'd never have made it.

Not this again, the french didn't land a real army in the colonies during the revolution! Remember they landed less than 10,000 troops, not nearly enough to be a real contributing factor. The forces they brought were very small, their major contribution was mostly material and logistics. Moany experts say that while the help was of great importance, the colonies would have won anyway, but it would ave lasted much longer and been bloodier. It's been covered on these forums before.

Oh and those red uniforms were pretty bright, I'm not sure where you get this idea that they were muted, but they were bright enough to be seen through clouds of musket powder, which was the point. High visibility was not considered a military disadvantage until the general adoption of rifles in the 1850s, followed by smokeless powder after 1880.

It's all a moral thing. You don't call in the marines to fight in large scale battles (well you do, but they have important jobs). They are the guys that break the other guy's lines. It's pretty easy to see when you take into account:
1) Tactics. As has been said, drop pods are rather noticeable.
2) Weaponry. Bolters and chainswords are not the most efficient killers, however they make a hell of a mess.
3) Enemy targeting. How many people in the year 40,000 do you think use standard light to target... anything?

My feel of the general idea behind the Space Marines is that they drop in, say "Hey, look, we're going to kill you" and then kill you in a shower of gore, then look to the guy next to you who probably at that point REALLY doesn't want to be there anymore.

Orks use light...

What "light" are you talking about?

Andrew1975 wrote:Not this again, the french didn't land a real army in the colonies during the revolution! Remember they landed less than 10,000 troops, not nearly enough to be a real contributing factor. The forces they brought were very small, their major contribution was mostly material and logistics. Moany experts say that while the help was of great importance, the colonies would have won anyway, but it would ave lasted much longer and been bloodier. It's been covered on these forums before.

Oh and those red uniforms were pretty bright, I'm not sure where you get this idea that they were muted, but they were bright enough to be seen through clouds of musket powder, which was the point. High visibility was not considered a military disadvantage until the general adoption of rifles in the 1850s, followed by smokeless powder after 1880.

The French had a HUGE impact on the American Revolution, and anyone who says otherwise completely misunderstands the impact that "mere materiel and logistics" has on warfare. Wars are won or lost based on who has more bullets, beans, and bodies than the other, and the French provided a fethton of bullets and beans to America.

The redcoat dye worn by the rank and file would have been "madder red," a vegetable based dye which A. doesn't get as vivid as the more expensive cochneal worn by officers, and B. tends to fade in sunlight. So instead of vivid red uniforms, imagine guys dressed in colors ranging from a darker cinnamon to a faded pinkish color. Not exactly camouflage, maybe, but certainly not neon red as people tend to imagine.

Your final statement, however, is spot-on: high visibility was an advantage in warfare at this point, mostly because low visibility wasn't enough of an advantage to be worth it. You'd get the occasional gadflies popping off at the odd low-ranking officer or such, but the response to that would usually be to get a bunch of your musket dudes who can shoot about twice as fast and put bayonets on the ends of their muskets to find the sniper and kill him. Militiamen were majorly involved in one major battle, and they did so crappily that Washington immediately switched over to professional soldiers. Camouflage and stealth doesn't matter much if your brightly-clad opponent can absorb your hits and keep on coming and outshoot/outfight you enough to bring you to force you into a stand-up fight that you are going to lose.

. . . and with that, the subject changes from a tangent to back on subject.

themocaw wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:Not this again, the french didn't land a real army in the colonies during the revolution! Remember they landed less than 10,000 troops, not nearly enough to be a real contributing factor. The forces they brought were very small, their major contribution was mostly material and logistics. Moany experts say that while the help was of great importance, the colonies would have won anyway, but it would ave lasted much longer and been bloodier. It's been covered on these forums before.

Oh and those red uniforms were pretty bright, I'm not sure where you get this idea that they were muted, but they were bright enough to be seen through clouds of musket powder, which was the point. High visibility was not considered a military disadvantage until the general adoption of rifles in the 1850s, followed by smokeless powder after 1880.

The French had a HUGE impact on the American Revolution, and anyone who says otherwise completely misunderstands the impact that "mere materiel and logistics" has on warfare. Wars are won or lost based on who has more bullets, beans, and bodies than the other, and the French provided a fethton of bullets and beans to America.

The redcoat dye worn by the rank and file would have been "madder red," a vegetable based dye which A. doesn't get as vivid as the more expensive cochneal worn by officers, and B. tends to fade in sunlight. So instead of vivid red uniforms, imagine guys dressed in colors ranging from a darker cinnamon to a faded pinkish color. Not exactly camouflage, maybe, but certainly not neon red as people tend to imagine.

Your final statement, however, is spot-on: high visibility was an advantage in warfare at this point, mostly because low visibility wasn't enough of an advantage to be worth it. You'd get the occasional gadflies popping off at the odd low-ranking officer or such, but the response to that would usually be to get a bunch of your musket dudes who can shoot about twice as fast and put bayonets on the ends of their muskets to find the sniper and kill him. Militiamen were majorly involved in one major battle, and they did so crappily that Washington immediately switched over to professional soldiers. Camouflage and stealth doesn't matter much if your brightly-clad opponent can absorb your hits and keep on coming and outshoot/outfight you enough to bring you to force you into a stand-up fight that you are going to lose.

. . . and with that, the subject changes from a tangent to back on subject.

That was also the only tactic they had. Take the much older military tactic of the 'pikemen push'. Scores, maybe hundreds, or even thousands, of men armed with pikes running at each other. They clash, and both sides get stuck. The winner of one of these battles would be the one whose ranks did not collapse. They would just fight there, stuck, and not able to move, for a while. There would always be large amounts of casualties, with a large portion of both armies dead. Not particularly efficient, but very effective for that time. Because that was all there was.

EDIT:
Also, this is quite similar to how the Imperial Guard operates.

D. The contribution of the minutemen and militia is sorely overrated.

Your argument however was that the french had more of an impact on the battle field. The didn't they weren't there.

Andrew1975 wrote:

D. The contribution of the minutemen and militia is sorely overrated.

Your argument however was that the french had more of an impact on the battle field. The didn't they weren't there.

And your argument was that the game was invented by people who live in a country we had a war with over two hundred years ago.
You also said the theory of rank and file shooting went out the window with the rifled barrel. But you seem to have forgotten that it wasn't a theory. It's a fact that 17th to 19th century armies fought in rank and file. It's also a fact that its been proven over and over again by European armies that it is superior to skirmish lines on open field.

It's a fact that 17th to 19th century armies fought in rank and file. It's also a fact that its been proven over and over again by European armies that it is superior to skirmish lines on open field.

Had been proven. Past tense. That style had no place in the American civil war much less in 40K. Standing in line like that is just a soldiers wet dream now!

It also went out of style because not only is it mind numbingly boring to paint all that camo, its much much harder to highlight and detail camo well. It was one thing with the small scale of 1st and 2nd edition, but now. Same reason you rarely see camo on IG anymore, just olive drab.