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Alrighty. So I constantly see bits and pieces of math hammer for crisis suits thrown about, and claims that "Suit A" is more efficient at killing "Enemy" than "Suit B" is, and that "Wargear X" isn't worth the points for what you get. Being a man of science (LOL) I decided to take this matter into my own hands and (gasp) delve into the world of math hammer. Additionally I thought I might, rather than just offering raw data and watch the ensuing arguments (although that has it's own 'perks') offer some tactical analysis of the data, based on my experience playing Tau.

So since it feels like absolute overkill to slice and dice the numbers down to their very core, merely to win a game involving plastic spacemen, I will go into an overkill level of detail (and have a little fun).

Now. The Chart. But wait! First... how to read the chart. I use a few common Tau (or at least common to me) abbreviations, along with a few of my own, for the sake of your eyes. They are as follows, more or less in the order they appear on the chart:
GEQ - Guardsmen, and their equivalent
MEQ - Space Marines, and their equivalent
TEQ - Terminators, and their equivalent
TEQ /w SS - Terminators equipped with Stormshield
PPK - Points per kill
PR - Plasma Rifle
MP - Missile Pod
MT - Multitracker
TA - Targeting Array
HW - Hardwired
TL - Twinlinked
FB - Fusion Blaster
BC - Burst Cannon

All suits point costs are organized by taking the bare minimum required wargear to fill their hardpoints, with the exception of the Deathrain configuration, which it is generally accepted that if you aren't taking a TA, you are taking a Flamer (for cheapness, anti-horde, whatnot). If you really want to see the numbers for a TL MP + Blacksun Filter suit, which is technically 1 point cheaper, I can have a wolverine mailed to your home via the united parcel service (you pay shipping).

And finally... the data! Well, all us Xenos scum hate the Imperium, so I pitted our guns against, you guessed it, the imperium. We're going to look at how effective and how efficient each of the observed suit configurations is against a full range of what those port-a-potty worshipers are capable of throwing at us. The words "Dead" and "Kill" are used slightly loosely, truly referring to an unsaved wound, as other factors may weigh in to if the model shot actually dies (Multiple wound termies, FNP, etc).

I fully intend to update this thread with additional data as I go along, add additional foes, how FNP and the CIB rule affect your mileage, template weapons and more, but for now, I've taken some of the more common suit configurations and laid them out.

All shots are taken from 12" (rapid firing if capable). Flamers are out of range, and are included for PPK purposes (since they are the most commonly utilzed third hard point for Deathrains without Targeting Arrays)

Part I: Common Suit Loadouts


SHAZAM! Thats a lot of numbers, but never fear, I will break it down real easy for you. Let's see how the suits fare:

The Fireknife
Fireknives vs. GEQ
The versatile Fireknife is one of the most common suit configurations utilized, often touted for it's versatility in a take all comers situation. Versus GEQ's, the high strength and solid AP of both it's weapons truly shine, giving it the 2nd best number of unsaved wounds against GEQ's. The most common complaint with the Fireknife is cost. It's efficiency numbers are below average, cementing it into the role of "jack of all trades, master of none.". The Fireknife still weighs in as a decent choice vs. IG, since it's Missile Pod is a decent opponent to some of the light armor you will surely face, freeing up your heavy guns to shoot at the heavy tanks. It should be noted that all of the Fireknives weapons are instant death to GEQ models with multiple wounds.

Fireknives vs. MEQ
The inability of the Missile Pod to punk power armor really begins to show here, as the Fireknife's MEQ Dead drops significantly vice shooting at GEQ's. A substancial drop in efficiency is observed as well, making the Fireknife's Missile Pod seem more situational and exclusively for use in assisting Deathrain's with lightly armored transports, than actual engagement of what's inside those transports.

Fireknives vs. TEQ
The tactical dreadnought armor didn't get it's fancy pants name and high price tag for nothing. The Fireknife's missile pod is rendered all but useless, and as a result the effectiveness and efficiency of the Fireknife pattern crisis suit continue to suffer as the unit fired upon gets tougher.

Fireknives vs. TEQ /w SS
I'm a huge fan of the Helios pattern suit and I fully expected it to be the single best TEQ popper, but strangely it's not. The Fireknife is just as effective at killing stormshield equipped TEQ's as the Helios is... and neither of them are the best! Still.. for shooting at the some of the 'ardest boys the Imperium has to offer, the Fireknife actually comes out alright in the effectiveness category. With the same pricetag as a Helios suit, it's literally pound for pound just as effective, and capable of taking care of light armor at a distance to boot. Not a bad choice for this job.

Fireknife Summary
All in all the Fireknife is a very decent choice. It's versatility makes it decent against most foes tested against, and it has the added bonus of being able to toss MP shots at transports as well.

The Deathrain
Deathrain vs. GEQ
A lot of folks have begun spamming Deathrains. I see this a lot. They are seduced by the cheap pricetag and it's uncanny nack for popping transports. While this is all well and good (great, actually), the deathrain is actually terrible at killing anything other than light armor, which is why any more than say... 1 team of three, is kind of overkill. Although it is the second most efficient killer of GEQ's, it's also the least effective.

Deathrain vs. MEQ
Unable to puncture power armor, it's efficiency goes right out the window. Yeeeeshh. Find a softer target to shoot at.

Deathrain vs. TEQ
Rock bottom. The Deathrain lacks the volume of fire, or the quality of fire to turn TEQ's to dust. If you're facing the GK Draigo list, it's best to just leave the Deathrains on the shelf. Same goes for SS TEQs.

Deathrain Summary
The whole point of me including the Deathrain in this analysis which was obviously anti-infantry, was to illustrate its total impotence at the subject. The deathrain is a GREAT configuration and is VITAL in transport and light armor removal, however, it is important to note that once you've popped the parking lot, it's effectiveness has gone straight out the window. Tau require a combined arms strategy, and over-utilization of any one element spells defeat. Effectiveness vs. GEQ's will certainly skyrocket if you utilize flamers, but I will have to examine the effectiveness of flamers vs. MEQ's and TEQ's when I get into template weapons.

The Helios
Helios vs. GEQ
Helios suits are designed heavy infantry killers, as a result, they are effective, but inefficient against GEQ's and MEQ's. Additionally, they lack the volume of fire required to really put a dent in a GEQ sized squad.

Helios vs. MEQ
Helios suits kill MEQ's as easilly as they kill GEQ's. Think about that! Power armor popping is where a helios suit shines the brightest, and they put up #1 numbers in effectiveness and efficiency across the board. If you are fighting massed power armor, this is your configuration of choice.

Helios vs. TEQ
Both of the Helios suits weapons ignore the TEQ armor save, and force them to use their invulnerable. Again, Helios posts #1 for standard TEQ killing effectiveness and efficiency.

Helios vs. TEQ /w SS
Sometimes quantity is better than quality. The improved invulnerable save drops the Helios's effectiveness and efficiency to #2 vs the Stormshield. Still, a very decent choice.

Helios Summary
Helios pattern suits may be risky, but their potency allows for extreme deadliness even when facing some of the toughest nuts to crack in 40k. Overall, they are the best MEQ and TEQ killers, although volume of fire seems to be a better route vs. Stormshields.

The Bladestorm
Bladestorm Vs. GEQ
The most efficient suit of all the loadouts tested, the Bladestorms volume of fire wipes the floor with the soft GEQ's. Great choice, great value.

Bladestrom vs. MEQ
The Burst Cannon's inability to punch through power armor makes the Bladestorm average vs. MEQ's, but the cheapness of it's loadout keeps it very efficient. Not a bad choice vs. MEQ's.

Bladestorm vs. TEQ
Volume of fire begins to show it's weight of numbers when MP toting suits begin to lose their potency. The bladestorm is slightly more effective than the Fireknife and Burning Eye, but Helio's is still too potent.

Bladestorm vs. TEQ /w SS
A complete surprise to me, the Bladestorm Commander is the best model tested at killing TEQ's /w SS. The highly accurate commander makes best use of the volume of fire tactic, and posts #1 effectiveness and efficiency numbers.

The Burning Eye
Burning Eye vs GEQ
Average effectiveness is outweighed by it being the least efficient choice overall. No bueno.

Burning Eye vs MEQ
The Burning Eye is more deadly and efficient than a BS3 bladestorm and helios, but quickly falls behind when accuracy is incorporated.

Burning Eye vs TEQ
Perhaps Burning Eye's best category is TEQ popping. It's more effective and only 3 points more than a standard elite choice Helios suit. However, low shot count keep the Burning Eye down, and higher point cost models quickly overshadow it.

Burning Eye vs TEQ /w SS
Low shot count continues to plague this choice. Still best utilized as a BS4 elite choice, it's forced to take the same invulnerable save as all the other FB and PR based suits, but with a lower shot count. Average effectiveness, below average efficiency.

Burning Eye Summary
Quality over quantity is the Burning Eye loadout's mantra. It is best utilized in an anti-MEQ and TEQ capacity, as a BS4 elite choice. It is worst utilized against hordes and models with a potent invulnerable save (lack of fire quantity).

Part II: Firestorm Suit Loadout + Analysis


Alrighty. I took the liberty of adding Fire Warrior / Veteran kills + ppk as well, to investigate how effective the Burst Cannon is against toughness 3/4+ save models.

Firestorm vs GEQ
Staggering. The Firestorm is the single most powerful and efficient killer of light infantry I have tested so far. Nothing to discuss here, except that once again it appears that on high shot count models, spending the 15 points to make your model a team leader with a targeting ray is an extremely efficient use of points, which seems contrary to common Tau list making knowledge. Interesting indeed.

Firestorm vs. Veterans/Fire Warriors
Uh oh. Problems in paradise. The Missile pod is still performing well, but the burst cannon's effectiveness is getting eaten up by that 4+ save. Over all, not a bad choice for Vet/FW killing, but it's fairly safe to assume the Fireknife is going to outperform it in this category.

Firestorm vs. MEQ
Bad news. Volume of fire does not seem to be the way to go against MEQ's. The firestorm is a less effective power armor killer than every other suit tested, other than the Deathrain (which is not designed whatsoever for infantry removal outside of flamer range, as we determined before.). Even the Firestorms rock-bottom price tag can't save it in the efficiency column. Bad choice vs. MEQ.

Firestorm vs. TEQ & TEQ /w SS
Niether of the Firestorm's weapons are able to force either the 5++ or 3++ here, resulting in terminator armor eating up those low potency shots for breakfast. It appears the Bladestorm is still the most efficient and effective TEQ popper.

Part III: Cover
Someone brought up cover saves. While I don't feel this necessitates a fully blown out chart, a quick note about which weapons are going to be most effective shooting through cover, will of course be helpful.
Do
Template weapons (AFP, Flamer)
The highest shot count weapon, that also negates the enemies armor save
Prioritize targets that are in the open, that you can eliminate more easilly/make your shots count.

Don't
Forget that since they have cover vs. you... you probably have cover vs. them.. making them less of a threat to you
Shoot high powered, low shot count weapons through cover (Hammerhead Railgun Solid Slug, Fusion Blaster)

Part IV: Everyone Hates the Dreadknight
Title explains it all. Everyone hates the Dreadknight, everyone is afraid of teleporter scout shunt, so what can we, the Tau Battlesuit enthusiast, do about this monstrosity? Here's the numbers. Oh, and I didn't bother including variants that already have a bad track record vs. terminators (Firestorm + Deathrain), we don't need to illustrate how fail they would be at a T6 termi-monster with 4 wounds... haha


Burning Eye vs. Dreadknight
The Burning Eye configuration posts average numbers vs. the Dreadknight. It's fairly killy, but fairly inefficient. Given it's limited capabilities due to shot count, illustrated in the previous sections, coupled with the Grey Knights ability to field MEQ, TEQ, GEQ, Veteran Equivalents and TEQ /w SS all in the same list... probably best to leave on the shelf vs. the Grey Wonders.

Helios vs. Dreadknight
It's good to be the king. The Helios is the most efficient and effective way to punk out a Dreadknight that our suit loadouts have to offer. There could be problems in paradise, however. Given that most Dreadknights are going to have personal teleporters... the Helios is WAY too close for comfort. I'll re-examine the capability for an Alpha Strike later on in this article, to see if Helios is actually a viable Dreadknight solution.

Bladestorm vs. Dreadknight
Yeeeesh. The Dreadknights toughness and terminator armor really take their toll on our new favorite suit's Burst Cannon. Bladestorm is the least effective XV8 configuration that I considered for the Dreadknight exterminator job.

Fireknife vs. Dreadknight
The higher Strength of the Fireknife's missile pods save the Fireknife from the bottom spot, but it's lower shot count and similar inability to penetrate terminator armor with both weapons makes it juuust barely more effective than the Bladestorm... but more expensive, and thusly less efficient. Not a good choice for Dreadknight hunting.

Broadsides vs. Dreadknight
Big monster? Bring a big gun! Right?! Wrong. It turns out shooting @ a Dreadknight with your Broadsides is a terrible use of their capabilities. The mighty Railgun isn't going to cause instant death here, and that invulnerable save isn't going anywhere either. They are the least effective and least efficient way to kill a Dreadknight out of all models tested. Of course, if you are fighting the Draigo + Paladins + 2 Dreadknights list, then your Broadsides really have nothing better to shoot at... so.. why not.

Centurion 'El vs. Dreadknight
My favorite standard HQ choice. His CIB can only wound the Dreadknight on a 6, but thats fine, since the 6 is going to hurt. He posts IDENTICAL effectiveness numbers to the Helios, but is marginally less efficient. Remember though.. he does it @ 18" instead of 12"... although that still leaves you getting charged JSJ'ing away from a Dreadknight that rolls a 6 to run. >.<

So whats the deal... how do we kill this thing!? Lets see what kind of Commanders + Retinues are going to be the most effective at attempting to kill a Dreadknight in just one turn.


Well, the most effective and efficient anti-dreadknight team appears to be the 2x BS3 Helios Elites + 1x BS4 Helios Team Leader + Helios Commander, but they still can't take it out in one volley of fire (on average). So what to do? Well, @ 24" range this team is capable of scoring 1.66 unsaved wounds with single shots from their plasma rifles. No one is perfect, so let's say you take the shots from 22". Hop straight back 6" and now you're 28" out. The dreadknight moves 12" but even with a perfect run roll, he's going to be short for the charge. Perfect! Now, @ point blank range, the Helios squad pours on 3.05 wounds in the second round of fire (as illustrated above). Dreadknight = Deadknight in two rounds of shooting, with a buffer zone of .71 wounds for bad rolls. Not terrible.

That's what they get for using the Sisters as anti-daemon rhino liner for their armor.
Part V: 18" and Beyond!

Alright.. so by popular request, i've pitted the Bladestorm against the Fireknife @ range 13-18 + range 19-24. It's pretty obvious that the Fireknife is going to be superior @ 19-24" range, but I think that the 18" range is safe enough, where the blade storm can still be an effective choice. The blade storm abuses the Fireknife in all areas, both more effective and more efficient. Only once that Burst Cannon is out of range, does the Fireknife pull ahead. If you would like to compare these suits numbers to the Death Rain, 25"+ then just subtract the 19" Bladestorm #'s from the Fireknifes 24" numbers. Not suprisingly, the Death Rain is only marginally better.

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Thanks for sharing, much appreciated...

Uploaded the chart to the dakka gallery and reposted. Should be easier to see now.

Thanks for doing the hard work. So it looks like Bladestorms remain a good overall choice. The problem with them is the 18" range for the BCs...

I've toyed with a TL BC/ Flamer combo (or vice versa)before, talk about cheap and good GEQ killer but nearly impotent vs. MEQ and TEQ.

agnosto wrote:Thanks for doing the hard work. So it looks like Bladestorms remain a good overall choice. The problem with them is the 18" range for the BCs...

I've toyed with a TL BC/ Flamer combo (or vice versa)before, talk about cheap and good GEQ killer but nearly impotent vs. MEQ and TEQ.

Yeaaah.. It's really interesting that Bladestorm is effective against both the softest AND hardest targets... but suffers against standard terminators and marines (relative to other suits). Grey Knights + Henchmen, anyone?

Anyone have good math for FNP? Am I to simply remove half the unsaved wounds? Or is it more complicated than that.


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Also, fully willing to take requests... I.E. "How effective is Bladestorm at killing Flash Gits?"

Not sure how I want to do template weapons yet. Max models that fit? 5? Still figuring out how I want to do that. Perhaps a comparison of how many models you have to fit under a template with a certain weapon, to make it more effective than other similar weapons...

IE ... Flamer vs. Burst Cannon

Also, really going to need help with the CIB "ap1 on 6's" math.. if anyone has an easy way to do that.

Good write up. Quick criticism, though. I know a grand total of one of those configurations (Fireknife), most Tau players don't know many.
So at the intro, can you do something like Fireknife - Missle Pod/Plasma Rifle?

For FNP, it depends on the weapon being used. If it's not a ID/AP 2 or better, half the wounds would go through, so divide it by two for those?

Gavo wrote:Good write up. Quick criticism, though. I know a grand total of one of those configurations (Fireknife), most Tau players don't know many.
So at the intro, can you do something like Fireknife - Missle Pod/Plasma Rifle?

For FNP, it depends on the weapon being used. If it's not a ID/AP 2 or better, half the wounds would go through, so divide it by two for those?

The second collum, "loadout" has the specific wargear taken for the model listed. The abbreviations used are listed above the chart.

Awesome information! Can't wait to try the Helios load-out now

...too bad all but one of my suits right now are Fireknives and are glued together

mega_bassist wrote:Awesome information! Can't wait to try the Helios load-out now

...too bad all but one of my suits right now are Fireknives and are glued together

Well Math-Hammer can't take into account survivability. That 12" range is dangerous, but it can be extremely effective.

I can help with the FNP/CIB if you so desire.

When I mathhamer crisis suits in my own charts, I do it by weapon. I don't do it in whole 2 weapon suits because then you have a lot more to list. If you can see the individual characteristics of weapons, then you can mix and match for optimized suits.

I take the base cost of crisis suits and then add the price for the multi tracker, and then divide it by two because the price will be split among 2 weapons:

( ( 25 + 5 ) / 2 + Points for Weapon ) / (Killy!!)

So for a Plasma Rifle:

15+20 = 35 / Dead TEQ = 63 PPK

Missile Pod:

15+12 = 27 / Dead TEQ = 194 PPK

So that way you can mix and match weapons to optimize your configurations.

Using that method, I'll do the math for the CIB (including rending):

GEQ - 56 PPK
MEQ - 63 PPK
TEQ - 101 PPK
TEQ w/ SS - 168 PPK

Here is the maths for it against GEQ so that you may know how to do it:

5 Shots
2.5 Hits
1/3 wound = .833333 wounds

Now, since you wound on 5s and 6s, half of your wounds will be 6s, and so half will ignore armor. So what you do is split your wounds in half:

.416666 rend
.416666 don't

.416666 wounds on guard
.416666/2 (for armor)

do the maths and add them:

.625 GEQ dead

Calculate the PPK (using half the suits cost):

15 + 20 / .625 = 56 PPK

Thanks for the CIB/FNP info! I think I'll continue using suit loadouts, vice individual weapons, so that I can illustrate how well suits scale with additional BS, and how TL W + TA compares to W + W + MT.

Ok, can I put in a request for Firestorms to be evaluated, they are one of my favorite configurations.

Definitely. I'll hammer it out (see what I did there) tonight after work.

Yeah, I will be interested to see Firestorm numbers. It has some potential advantages - firstly, maximum effectiveness is reached at 18" rather than 12". Second, it is cheap, with only 50 points base. And third, it's effectiveness vs MEQ/TEQ is not dependent on cover. Of course, chances of getting through 2+ save aren't great...

Cottonjaw wrote:

mega_bassist wrote:Awesome information! Can't wait to try the Helios load-out now

...too bad all but one of my suits right now are Fireknives and are glued together

Well Math-Hammer can't take into account survivability. That 12" range is dangerous, but it can be extremely effective.

True story, but I never realized it would make numbers like that. Almost everyone in the area around me plays MEQ's or CSM (one reason I have all Fireknives right now) and it would be nice to change it up, pose a threat, and give myself a challenge

It looks like you're always assuming the Plasma Rifles will be at 12" or less. You should really do a range differentiated column for those.

I've seen something similar to this before,either on Tau Online or ATT, while I can't find the article anymore, I do have a copy of the chart if it might save some time

If you read the post... I said that all shots were taken at 12" to show maximum effectiveness of all suits.

How does a MP/BC suit do?

AdeptSister wrote:How does a MP/BC suit do?

Backfire wrote:Yeah, I will be interested to see Firestorm numbers. It has some potential advantages - firstly, maximum effectiveness is reached at 18" rather than 12". Second, it is cheap, with only 50 points base. And third, it's effectiveness vs MEQ/TEQ is not dependent on cover. Of course, chances of getting through 2+ save aren't great...

The Bringer wrote:Ok, can I put in a request for Firestorms to be evaluated, they are one of my favorite configurations.

AdeptSister wrote:How does a MP/BC suit do?

By popular demand, I have added "Part II". Also includes 4+/3T model comparison so we can see how much the armor save is going to affect the burst cannon. Hope it's everything you wanted.

One thing I want to add is this... cover!

Say your burning eye, the best at MEQ PPK at 44, shoots at marines in cover. That jacks up their PPK to 88. Meanwhile, the missilepod version is at 108. So, not such a big difference anymore--but the missiles have that 108 effectiveness at 36 inches compared to the burning eye's 12 inches.

Burning Eye and Helios, being ap2 or greater, will see the most use versus FNP models out of cover, and models with a 2+ armor save and no invuln like sang guard (who will also most likely have FNP too), and since units like sang guard are assault oriented, you better hope you kill them with your shooting or your dead.

Also, something to consider is stealth suits--the younger brother of the crisis suit I suppose. If you run the numbers on stealth suits with drone controllers (gun drones) you should find that they are some of the most efficient shooters.

Points: 50 (Stealth Suit and 2 Gun Drones)
Dead GEQ = 1.25 + .93 = 23 PPK
Dead MEQ = .333 +.25 = 86 PPK
Dead TEQ = ½meq = 171 PPK
Dead TEQSS = TEQ = 171 PPK

So on first glance they dont seem the best... BUT they are 100% effective at 18 inches instead of 12, get stealth fields, the drone attacks cause pinning, and are just as good at killing MEQ in cover as they are in the open. When compared to the 'better' suit options shooting at units in cover, these guys kick major butt since half their wounds wont go away. You also get 30 shots for 300 points in a single unit, with 18 wounds. Granted they stink at dealing with 2+ FNP units, but most things do.

This unit also gets perhaps the largest boost from markerlights, as its pretty much the most shots in a single unit your gonna get, doesnt already pay for extra BS, and can make use of the pinning bonus as well.

DevianID wrote:One thing I want to add is this... cover!

Say your burning eye, the best at MEQ PPK at 44, shoots at marines in cover. That jacks up their PPK to 88. Meanwhile, the missilepod version is at 108. So, not such a big difference anymore--but the missiles have that 108 effectiveness at 36 inches compared to the burning eye's 12 inches.

Burning Eye and Helios, being ap2 or greater, will see the most use versus FNP models out of cover, and models with a 2+ armor save and no invuln like sang guard (who will also most likely have FNP too), and since units like sang guard are assault oriented, you better hope you kill them with your shooting or your dead.

Also, something to consider is stealth suits--the younger brother of the crisis suit I suppose. If you run the numbers on stealth suits with drone controllers (gun drones) you should find that they are some of the most efficient shooters.

Points: 50 (Stealth Suit and 2 Gun Drones)
Dead GEQ = 1.25 + .93 = 23 PPK
Dead MEQ = .333 +.25 = 86 PPK
Dead TEQ = ½meq = 171 PPK
Dead TEQSS = TEQ = 171 PPK

So on first glance they dont seem the best... BUT they are 100% effective at 18 inches instead of 12, get stealth fields, the drone attacks cause pinning, and are just as good at killing MEQ in cover as they are in the open. When compared to the 'better' suit options shooting at units in cover, these guys kick major butt since half their wounds wont go away. You also get 30 shots for 300 points in a single unit, with 18 wounds. Granted they stink at dealing with 2+ FNP units, but most things do.

This unit also gets perhaps the largest boost from markerlights, as its pretty much the most shots in a single unit your gonna get, doesnt already pay for extra BS, and can make use of the pinning bonus as well.

This is an evolving thread (article?) so I'll tack that onto the list of things I'd like to test.

DevianID wrote:One thing I want to add is this... cover!

Added Part III: Cover ... just some quick notes.

CJ, I'm glad you have a good head for that sort of math. I don't.

And no real surprises. I've been advocating the FireStorm for a while, as I'd seen a rise in orks (Kan Walls & BW lists) and IG in my meta ... now though a *lot* more MEqs (SW, BA & GK) so *if* I were to fight for the greater good I'd prolly have a list heavy on Bladestorms or Helios, given the couple BlackTemplar guys that keep showing up to RTTs with BT Deathstars, TH/SS termies.

Wow, these lists are actually making me change my opinions on certain things... normally I would have cursed any unit of bladestorm crisis suits, but they are a good all-comers unit. They are close to being the best against GEQs, MEQs, and TEQs...

I may have to try them out in the future.

The Bringer wrote:Wow, these lists are actually making me change my opinions on certain things... normally I would have cursed any unit of bladestorm crisis suits, but they are a good all-comers unit. They are close to being the best against GEQs, MEQs, and TEQs...

I may have to try them out in the future.

Same here. They totally took me by suprise. At first I kept re-running the numbers like "Hold on... no.."


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Added Part IV: Everyone Hates the Dreadknight.

Because let's face it....

Hey Cottonjaw! Just checking in and taking a look on this thread like you said I should. Great info! This is really going to give my new Tau army a jumpstart!

Updated my 2500 list with some of the findings from here. Both IA friendly and no-IA versions of the list. Just in case some of the people following this thread want to see how i've applied my findings.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/361077.page

Very good work. I have pretty much been running all fireknives lately, so it's good to see this information so well presented.

I am happy to have magnetized all my suits now.

There are 2 more things I find shocking about this:

-Bladestorms are better than fireknives at everything.
-Team leaders with targeting arrays is a good option.