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grayspark wrote:When I think of a "Shadow Caste" I think more of a secret Caste created to watch over the others and ''remove'' the trouble-makers in the other Castes. Secret Police kind of a thing.

Definitely not Fire-Warriors that all of a sudden decide to pick up a sword because of being stranded on a world.


Going with the name of "Shadow Warrior" why not give them the same Stealth Generator as the Stealth Suits.

Also, as others have said before, you should really make better fluff to support this rather than just "because I said so".

Farsight Enclaves attract many more of these because of his tactical philosophy, and as such get 0-3 instead

Also this, they don't focus on Close-Combat, they were just forced to once, and then broke away from the rest of the Empire and their leader found a powerful sword. They still fight a lot like the Tau Empire, just with more of a focus on elite battlesuit forces.

There are no Tau trouble makers except for Farsight, who doesn't really do much. As for their creation, I guess a lot of people don't get this- They had 3 thousand years to take a different path than the current Fire Warriors.

I was thinking the generator would be an upgrade for the 'ui, just haven't gotten to it, thanks for reminding me.

Also, it clearly says that Farsight extensively trains his soldiers in CC in the Dex.

"The Tau abhor close combat" that is straight out of the codex.

Abhor is defined as "to Loath entirely" by The Websters...

So.... what makes you think they have any place having ninjas?

Plus... Kroot do this job.

Yes, the Tau that learned to hate CC hate it, I don't disagree.
I know what abhor means.
Kroot do not do this job.

yamgrenade wrote:Yes, the Tau that learned to hate CC hate it, I don't disagree.
I know what abhor means.
Kroot do not do this job.

They kinda do...
Light skirmishers that are effective in CC and used as infiltrators...

More than anything, the kroot are meat sheilds.

The Tau have had three thousand years of accelerated evolution to train and adapt to ranged combat instead of melee. This offshoot has had the same amount of time in accelerated evolution in an environment that promoted melee combat over ranged combat (A confined jungle over open plains), and as such are the only T'au apart from the (relatively) "looney-bin" Farsight to enjoy doing so.

These guys are an alternative to Kroot, not a replacement. Kroot are effective in CC only by sheer weight of numbers, and as such have poor saves (apart from cover) and average combat skill. Their large numbers are what make them effective and encourage use as a screen for the FW/suit firing lines. If they take a couple casualties, it won't severely affect their ability to deal with enemies in CC.
Shadow Warriors, on the other hand, have good (not amazingly terminator lightning-claws awesome, but good) CC ability, and slightly better survivability from shooting. In return, they are fewer in number, preventing their use as effective meat shields. Instead, their targets are CC-vulnerable or weakened squads, and they can maneuver across the board much faster than the Kroot can thanks to the Move through Cover, Fleet, and Hit and Run. The smaller numbers means that they will be more vulnerable to shooting, but their greater combat ability and Ld-modifiers means that they will have to lose a sizeable percentage of the squad before they cease being a threat, approximately the same percentage of Kroot that would need to be lost from a squad to make that ineffective. Tau player will now have an option between smaller, faster elite CC units or slower, larger average CC units.
Kroot are basically Tau boyz squads, while these guys are designed to be more along the lines of small squads of Howling Banshees.

Well put but howling banshees would tear them apart

Ashamed for this...but...bump

OK here are some ideas on the revisions. I would change their size to 6-12 so they more closely match other sizes. I like the shock boas. Maybe you can give them honor blades over Katanas. Why can you only have one unit of them? Seems odd. Sense you are dead set on making them a new caste, describe them more. Tell us what they look like, explain why they remain their own caste and are not folded up into the fire, ect. Just some more fluff.

Ok, I'll re-work the fluff some.

Changing unit size is good, I just wanted to make sure people didn't call them Kroot Clones.

The 1 squad is so people don't spam them, which would change the feel and play-style of the Tau.

I'll get working on the fluffy bits day after tomorrow, too tired right now and traveling tomorrow.

I would say if you give the option for Ethereals to have a Fire Warrior or a Shadow Warrior veteran squad, give the Shadow Warrior veterans +1 WS, +1 I, and +1 Ld (With the 'ui having the normal bonus on top of that). Give them an additional cost of 2-3 pts on top of their current costs, and have the unit keep their Stealth Field ability with the Ethereal. That way, the enemy has to make the Night Fighting to shoot the unit, but they are not performing as the fighty unit they were designed as (Causing the Tau player to weigh additional protection for the Ethereal for the points cost of a basically non-combat unit).
This would allow for the option of making an Ethereal survivable without sticking him in a Dumbfish, but force the Tau player to bunch the Ethereal and the units you want to get the Morale reroll to be nearby (The 50-50 split army on opposite sides of the board won't get the Ld reroll due to needing to roll the Night-Fighting to see the Ethereal. Never thought that rule made sense until now... ).

Hey, that's a pretty cool idea.

Plus, templates scatter 3d6, but can still hit, so they'll die just as quickly to pie plates 1/3 of the time, and the rest of the time it'll hit the Tau units that will be clumped nearby to get the morale bonus...

That is a rather nice idea. It also kind of goes with idea of making them honor guards. (I am not dropping that bone quite yet.)

Exactly. I was thinking that since these Tau might have a more primitive or tribalistic culture, the idea of a blood oath to the Ethereals who would have brought food, better weapons, and better technology to them would be considered honored, and that this would encourage the best of the Erra caste to volunteer as his elite guards.
Plus, there's always the strongly-hinted mind-controlly aspect of Ethereals on Tau in general, and if you decided you wanted to be insane, you could even toss the Ethereal's Honor guard into combat on purpose (Since he's a low I, high risk but adequate melee unit, and he could buy drones and other goodies for them)

I think that the fluff definitely needs some work. No matter how much you put it off about how it says THIS in the codex, or it happened like THAT there should be definitive fluff that actually meshes with the established background of the faction you are trying to tie it into. While it is true that two of the same species will evolve differently in different environments, there should still be legitimate reasons as to why this class does not see the ways of their lost cousins and go with their way, or vice-versa. Also, if they evolved to use stealth and close combat against their natural predators, why would they view strange visitors to their planet any different? Surely they would not just betray thousands of years of evolving to use the darkness and guerilla tactics just because some new creature shows up. Personally, I don't care either way if you feel the Tau need a CC unit, but the Fluff Nazi within screams for justification. BTW, I hate kroot, so you won't get a "Use Kroot instead! It's what they're for!" from me, as I personally would never use kroot in any function whatsoever.

Hoo boy: Here goes my best attempt at a Codex-style fluff entry:

+++
BEGIN EMERGENCY VOX LOG
TELEPATHIC DUCT: -N/A-
REF: -N/A-
AUTHOR: Machine-Spirit Designate BETA-583
REPORT TRANSMITTED: Explorator-Class Land’s Vision
DESTINATION: -ANY-
DATE:801.M35
+++

-SEVERE WARP TREMORS DETECTED-

+Damage report initialized…+

Hull Integrity: DAMAGED.
Life Support: DAMAGED.
Thruster Array: DAMAGED.
Weapons Systems: DESTROYED.
Weapon Redundancies: DESTROYED.
Navigational Array: DAMAGED.
Landing Struts: DESTROYED.

+Detecting Crew Life Signs…+
-MINIMAL-

+Proximity Sensors Are Detecting A Nearby Planetoid.+

+Navigational Array Finding Coordinates.+
-ERROR.-

+Atmospheric Analysis Computing...+
-Atmosphere: Approximately 70:30 N2:O2 Mix.-

+Navigational Redundant System Calculating Velocity …+
-Velocity: 4,500 KPS.-

+Navigational Redundant System Calculating Angle Of Approach …+
-Angle Of Approach From Perpendicular: 3 Degrees.-

-WARNING: 98.5% LIKELIHOOD OF DESTRUCTIVE IMPACT WITH PLANETOID.-

+Initializing Angel Of Approach Increase…+
-ERROR: Mass Of Transport In Excess Of Necessary Limits For Maneuver.-

+Proximity Sensors Have Detected Impact With Atmosphere.+
-Atmosphere: 71.583% N2, 28.045% O2, 0.118% Argon, 0.035% Carbon, 0.009% Helium, 0.210% Unknown Gases.-

-WARNING: IMPACT WITH PLANETOID IN 10 SECONDS.-

+Jettisoning Stasis Cargo Section.+

-WARNING: IMPACT WITH PLANETOID IN 7 SECONDS.-

+Initializing Angel Of Approach Increase…+

-WARNING: IMPACT WITH PLANETOID IN 4 SECONDS.-

-ERROR: Thruster Output Velocity Insufficient For Maneuver.-

-WARNING: IMPACT WITH PLANETOID IN 1 SECONDS.-

+++END EMERGENCY VOX LOG+++


Of the three dozen T’au that were collected by the explorers of the Adeptus Mechanicus vessel Land’s Vision, only two dozen survived the crash-landing onto the jungle death world δT-11035B, later to be renamed Erra, or Shadow. This moon was previously surveyed by the Land’s Vision on their way to Tau and dismissed as a jungle world devoid of ores or resources to further the cause of the Imperial war effort, with the lead Techpriest noting that the native fauna had a particular affinity for the servitor drones they had brought along to analyze the surface.

The T’au, separated from their tribes, wailed out in distress, and they nearly came to blows over old blood feuds when a local creature, a creature they later named an Or’au or Powerful Death, attacked the group, nearly killing them all. After their defeat of this creature and the ensuing feast, the remaining sixteen remaining T’au recognized their similarities, and tenuously agreed to a truce while they attempted to survive their new home.

While the first few months nearly exterminated the new immigrants, over the years the T’au learned the weapons and cunning needed to survive in the jungle they named Hui’wern, the Hidden Deception. No longer could they see their enemies and wait for their approach as on the open plains of Tau. Instead, they learned to conceal themselves completely from their prey, and stalk it before closing for the kill, as the close-hanging vines and jagged trunks made spears and bows nearly useless.

After centuries, the shaky ceasefire had become a bond of brotherhood, uniting the few tribes on Erra so they could rely on each other against the frequent dangers of their home. While squabbles and wars between the tribes did rage occasionally, the constant threats of the jungles meant that only the foolish squabbled for long.

After nearly three millennium, the Tau upon Erra discovered the art of metallurgy, far after their distant cousins on their home world. Scraping what little nodules of crude iron and crystals they could find from the creature-infested caves that were scattered beneath the jungle floor, they learned how to refine and process their new alloys, passing them down from father to son, and further purifying and improving upon the weapons of their ancestors before passing them on.

Greatest of the new metalworkers was the warrior Yanoi’ii, and before he died he not only had raised bladework from a craft to an art, but had also discovered several processes that allowed the Erra’la to incorporate venoms from their slain prey into their blades, allowing them to become even more useful and treasured against the fauna of Erra. For his contributions to the tribes, his descendants were nominated as chiefs, to rule on disputes and to lead the tribes into battle united against more formidable monsters of the forest.


A few decades after the end of the Third Sphere of Expansion, the ship Aun’va and the Children of Fio’tyr came across a small jungle moon near the edges of their borders, on the far side of the Tau Empire from the Damocles Gulf. When their scanners first reported the lifesigns of T’au on the surface below, they dispatched a rescue party to save the presumed crew of a crashed ship. It was only after three of the eight Shas’la that were sent to check for signs of wreckage were killed swiftly and silently by humanoid figures that the T’au on the Aun’va began to realize the true extent of their discovery.

Within weeks, a ship arrived carrying the Ethereal Aun’tae. Skilled at speaking with and reasoning with even the most erratic of the Tau Empire’s various allies, Aun’tae relished the opportunity he was about to receive. Upon arriving on the surface though, Aun’tae heard the cries of an injured T’au,a nd the sounds of a struggling roaring beast. Bursting into a clearing, the Ethereal came upon the latest descendant of Yanoi’ii, Karra’ii, under attack by an Or’au.

As the Ethereal’s Shas’vre guards were unable to fire at the beast attacking Karra’ii, the Aun’tae gracefully dove forward, and rolled underneath the beast, thrusting his honor blade through the creature’s chest. After she got to her feet, Karra’ii regarded the Ethereal for a moment, and then in a swift motion drew a dagger and grabbed the Ethereals hand, tightly grasping the blade between their palms. Upon finishing the blood bonding with Aun’tae, the ethereal began to explain the full extent of the Greater Good and the Tau on their homeworld. Seeing an opportunity to escape the daily living hell of Erra, Karra’ii pledged the Erra’la in support of their long-lost cousins, and joined Aun’tae upon his ship.


Since that day, the Erra’la have migrated to the separate T’au septs, joining and melding with their brothers and their strategies. While some Shas’la may consider them to be erratic or primitive, none can dispute the grace at which they can execute Kauyon, and the ability for their blades to swiftly bring the Mont’ka upon an unsuspecting foe. In keeping with their traditions, the Erra’la send their young unblooded warriors to the jungle moon, alone and with only their ancestral blade, in order so that they may prove themselves against the beasts of their ancestors, and return a respected warrior.

Excellent Job I'll put it up


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alfhedil wrote:I think that the fluff definitely needs some work. No matter how much you put it off about how it says THIS in the codex, or it happened like THAT there should be definitive fluff that actually meshes with the established background of the faction you are trying to tie it into. While it is true that two of the same species will evolve differently in different environments, there should still be legitimate reasons as to why this class does not see the ways of their lost cousins and go with their way, or vice-versa. Also, if they evolved to use stealth and close combat against their natural predators, why would they view strange visitors to their planet any different? Surely they would not just betray thousands of years of evolving to use the darkness and guerilla tactics just because some new creature shows up. Personally, I don't care either way if you feel the Tau need a CC unit, but the Fluff Nazi within screams for justification. BTW, I hate kroot, so you won't get a "Use Kroot instead! It's what they're for!" from me, as I personally would never use kroot in any function whatsoever.

Glad somebody else hates kroot Also glad somebody else understands how they are different.

That is so much better than what was there before, although truthfully, the stuff up top gives me a headache, but it is what it is. The only thing that slightly bothers me is the low number of them actually creating society out of near-extinction, but it's Warhams, there's worse things in official fluff. Kudos on the improvement, I'll leave you guys to furthering the rules, as I don't play Tau. Want to, but can't afford to, due to the way I play the game. Good luck with the rest of the entry.

I actually realized it was a crappy number, but I wanted something reasonable (Why would the Adeptus Mechanicus take hundreds of xenos on their ship and sully the Emperor's devices?), and I wanted it as a multiple of 8. Perhaps 80 or 64 or something might be better, I dunno. Whatever you guys think sounds appropriate.

As for the Vox transmission, they do tend to be kinda headache inducing, and I'm glad I was able to replicate it. Thanks for the input

Changed 16 to 24 in the numbers, best this I could think of doing.

Sounds good. I know irl, there were some human genetic bottlenecks of 100 individuals or less, so 24 sounds about appropriate. Also, feel free to change the stuff about poisoned blades to fit whatever you think would mesh well with how you'd want the katanas to work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My thoughts were to keep the katana as a Honor blade, maybe rename the daggers as "Or'au Fangs," and allow the Erra'vre that are the Ethereal bodyguards to buy an "Ancestral Blade" (+2 S like Honor Blade, but also Poisoned, or reroll to-hits, or something similar)

IMHO, I feel that these would make perfect assassins, But I have two problems:

1) The squads are too large. I felt that the squad size should be more like 1-5, and you may take 2 squads as elites choices.

2) My inner Genestealer is telling me that you are making a CC unit for a shooty army, like putting stealers with guard. Now while this wouldn't normally bother me, I have come upon a disturbing fact. when compared to a stealer, they are SIMILAR, BUT, when you compare 'nid's ranged capabilities to the tau, they are FAR apart. If you were to possibly assist multiple armies with handicaps, then I would feel better, but this is just my opinion.

Please do not react sharply, as I am just trying out some constructive criticism.

But this idea really would help the Tau. Good idea

1) Given the fragility of the squad, 1-5 would be killed pretty instantly. They have the same survivability of a Fire Warrior, so really they're gonna need some numbers to make a dent.
2) I understand this, but to be honest, these guys are no-where near genestealer grade- Far from it. While stealers could charge and rip apart termie squads, these guys are more tactical strike squads- They hit hard where it matters. They might not fit the army in some ways, but they do in some ways- A fragile unit that can still mess some face up when used correctly. Plus, there is no reason while a purely ranged army should have an unreasonable handicap in CC.

I agree with point 1, but would say only change it to 4-8 at the least, since yamgrenade is right in that they'll get shot to pieces pretty fast.

As for point 2, the main issue is no other army is as starkly "Only X and no Y" as tau are. Nids are very killy in CC, but have some solid, if not as powerful, shooting available to them. IG, while mainly shooty, have powerblobs and similar CC tactics they can use. Tau, however, have kroot. Don't like Kroot? Well, you can pick more kroot.
I understand your concern, and that's why we've kept their fragility and not turned them into genestealer-powered CC units (Since that would make them a handicap). Instead, we're trying to just give the Tau 2 options for a CC/Bullet Magnet besides Kroot.

Thanks for the feedback!

I'm with Kanluwen on this one. You guys saying "Blunt is fine as long as it's polite and civil"...really? Do you understand how "blunt comments" work? And stop QQing, grow up, it's a big bad internet out there, if somebody hurts your feelings because they don't like your idea on the internet, you're just gonna have to move on.

As far as the actual proposed rules here...just no. Tau have (theoretically) amazing shooting. Their handicap is that they are bad at CC (I'm talking game terms here). The fix for a shooty army that doesn't shoot as well as it should is not HURR GIVE EM SUPER COOL ELITE CLOSE COMBAT SCORING UNITS!!! The answer is to fix their darn shooting. It's entirely unbalanced to have a race with the best anti armor shooting in the game, on top of some of the most manueverable gun platforms then get scoring units that are all equipped with relic blades in CC. That's ridiculous, and if you don't see why that's unbalanced...well then I'm just glad that I don't ever have to play you with your "proposed rules".

Kanluwen, I'd advise you to stop perusing the proposed rules forums. The people on here...get a bit attached to their sometimes crazy ideas, and while they ask for criticism, they don't always take it well.

Criticism is fine. Feel free to say "Your idea sucks." Just be sure to add on "Your idea sucks, try improving it with X," or "Your idea sucks because of Y," as this makes it more clear why you disagree or ways you think something is out of place or OP, instead of just sounding like you're completely nixing any ideas you dislike.

As for the unit: They are not elite, or substantially better/equivalent to any other army's CC units. (If they are, we need to fix that) These units could take on an equal number of hormagaunts or vanilla boyz, maybe. That's about it. They will be killed by any other Assault-focused unit in the game, and probably have their ass handed to them by any non-assault units that have decent melee skills (IG blobs, kroot, Orks and SM come to mind). They're designed to kill stuff to the same degree as Kroot, for about the same points cost. Right now, Tau armies basically boil down to suit spam or Kroot spam, and this squad would allow Tau players to choose a CC bullet magnet other than Kroot.

As for your perceived disagreements with this idea, I can extrapolate from the post:
1) Shouldn't be as powerful (Definately trying to avoid making them genestealer equivalents. That'd be far too OP)
2) Shouldn't have the Honor Blades (I agree +2S may be a bit much, but do you think a more powerful CC weapon would be reasonable, or just the daggers or CC weapon/pistol is enough?)
3) Shouldn't be scoring (The stealth fields does give this unit high surviveability against ranged shooting, possibly making IG,Tau, or other shooty armies at a disadvantadge to shoot them off of the objective. I actually think this may have some merit: Perhaps make the Stealth Fields optional but if they take them, they lose the ability to be Scoring?)

Did I miss anything?

The people on here...get a bit attached to their sometimes crazy ideas, and while they ask for criticism, they don't always take it well.

I asked for criticism, not "TLDR it sucks." What Rennoc did what critisim, what Kan did was flaming. I can deal with it; I'm not gonna ask for this thread to be closed because of somebody who doesn't like this idea.

I think some of the criticism might be fed on the objection to the creation of another caste for the tau which something that creates a fundamental change to existing tau fluff. I would like to put in another possible fluff justification for the unit; after many conflicts with humans the tau have been expose to the imperium’s use of modified warriors in the form of imperial assassins. The tau then attempt to duplicate the imperium’s creation of these combatants. Tinkering with a fire warrior’s physiology would be a better explanation to the difference in stats and skills when compared to the normal tau warriors in my opinion.

Tau Evolution: In the tau codices and Xenology it is heavily implied that the tau biology, particularly the creation of the caste system, has been genetically influenced by an outside force. I think your explanation for the emergence of a new caste is at odds with this – tau not belonging with the established caste system might even be viewed as an abomination; remember tau are put to death if they attempt to mate outside their caste.

Rule wise: They seem fine to me in the sense that I wouldn’t might playing against them. I would recommend adding something as I don’t really see them accomplishing much in a game that can’t be achieved better using the kroot. Perhaps having an assassination, disruption or sabotage special rule. I would have them equipped with a pulse pistol and cc as standard – even orks and berserkers bring a gun into battle. I think the honor blade is too affiliated with the etherals, I would suggest making up a weapon unique to them instead of poaching from the etherals. Hope this was helpful.

yamgrenade wrote:

The people on here...get a bit attached to their sometimes crazy ideas, and while they ask for criticism, they don't always take it well.

I asked for criticism, not "TLDR it sucks." What Rennoc did what critisim, what Kan did was flaming. I can deal with it; I'm not gonna ask for this thread to be closed because of somebody who doesn't like this idea.

Kan doesn't feel this idea has merit. When he feels that he doesn't think any amount of constructive criticism can help.
Personally i feel each Race has their key fluff tool so to speak... with Tau it's either Farsight or Experimental technology with a healthy dose of a growing sense of the universe and the races they are finding.