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That's Leonard Nimoy with Nunchucks to you, sir!

This whole issue highlights my biggest beef with the perception of Cadia as the "generic Imperial Guard".

They're far from the 'norm' for the Imperial Guard, but the norm would be boring or depressing so Cadians instead get used as the 'stereotypical' Imperial Guard.

Cadia, by and large, is a terrible representation of an Imperial world. Everything about the planet is geared towards one thing: keeping the filth spewing from the Eye of Terror in.

Kanluwen wrote:This whole issue highlights my biggest beef with the perception of Cadia as the "generic Imperial Guard".

To be fair, the difference must not be as big as you may think, which is why a lot of people can interpret the few details we have in slightly different ways.

Here's my current interpretation, adapted to the quotes posted in this thread: Each Imperial world has its PDF Regiments for internal security and protection against outside incursion. By and large (and owing to IG regiments being tithed from the best PDF), these are not as well trained and equipped as the Guard, but there are many exceptions. In warzones with IG presence, PDF regiments are always subjected to and integrated into the Munitorum's command structure. Cadia isn't different in that regard.

However, where Cadia is different is that it seems as if, due to an ongoing state of war and the Imperial Guard having assumed full command of local defense, the population gets drafted into the IG directly and the standing PDF (Interior Guard) gets formed from its ranks rather than the other way around, whereas 90% of the Cadian Shock Troops still rotate out for duty in other war zones all across the Imperium - both to provide the Munitorum with many regiments of superiorly disciplined soldiers as well as to receive veterans when the surviving units return from such a campaign, making sure that Cadia retains a large number of battle-proven troops even in peacetime whilst never committing all of its forces to some situation elsewhere, lest the Gateway World may become vulnerable to assault.

There, this should bring everything in line with each other without violating the established meaning of the planetary defense force term (capitalization isn't that important, it seems, for I've often seen it written in lower characters - I believe even the 5E rulebook writes it so, though I'd have to take a look to be sure).

Kanluwen wrote:

Lappie wrote:At no point did I ever mention that the Interior were exactly the same as all other PDF, that would be slowed. I was simply saying they are used as the PDF. Kan seems to have got all frustrated for no real reason over this.

Saying any 2 PDF are exactly the same would be really stupid becuase they arn't.

And yet you got all huffy about 'generalizing'.
The Interior Guard is not a PDF. That's the point that you and Emperor's Faithful aren't comprehending, no matter how simply I've explained it.

They are not. They are recruited from within the Imperial Guard regiments that Cadia provides. That's why it says "One soldier in every ten" and not "One citizen in every ten".

So if the Interior Guard is recruited from among the Cadian soldiery that means that the Interior Guard, which is a planetary defense force(notice the lack of capitalization. We went over this already, a planetary defense force can be that...but it doesn't necessarily have to be a PDF, which again we already covered.), is an Imperial Guard formation.

Ergo, I win!

So you're saying that Cadia's PDF is not a Planetary Defence Force, but a planetary defence force, and the spelling (sorry, not spelling, capitalization, LOL) makes a difference worth fighting for 4 pages.

You're right. You win the Internetz. Gratz.

Lappie wrote:At no point did I ever mention that the Interior were exactly the same as all other PDF, that would be slowed. I was simply saying they are used as the PDF. Kan seems to have got all frustratted for no real reason over this.


Saying any 2 PDF are exactly the same would be really stupid becuase they arn't.

I do now realise that founding a chapter on cadia may be a little extreme but it's the IoM... they've done worse before, moving moons, exterminatus, need I go on.

It's not extreme, just pointless.
There are reputedly 20 chapters dedicated to the defense of the Cadian Gate already (Astartes Praeses) and of those 20 1 has been wiped out and another has gone rogue leaving 18 left. Adding the numerous chapters who would assist Cadia in it's time of need (SW for example are fairly nearby to Cadia and have fought there many times)

Alkasyn wrote:
So you're saying that Cadia's PDF is not a Planetary Defence Force, but a planetary defence force, and the spelling (sorry, not spelling, capitalization, LOL) makes a difference worth fighting for 4 pages.

You're right. You win the Internetz. Gratz.

Since you keep cropping up and sniping at me, I'm going to assume you have some kind of grudge. This amuses me greatly, but I figure rather than engaging you in the same kind of shenanigans you're up to, I will instead educate you and anyone else who was confused by my point.

The point that you are not comprehending with the 'PDF' thing is important when it comes to dealing in details. Details matter, as does context.

To give an example:
An Inquisitorial Stormtrooper Regiment based on a planet like Nemesis Tessera is devoted solely to defending the planet. That makes them a 'planetary defence force'.
That, however, does not make them a PDF.

PDF(capitalized) refers to a specific organization, which is fairly standardized across the entirety of 40k's fluff. It is a trained, semi-professional, volunteer(for the most part) force whose equipment and training is the responsibility of the Imperial governor for the planet in question.
Cadia's Interior Guard/PDF/whatever you want to call it is not that. Cadia's Interior Guard is drawn from their core of Shock Troops, and is a permanent formation which is equipped the same as a Cadian Shock Troop regiment.

So yeah. There is a difference, and Cadia does not have a 'PDF'. They have a planetary defence force, which can literally mean anything

Essentially this is a semantics argument.
The Interior Guard is a force that defends the planet.
Whereas the PDF of Average planet 1 is made up of volunteers from the citizenry.

Whole lot of semantics going on here. Planets other than Cadia also call their PDF Interior Guard.

There you go then...

If anyone tells somone they cant play with their plastic men that they painstakingly painted and paid a fortune for in a certain way that they want to, they should be slapped in the face. It's a game, we all play 40k to have fun and let loose. If you want your chapter to be from Cadia, then do it, If you want them to be polka dotted, then go for it.

romegamer wrote:If anyone tells somone they cant play with their plastic men that they painstakingly painted and paid a fortune for in a certain way that they want to, they should be slapped in the face. It's a game, we all play 40k to have fun and let loose. If you want your chapter to be from Cadia, then do it, If you want them to be polka dotted, then go for it.

If anyone asks "Is this fluffy", they clearly care about other people's opinion.

You can do whatever the hell you want with your army, but 40k is a two person game. If you make an army entirely to annoy a certain portion of the gamer base--you're only hurting yourself in the long run.

purplefood wrote:Essentially this is a semantics argument.

Not quite. Kanluwen is wrong, which in itself is unusual, but has fallen back on semantics to keep a pretence of being correct.

S'all cool bro.

There are tons of chapters dedicated to protecting the Cadian Gate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Not quite. Kanluwen is wrong, which in itself is unusual typical, butand has fallen back on semantics to keep a pretence of being correct.

Fix't.

No, I'll be fair to him. Kanluwen is usually pretty solid on his stuff. A lot of the time I don't even have to post becuase he's already answered the OP conclusively.

I'm just busting chops, although his attention to detail does start to get a little wonky when discussing a favored faction.

He is the male Melissia.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:He is the male Melissia.

I wouldn't go that far, KC.

Nothing said really contradicts my statement of there being misinformation all stemming back to the fact that Cruddace fethed up with the last book. Nothing within contradicted the earlier established organizational information, it simply used an acronym that is associated with a specific organization and shouldn't be used except in the most generic of terms.

romegamer wrote:If anyone tells somone they cant play with their plastic men that they painstakingly painted and paid a fortune for in a certain way that they want to, they should be slapped in the face. It's a game, we all play 40k to have fun and let loose. If you want your chapter to be from Cadia, then do it, If you want them to be polka dotted, then go for it.

No one is saying that, they are answering the question of 'is this idea fitting in the universe that we play?', the answer is no.

This is the background thread for discussing issues with the background of the 40k universe.

Kanluwen wrote:Nothing said really contradicts my statement of there being misinformation all stemming back to the fact that Cruddace fethed up with the last book.

Hmm. You also said that about the Storm Trooper count - apparently just because you don't like their original number (which never changed, so it seems to be an issue of personal preferences).

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Nothing said really contradicts my statement of there being misinformation all stemming back to the fact that Cruddace fethed up with the last book.

Hmm. You also said that about the Storm Trooper count - apparently just because you don't like their original number (which never changed, so it seems to be an issue of personal preferences).

Considering there's been mention of more than one Stormtrooper Regiment on Orders of Battle, I'd say Cruddace fethed up.

It's pretty clear that he copied/pasted earlier fluff. It's why we have "hot-shot lasguns" again, when the rules he copy/pasted make mention of "Hellguns".

Kanluwen wrote:Considering there's been mention of more than one Stormtrooper Regiment on Orders of Battle, I'd say Cruddace fethed up.

Where exactly?

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Considering there's been mention of more than one Stormtrooper Regiment on Orders of Battle, I'd say Cruddace fethed up.

Where exactly?

There are regiments of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

Thus, there is more than one Stormtrooper Regiment.

Kanluwen wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Considering there's been mention of more than one Stormtrooper Regiment on Orders of Battle, I'd say Cruddace fethed up.

Where exactly?

There are regiments of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

Thus, there is more than one Stormtrooper Regiment.

Duh. There's only one Imperial Guard Storm Trooper Regiment. This is all Cruddace ever wrote, and this is how it's been since 2E.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Considering there's been mention of more than one Stormtrooper Regiment on Orders of Battle, I'd say Cruddace fethed up.

Where exactly?

There are regiments of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

Thus, there is more than one Stormtrooper Regiment.

Duh. There's only one Imperial Guard Storm Trooper Regiment. This is all Cruddace ever wrote, and this is how it's been since 2E.

No, his statement is there is one Stormtrooper Regiment. The fact that Taros makes mention of Stormtrooper Companies that are in the upper 2ks/low 3ks for designators--there's more than one Regiment.

Kanluwen wrote:No, his statement is there is one Stormtrooper Regiment. The fact that Taros makes mention of Stormtrooper Companies that are in the upper 2ks/low 3ks for designators--there's more than one Regiment.

The statement is made in the entry for the Imperial Guard Storm Troopers, though, where it fits perfectly.

As far as the company numbers are concerned, I remember having seen that discussion elsewhere, but it can easily be explained without creating a contradiction. For example, the numbers could be progressive (when the 1st gets wiped out, it doesn't get resurrected with the same name), or that this is a trick to fool enemy intelligence and conceal their true number (stuff like this gets done in RL military as well). Sadly, we know little about the regiment's internal structure, or how much its traditions deviate from Munitorum standards.

Simply put, the problem is that Cruddace just copy/pasted the majority of fluff on Stormtroopers from the Codex from two editions ago. The Codex prior to now was quite light on fluff for unit types.

There has been more than one reference to Stormtrooper Regiments in the Black Library's stuff. It's also been mentioned in, as I mentioned, Orders of Battle before.

When Stormtroopers were originally being fluffed out, the idea was that they were a "Special Forces organization" that existed and was parted out.
They've retained the parted out bit, but the scale of 40k has grown to the point where a single Regiment existing is so completely ridiculous that it's silly. When some warzones(Cadia, for example, had around 8 Stormtrooper Companies deployed to it. That's not counting the Kasrkin either) have almost the entirety of a single Regiment in them at once...it's absurd and shows that Cruddace is a far worse "fluff writer" than Ward will ever be.

Kanluwen wrote:Simply put, the problem is that Cruddace just copy/pasted the majority of fluff on Stormtroopers from the Codex from two editions ago. The Codex prior to now was quite light on fluff for unit types.

3E and 4E were both not very thick with fluff, at least from the books I've seen - so I actually welcome having older fluff resurface. Also makes the setting look more consistent than rewriting stuff all the time...

Kanluwen wrote:There has been more than one reference to Stormtrooper Regiments in the Black Library's stuff.

Probably. But Black Library also wants to tell us that (amongst other lulzworthy things) Marines use multilasers, Terminators do backflips, Sisters have something like a "time off" and the Ecclesiarchy has its own battleships. "Alternative worlds", as George Mann said.

Kanluwen wrote:It's also been mentioned in, as I mentioned, Orders of Battle before.

But that's Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. Different story (though I'd be curious about how they are recruited). Or do you have other examples?

Kanluwen wrote:They've retained the parted out bit, but the scale of 40k has grown to the point where a single Regiment existing is so completely ridiculous that it's silly. When some warzones(Cadia, for example, had around 8 Stormtrooper Companies deployed to it. That's not counting the Kasrkin either) have almost the entirety of a single Regiment in them at once...

I wouldn't say so. It's really not like the entire galaxy is at war, and given how the Munitorum operates, Storm Troopers are part of the "escalation" strategy, which requires some major stuff going on before they would be deployed. I still don't think that there are that many simultaneous battles all across the Imperium that could be compared to Armageddon, Vraks or Cadia.

In the Orders of Battle that we've seen, Storm Trooper companies are much less prevalent than Marine companies (the ratio on Armageddon was 1:10 iirc), which further gives us a hint of how rarely they are deployed.

Kanluwen wrote:it's absurd and shows that Cruddace is a far worse "fluff writer" than Ward will ever be.

Now that's really harsh!

Kanluwen wrote:

Alkasyn wrote:
So you're saying that Cadia's PDF is not a Planetary Defence Force, but a planetary defence force, and the spelling (sorry, not spelling, capitalization, LOL) makes a difference worth fighting for 4 pages.

You're right. You win the Internetz. Gratz.

Since you keep cropping up and sniping at me, I'm going to assume you have some kind of grudge. This amuses me greatly, but I figure rather than engaging you in the same kind of shenanigans you're up to, I will instead educate you and anyone else who was confused by my point.

I dont have anything against you I just don't like people who are full of themselves and can never admit they're wrong, instead referring to strawmans.(i.e falling back to semantics, ortography and grammer to prove a point) I also dislike trolls.

Do you fit that definition?

Btw, I don't need you educating me. Cheers

KamikazeCanuck wrote:He is the male Melissia.

That would explain why they keep holding hands on the ignore list

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Simply put, the problem is that Cruddace just copy/pasted the majority of fluff on Stormtroopers from the Codex from two editions ago. The Codex prior to now was quite light on fluff for unit types.

3E and 4E were both not very thick with fluff, at least from the books I've seen - so I actually welcome having older fluff resurface. Also makes the setting look more consistent than rewriting stuff all the time...

That's the thing. There WAS no fluff, outside of novels, on Stormtroopers in 4E.

Kanluwen wrote:There has been more than one reference to Stormtrooper Regiments in the Black Library's stuff.

Probably. But Black Library also wants to tell us that (amongst other lulzworthy things) Marines use multilasers, Terminators do backflips, Sisters have something like a "time off" and the Ecclesiarchy has its own battleships. "Alternative worlds", as George Mann said.

Yes, let's throw the completely ridiculous examples out there as the definitive examples, right?
There's a reason nobody, who wants to be taken seriously in any discussion about fluff, cites Cain or Goto for fluff references.

Kanluwen wrote:It's also been mentioned in, as I mentioned, Orders of Battle before.

But that's Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. Different story (though I'd be curious about how they are recruited). Or do you have other examples?

Kanluwen wrote:Yes, let's throw the completely ridiculous examples out there as the definitive examples, right?
There's a reason nobody, who wants to be taken seriously in any discussion about fluff, cites Cain or Goto for fluff references.

"Taking seriously" is in the eye of the beholder - the people who do cite them simply do so because they really do believe what they say, and if I'd get a Euro for every time somebody cites Cain as proof for why Sisters are "available" I could probably retire.

I've thrown in these obviously ricidulous examples in as a (hopefully) indisputable demonstration that BL books aren't really reliable when it comes to fluff, and that they claim a lot of stupid things due to a deliberate lack of oversight (if what the authors say is true) on part of GW. Even Abnett makes mistakes, however minor they are, so who's to say that whatever novel you are referring to should be closer to the truth than the actual GW Codex?

Oftentimes, these minor mistakes are simply not perceived as such. Be it because that book's author is a personal favorite, or because that book's idea (subjectively) sounds better than what GW says. This is a trap that all people who like to research canon in a setting, me and you included, are prone to falling into.

Kanluwen wrote:Negatory. The Orders of Battle mention Stormtrooper Company units, not their specific affiliation.

Which OoB do you mean, now? You said Inquisitorial Storm Troopers before. Anyways, unit numbers don't really have any significance.

Kanluwen wrote:Armageddon, whilst considered important, may not have been considered the appropriate place for an offensively oriented unit(the Stormtroopers) to be utilized in a defensive role.

Space Marines aren't exactly defensively oriented either, and Armageddon saw about 15.000 of them. If Storm Troopers would be a numerous resource, they would likely be deployed simply to "have the boots on the ground", so to say. There's no reason to hold them back unless they were rare.

Plus, it's not like there wouldn't still be the "cop out" with the nigh-identical but much more numerous Grenadier formations.

Kanluwen wrote:Rather than the intelligent thing and utilizing the Multimelta Sentinel in existence from FW, he creates the Hellhound.

Waitwaitwait. Isn't the Hellhound as old as 2E? I remember having loved it in the ancient Final Liberation PC game already, and that's from '97.

Kanluwen wrote:Rather than use the Vulture, he creates the Vendetta. And of course, he also resurfaced the asinine "hotshot" lasgun.

I'll give you those two - though these are still just our subjective opinions. I still consider Ward's stuff way more offensive.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:He is the male Melissia.

Damn, and here I thought I was being kind of harsh. He likes his fluff, he's not fanatically in love with it.