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@Grunt13: That would actually be a nice touch, since it would even further distance the unit from being CC-squad-killing focused.

Perhaps the ones in the "Shadow Caste" (Outcastes?)were disgraced prisoners or criminals that have been "Modified" to become beneficial to the Greater Good yet again? (Sorta lifting the criminal rehabilitation thing from Starcraft marines here). They would be relatively unknown in most armies (0-1), secretive and with their own agenda (Non-scoring). Maybe make them a specialized Stealth suit squad, in that they get the Failsafe Detonator in addition to melee prowess or something? I have no idea how well that would balance though. Your idea is a cool one, and would fit really well with the established fluff. Thanks! (Gonna brainstorm on this one... )

Darkjediben wrote:
Kanluwen, I'd advise you to stop perusing the proposed rules forums. The people on here...get a bit attached to their sometimes crazy ideas, and while they ask for criticism, they don't always take it well.

It's not just Proposed Rules. You see it when people start writing fluff for their armies too.

yamgrenade wrote:I asked for criticism, not "TLDR it sucks." What Rennoc did what critisim, what Kan did was flaming. I can deal with it; I'm not gonna ask for this thread to be closed because of somebody who doesn't like this idea.

I don't actually recall anyone saying "TLDR it sucks."

So criticism is saying that the idea is "perfect but with problems"? I see.

Just to make you happy and keep you content:
There is basically nothing that strikes me as 'Tau' for the concept you've given. I've noticed this in every thread that crops up regarding giving the Tau a CC unit, and I always say the same thing. It doesn't work fluffwise or in terms of balance for the most part. It's too much like the attempts to have Power Armored Guard or Arbites as dedicated Guard CC units. It's not good.

If you want "assassins"? Then you want Fire Warriors equipped and outfitted for it. Pathfinders, who are part of the Fire Caste, train for assassination and extraction missions. The Stealth Suit operators as well perform this role.
There is no need for "criminals" (whom according to the fluff are killed or 'reeducated') with Failsafe Detonators. There's no need for guys carrying swords all over the place, etc.
Farsight and his Dawn Blade are a unique exception to the rule when it comes to Tau having power weapons for now. More than that and it gets slightly 'huh?', leading to all sorts of confusion.

If it were me to come up with an 'assassin' unit, it would be Stealth Suits with railrifles.

@Kanluwen: Thanks for the constructive criticism. I think I finally see some of the reasons you originally (or still do) dislike this idea.

I think our original idea was to try to get a unit that was as effective overall in CC as kroot (able to kill an approximately equal number of squads of the same rough power level for about the same points cost), with equal survivability.
Given the smaller unit size, we attempted to make them harder to kill so they'd require approximately the same shooting to destroy as a Kroot squad (and it seemed making them harder to shoot was better than giving them extra wounds or a higher armor save).
However, I do fully admit that they may be far OP at the moment to be able to do that, and should be nerfed to the kroot power level.

As for why not stick with just kroot, I personally would like a CC alternative for Tau besides kroot. Not something better than kroot, but a choice that doesn't involve (in fluff terms) my trained, noble, loyal warriors to rely on cannabalistic wealth-loving mercenaries for their safety.
Tau only have Kroot for a CC option (Drone Squads don't work well as CC units, and it's inefficient to make suits do that when they could do shooting far better.), so we're trying to make there be 2 options instead of 1 for a Tau CC unit/bullet magnet.

And the assassin idea would work perfect with the regular rulebook for pathfinders if Rail Rifles ignored cover or something similar, since they're worthless atm (Plus, that'd make Sniper Drone teams a more attractive option too).
Heck, make the "assassins" an elite choice of BS4 pathfinders with stealth fields and the (better) rail rifles, and you'd be set.

If you want a CC alternative for Tau, you're playing the wrong army.

The Tau's approach to close combat isn't close combat. It's close quarters battle, utilizing withering firepower from Pulse Carbines to keep enemies from being able to charge effectively.

Also, Kroot aren't cannibals. Cannibals eat their own kind, they're just carnivores.

Eh, cannabalistic or not, it's still kinda eerie.

As for the "cc alternative," we're not trying to make something better than kroot, it's simply something instead of kroot. This is purely for fluff reasons, and is not designed to make a Tau army a melee army whatsoever (Which they can do by spamming kroot units already).

Plus, why shouldn't Tau have a few options between (limited effectiveness) CC units? No other army is so strong in one area (Shooting) and so weak in another (CC), and while I'm not saying that the army should be homogenized between those two (Which would lose the flavor of the Tau playstyle), given that 40K has recently become "Shooting is just what you do en-route to Assaulting," even Tau, the shootiest army in the book, have trouble not getting swamped in CC if they don't have at least one CC unit.

This unit is to simply give the Tau's CC aspect (Previously only kroot blobs) a choice: A large blobby CC meatshield which can be used ineffectively to be on the offensive, or a smaller more fragile unit which can be used ineffectively to be on the defensive. The new unit won't be powerful to lead your forces in assaults, but it will be powerful enough to force your opponent to dedicate fire at it, drawing fire in the same way the Kroot absorb it.

(On a side note, Pulse Carbines? Really? Pinning does nil against Fearless units, and unless you're wasting precious markerlights on the squad that's going to try to assault you AND isn't fearless, a Ld check is pretty easy for most armies to pass. And if you do use markerlights, there were probably at least 2 or 3 better targets they could have been used on. It works, but it's not a very reliable strategy)

If you don't want to use Kroot, just use counts as.

Seriously, I've seen plenty of people make 'Feral Warriors' and use the 'Eaters of the Dead' rule to represent them making sure all their enemies really are dead.

(On a side note, Pulse Carbines? Really? Pinning does nil against Fearless units, and unless you're wasting precious markerlights on the squad that's going to try to assault you AND isn't fearless, a Ld check is pretty easy for most armies to pass. And if you do use markerlights, there were probably at least 2 or 3 better targets they could have been used on. It works, but it's not a very reliable strategy)

The game does not represent the fluff accurately.

Say it with me. The game does not represent the fluff accurately.

Carbines, in fluff, are what Fire Caste Teams use to lay down withering hails of fire in close. They also have auxiliary grenade launchers that make this tactic much nastier.

Kanluwen wrote:The game does not represent the fluff accurately.

Say it with me. The game does not represent the fluff accurately.

Carbines, in fluff, are what Fire Caste Teams use to lay down withering hails of fire in close. They also have auxiliary grenade launchers that make this tactic much nastier.

Agreed. Apparently they use itty bitty grenades that make people duck instead of die. Why they aren't rending or have the option for a (weak) sm. blast template is beyond me.

As for coutns as, I would except my inner fluff bunny dislikes the idea of sudden hordes of Tau taking up weapons (Pot commenting on color of kettle here, but still). What's the Eaters of the Dead rule?

darkPrince010 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The game does not represent the fluff accurately.

Say it with me. The game does not represent the fluff accurately.

Carbines, in fluff, are what Fire Caste Teams use to lay down withering hails of fire in close. They also have auxiliary grenade launchers that make this tactic much nastier.

Agreed. Apparently they use itty bitty grenades that make people duck instead of die. Why they aren't rending or have the option for a (weak) sm. blast template is beyond me.

Because they're photon grenades. Grenades aren't necessarily killy weapons, but they do a damn good job of deterring people from assaulting.

As for counts as, I would except my inner fluff bunny dislikes the idea of sudden hordes of Tau taking up weapons (Pot commenting on color of kettle here, but still).

Considering that some of the Tau fanbois put the Fire Caste at being 100% militarization, by that rationale there should be thousands of Fire Warriors for every Guardsman.
Just have the Fire Warriors wearing stripped down armor, ragged looking cloaks, and Kroot Rifles like they did during the Tyranid incursions.

What's the Eaters of the Dead rule?

Something that no longer exists, apparently. I had to look in the Tau Empire book again, but I'm not sure where it was anymore.
Basically it was a rule that made it so Kroot had to stop whenever they killed someone in CC.

Hmm, sounds kinda like the old Minotaur version of Bloodgreed. I may use this idea of couts-as for my FW, since I have a metric shitton of them (I bought the army off of a friend). Just give them blades, make spike/blade covered drones for hounds, and guys riding drones with a big generic gun underneath for krootox (Maybe. I dunno if krootox are worth it.).

If this was to happen then only Farsight should be able to command them as he trains soilders to be good at CC. Also with only T3 they will be stomped to easily should have T4 and S4. They should be a breakayay outcast faction who no longer belive in the greater good and they are ex-FW. Also they should only be allowed to be in a Farsight army as the Tau belive that CC is barbaric, primal and dishounorable so it goes against thier belifes. Which is why the ethreals us honour blades because, they are fast swift and not beutal providing a clean cut with minimal mess.

Why would they even come in with the main Tau force?
They seem like a unit that would set up in a piece of area terrain,
and then pop out mid-battle and do dastardly things to some unsuspecting enemy unit.

Also, since they are used to AMBUSHING LARGE BEASTS IN CONFINED SPACES, maybe you should give them some special bonus when they charge an MC?
or
fusion charges (Tau-ified melta bombs)

Finally, giving them Ethereal caste weapons seems a little odd, since ethereals are, well SLIGHTLY different?

That's just my bit anyway


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, 24 individuals do NOT comprise a large enough gene pool for 3,000 years.

Maybe they should be somewhat (or a whole lot) abnormal, maybe larger, faster, and stronger, because of inbreeding,
but not as smart (or not able to use ranged weapons at all)

i.e

WS 4 S4 T4

BS 1 or 2

cannot use transports

cannot be joined by ICs

@redkeyboard: We were thinking that they may have filtered a bit into the normal armies of the empire in limited numbers, but are only mainly used by Farsight ( So normal armies can get 0-1 of them, and Farsight can have unlimited or 0-3 or something)

@warmaster: Hmmm. The ambushing out of a piece of terrain is cool. Maybe use it like a modified version of Infiltrate in that they can set up in terrain a certain distance away (But declared, so they're not hidden like ymgarl genestealers).

I do like the MC bonus, but perhaps the melta charges would work better since Tau usually have enough sheer firepower to drop an MC without their help, and this would make them a good threat to vehicles too.

I like the S3 T3 but boosting S using a weapon, since S4 T3 is a kroot, and S4 T4 makes them as tough as a space marine or crisis suit (just a smidge OP). However, I fully agree that their BS should be crappier due to the inbreeding and the no transports/IC rule seems good as well.

Thanks for the feedback!

EDIT: didn't realize the conversation had moved on that far. Please ignore.

@Redkeyboard

As prince said, giving them an upgraded S and T makes little sense fluffwise or gamewise. Also Tau honor the Kroot because of their CC skill, It would be a similar case here. We do give farsight 3 units max while non farsight armies can have only one.

@Warmastersolon

That is a great idea. Maybe instead of declaring where they are, use something similar to outflank where you declare 2 peices of terrain and roll like with outflank? That makes it so that people don't just avoid the one that they hide in, or camp it with a counter unit. As for the ambush thing, I have what I think is a pretty good idea- When they are in area terrain, they always strike first the first turn of assault (regardless of grenades) and the enemy loses their extra charge attack (They are caught unaware and suddenly have to defend themselves) They could also ambush the turn they are revealed.

I like the Ambush idea. This makes them a huge threat vs small squishy squads that hide in cover for the 4+ save (I'm thinking heavy weapon squads, scout squads, etc.), and makes them much harder to be assaulted while in cover. Swarm armies like Nids or Orks won't give a crap if they go first or last, so they can still be assaulted by blobs, but suddenly Assault Marines and the like will start avoiding trees and such more than normal

For the deployment, I'm thinking the picking of 2 pieces of terrain would be good, especially since both you and your opponnent will have to plan for either terrain being the deployment one.

Scout Squads don't need anything more threatening them. They're overpriced in many cases(looking at you Dark Angels Codex. Overpriced AND an Elite choice. Bah.)

Heavy Weapon Squads, etc as well are fairly easy to counter with the things that already exist and would be countering them(Stealth Teams or Pathfinders with railrifles), so that's unnecessary.

Kanluwen wrote:Scout Squads don't need anything more threatening them. They're overpriced in many cases(looking at you Dark Angels Codex. Overpriced AND an Elite choice. Bah.)

Heavy Weapon Squads, etc as well are fairly easy to counter with the things that already exist and would be countering them(Stealth Teams or Pathfinders with railrifles), so that's unnecessary.

I wasn't targeting the scouts or heavy weapons, I just thought it might make them a bit more appealing.

The whole problem with the concept now is that, again, you're treading on toes of things that already exist.

They're bad "Scouts" because the Tau already have Scouts in the form of Pathfinders.
They're bad "Skirmishers" because Pathfinders fulfill the same role.
They're bad "Stealth" units because (obviously here ) the Stealth Suits fill this role.

Rather than design a new caste, let's just see about maybe making a "NextGen" Fire Warrior Team, eh?

The problem with Pathfinders being "Scouts" or "Skirmishers" is that you're taking avaluable unit with a Dumbfish handicap, and spending more points on it to force it into a seperate role (From fire support to... contesting objectives?).
Also, railrifles are nowhere near as effective as they should be (Thanks to 5th's cover everywhere), so in essence you're buying 12 pt fire warriors with carbines and a mandatory devilfish. If Pathfinders had Move through Cover or could fire their markerlights while moving, they'd be much better as mobile harassers.

As for Stealth teams, the proposed Shadow Warirors won't put out a tenth of the dakka they would, but could handle the close combat a lot better. We're trying to force the player to choose between a weak (total wounds-wise), high firepower suit unit designed to threaten at med range with a unit of tougher (wounds-wise), low firepower but high CC ability SW designed to threaten at close range.

I fully appreciate that it's splitting a fine hair, but I think giving the Tau an option for a non-Kroot CC unit that won't take an elite slot (If the SW are troops and iirc) but can still harass enemy squads would be a decent option.

The big rumor right now is that Pathfinders are losing the "Fishcap".

Tau Empire was written when universal rules weren't given out like candy, and Markerlights aren't meant to be fired while moving. Look up how modern laser designators for airstrikes and the like are used and you'll see what I mean. They're big, bulky things that you have to leave on the target for a long time.

And like I said earlier, if you want an option for a non-Kroot CC unit--then Tau is the wrong army to play, and using a Tau basis for it is the wrong way to go. I say the same thing about Guard, so it's not just a Tau thing.

The closest thing you should be seeing is Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines or some kind of 'Pulse Shotgun' equivalent.

Ugh, finally. Stupidest damn rule tactically even if it was fluffy. I think I agree Tau have skirmisher units options, it's just hampered by Pulse Carbines sucking and the abundance of Fearless in 5th.

Since you seem dead-set against the Shadow Warriors as part of the Tau army (Which is completely fine, and I understand why ), how would you feel about them being a separate army?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/388109.page

I'd feel about as accepting of them as a separate army as part of the Tau.

They don't fit. There's nothing unique or redeeming about them.

When you make things up for 40k, don't simply think "Oh man that's awesome!". Also think about "Would this fit? Is it necessary?".

It's fun to make awesome things, but in many cases these awesome things can already be represented in other ways.

I guess the "Is it necessary/unique?" part kinda bugs me, since there's 10^n Space Marine chapters, most of which are simply different color schemes, a fancy name for a gun or two, and a logo.

As for "fitting," I guess I'm having trouble seeing what would "fit" and what wouldn't, as 40K and it's universe has so many contradictions, retcons, and wtf elements it's hard to evaluate one thing as more "fitting" than another (The joekaro, for example. That's an example of something that was awkwardly crammed into the canon so someone could field an orangutan back in 2nd ed. Does that "fit" the grimdark setting as well as Space Marines or the Tyranids?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess I'm asking what do you think would be good, non-minor improvements to something like Tau that would fit? I know there are some minor rule tweaks that would help, but do you have any ideas for larger changes for the army as a whole? (Not trying to be an ass or nix your ideas. I just want to see what stuff you think would fit better so I can figure out where I've crossed the boundaries for mine )

darkPrince010 wrote:I guess the "Is it necessary/unique?" part kinda bugs me, since there's 10^n Space Marine chapters, most of which are simply different color schemes, a fancy name for a gun or two, and a logo.

There's hundreds of Space Marine Chapters, many of which are unique in the way that they field things. The problem is that the tabletop doesn't always necessarily reflect this.
I'm kind of biased in that I play Dark Angels, the army that everyone keeps wanting rolled into the main Codex. Deathwing was, at one point, unique in that it could field more Terminators than any army out there. With the outset of Loganwing, Draigowing, and Knightwing--that uniqueness is gone. So what made Dark Angels unique is now gone.

As for "fitting," I guess I'm having trouble seeing what would "fit" and what wouldn't, as 40K and it's universe has so many contradictions, retcons, and wtf elements it's hard to evaluate one thing as more "fitting" than another (The Jokaero, for example. That's an example of something that was awkwardly crammed into the canon so someone could field an orangutan back in 2nd ed. Does that "fit" the grimdark setting as well as Space Marines or the Tyranids?)

The Jokaero do not "fit" the grimdark setting, just like the Tau in their early incarnation didn't fit it that well. The Jokaero were introduced before 2nd edition from what I know of, when 40k was still very much a tabletop RPG.

However, the thing to remember is that the Jokaero aren't actually a 'race' or a major power in and of themselves. They're essentially hyperintelligent primates that have an innate knack for creating machinery. There's no explanation for it, beyond they just know.

I guess I'm asking what do you think would be good, non-minor improvements to something like Tau that would fit? I know there are some minor rule tweaks that would help, but do you have any ideas for larger changes for the army as a whole? (Not trying to be an ass or nix your ideas. I just want to see what stuff you think would fit better so I can figure out where I've crossed the boundaries for mine )

In terms of adding things?
I'd break up Fire Warrior teams into two types.
Fire Warrior Support Teams(with Pulse Rifles, Markerlights, etc)
and
Fire Warrior Assault Teams. Pulse Carbines, grenades, Shield Drones, et al.

That's the biggest thing I can think of right now. I don't spend much time thinking about how to make Tau more 'effective' based on the current book, simply because there's a new book in the works and we have no real clue what will be in there.

I could accept making them separate FW squads, maybe putting them inside of the assault squad. The FW could shoot on the way up to the enemy while the SW give them CC survivability.

Kanluwen wrote:
In terms of adding things?
I'd break up Fire Warrior teams into two types.
Fire Warrior Support Teams(with Pulse Rifles, Markerlights, etc)
and
Fire Warrior Assault Teams. Pulse Carbines, grenades, Shield Drones, et al.

That's the biggest thing I can think of right now. I don't spend much time thinking about how to make Tau more 'effective' based on the current book, simply because there's a new book in the works and we have no real clue what will be in there.

I actually really like the sound of this. It would show the development of the Tau in understanding that close quarters fighting is a necessity against some foes and in some environments, but would be in keeping with their distaste for close quarters. The issue with trying to add a CC Tau is that the Kroot were designed entirely with that purpose in mind - the whole 'they really like making intergalactic friends' fluff point is solely there to allow for the Tau to hate CC and still have assault units in their army.

I also like that idea. It might overlap/make superflous the pathfinders, but it would also keep the Tau choices all one-job, instead of making FW teams ranged OR carbine-danger-close.

And I realize we have a book coming, but I can't wait that long (1 year? 2? Another decade?... )

I was hoping it was next in line after necrons (Like it should be) But I hear its gonna be CSM....