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AustonT wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

AustonT wrote:But how can Christians (it's a pacifist religion) support war?
/evil grin

God and the prophets/apostles advocate/perpetrate numerous acts of violence within the books. The books also dehumanize large segments of the population and advocate extereme punishments for (by modern standards) utterly harmless acts (a child insulting his father, wearing mixed fabrics, etc).

Theres a lot of confliction between what Jesus did and what the 'religion' advocates at times.

And about 80% of that conflict is resolved by
A-The new covenant replacing the old one
B-Apostolic succession allows for god to modify the covenant through the popes

The second one is catholics only, but the first one covers most of it anyway.

People don't care that much about the new covenant. Being gay is still evil and the stories of the old testament are still told routinely. People take what is convenient and ignore what isn't. Some books certainly supercede others, but the texts are still taken in their totality to create the general geist of 'Christianity'.

Paul was a huge homophobe, gays being evil is in the NT. The text is not taken in it's totality as I'm sure most if not all Christians do not eat Kosher.

Leviticus is still utilized often to advocate for a straight and sinless lifestyle though. The spirit of Christianity is formed by both new and old testament. The laws set down by the old aren't followed to the letter, but many of them aren't ignored. As I had stated, the faithful kept what was convenient and now ignore what isn't. Much of the old testament has been built into the system after many centuries of writ and tradition, what was espoused by the 'church' immediately after the new covenant (not immediate, they took a long time to all come out) is markedly different then what is espoused now. Modern Christianity seems to pepper in old testament foundationalism and modern post enlightenment liberalism with the new testaments direct teachings. It's a big package.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No more god talk. I'll be good.

Frazzled wrote:


Speaking of demons:


To the topic. I am quite familiar with Obama and his policies. I was originally fearful his inexperience - colored by a political tilt that was unattractive - would prove ineffectual. Plus he was a Chicago politican. My worst fears have been proven correct, in spades.

Hell hath been unleashed..but it does have a collar on
This is completely true...and a reason i prefer politicians who have been in offices for a while

See, I actually like Obama's core policies, but they're being implemented horribly.

To me, Obama is LBJ without the fight.

haha, I have my own demon!


Again, I am hearing a recurring theme here, Obama blames others for the cause of the problems.
Are you suggesting that his blaming is unproductive, or that his blaming is a deflection and the problems are his fault?

Huffy wrote:

Frazzled wrote:


Speaking of demons:


To the topic. I am quite familiar with Obama and his policies. I was originally fearful his inexperience - colored by a political tilt that was unattractive - would prove ineffectual. Plus he was a Chicago politican. My worst fears have been proven correct, in spades.

Hell hath been unleashed..but it does have a collar on

yea but the collar says "born to boogie"

I can see its glowing eyes staring into my soul through the computer screen...

I appreciate that there's a strong degree of correlation/causality a'twixt a persons dogs ( if they have any) and any political views ( if they have any) but, frankly, the ins and outs of dogs (or indeed any other major animal) have been debated, and by much, much better minds than us, for literally centuries. It's unlikely in the extreme that any of us have any bold new startling and hitherto unconsidered approaches to this thorny subject, so let's just leave the dog dissection alone for now. Fret not I'm sure a related topic will crop up soon enough where we can once again thrill to the same people taking up the sides they always do, using the same arguments they always do, then we have a huge argument and the MOD team get to step in, close the thread and/or suspend people.

.. so, let's just pretend we've already done that, and we've already all kissed and made up, and get on with the original discussion.




.......... I'm sure a calm, informative and nuanced discussion will take place. Hmm ? It's about politics ?! Oh fu..

Melissia wrote:I can see its glowing eyes staring into my soul through the computer screen...

Those are the burning eyes of Dachshundskrieg staring at you Melissia. Prey its awesome indescribable power (and by that I mean 8lbs) is never loosed upon the Earth. *


*The awesome power of Tbone most recently discovered Dad's giant old dog's butt is an effective couch substitute and has been using it as such, replete with pulling a blanket over himself and snuggling in for for afternoon naps.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rented Tritium wrote:I appreciate that there's a strong degree of correlation/causality a'twixt a persons dogs ( if they have any) and any political views ( if they have any) but, frankly, the ins and outs of dogs (or indeed any other major animal) have been debated, and by much, much better minds than us, for literally centuries. It's unlikely in the extreme that any of us have any bold new startling and hitherto unconsidered approaches to this thorny subject, so let's just leave the dog dissection alone for now. Fret not I'm sure a related topic will crop up soon enough where we can once again thrill to the same people taking up the sides they always do, using the same arguments they always do, then we have a huge argument and the MOD team get to step in, close the thread and/or suspend people.

.. so, let's just pretend we've already done that, and we've already all kissed and made up, and get on with the original discussion.




.......... I'm sure a calm, informative and nuanced discussion will take place. Hmm ? It's about politics ?! Oh fu..

All pets are welcome and loved here
But back OT:
What do you think of President Obama's blaming others?
Are the problems really someone else's fault, but his blaming is unproductive?
Or
Are the problems his to inherit and solve given his office as President?

I can certainly relate to how much it sucks to fix problems caused by other people not doing their jobs. I work in IT, so that is every day life for me.

I don't think either one is quite right. See, on the one hand, he's being blocked pretty badly by the republicans, but on the other hand, it's his responsibility to make it happen either way. Other presidents have powered through that kind of opposition before.

So the guys blocking everything may suck and all, but oh well, life's tough. You still have to make things happen.

I do want to note that most of his successes have been things that are the domain of the executive. He's gotten an awful lot of high end al qaeda leaders and our withdraw from iraq appears as though it will not be very noteworthy (although bush gets a lot of credit for that as well, since he actually got the timeline)

ok, so I need help to understand the reasoning behind the paraphrased statement "Obama blames everyone else" which has been said a lot during this discussion.
And of course, please clarify "why" you feel the way you do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a short list off the top of my head of major National problems.
-Recession
-Housing/Credit/Banking crises
-Tax/class/income disparity
-Unemployment/outsourcing
-Health care

When I think about these issues, I think about unrestrained corporate greed causing the problems in the first place.

ShumaGorath wrote:

AustonT wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

AustonT wrote:But how can Christians (it's a pacifist religion) support war?
/evil grin

God and the prophets/apostles advocate/perpetrate numerous acts of violence within the books. The books also dehumanize large segments of the population and advocate extereme punishments for (by modern standards) utterly harmless acts (a child insulting his father, wearing mixed fabrics, etc).

Theres a lot of confliction between what Jesus did and what the 'religion' advocates at times.

And about 80% of that conflict is resolved by
A-The new covenant replacing the old one
B-Apostolic succession allows for god to modify the covenant through the popes

The second one is catholics only, but the first one covers most of it anyway.

.

People don't care that much about the new covenant. Being gay is still evil and the stories of the old testament are still told routinely. People take what is convenient and ignore what isn't. Some books certainly supercede others, but the texts are still taken in their totality to create the general geist of 'Christianity'.

Paul was a huge homophobe, gays being evil is in the NT. The text is not taken in it's totality as I'm sure most if not all Christians do not eat Kosher.

Leviticus is still utilized often to advocate for a straight and sinless lifestyle though. The spirit of Christianity is formed by both new and old testament. The laws set down by the old aren't followed to the letter, but many of them aren't ignored. As I had stated, the faithful kept what was convenient and now ignore what isn't. Much of the old testament has been built into the system after many centuries of writ and tradition, what was espoused by the 'church' immediately after the new covenant (not immediate, they took a long time to all come out) is markedly different then what is espoused now. Modern Christianity seems to pepper in old testament foundationalism and modern post enlightenment liberalism with the new testaments direct teachings. It's a big package.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No more god talk. I'll be good.

You're wrong it's in black and white. Consider this a warning. Shuma will you never learn to read first post second?

AustonT wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

AustonT wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

AustonT wrote:But how can Christians (it's a pacifist religion) support war?
/evil grin

God and the prophets/apostles advocate/perpetrate numerous acts of violence within the books. The books also dehumanize large segments of the population and advocate extereme punishments for (by modern standards) utterly harmless acts (a child insulting his father, wearing mixed fabrics, etc).

Theres a lot of confliction between what Jesus did and what the 'religion' advocates at times.

And about 80% of that conflict is resolved by
A-The new covenant replacing the old one
B-Apostolic succession allows for god to modify the covenant through the popes

The second one is catholics only, but the first one covers most of it anyway.

.

People don't care that much about the new covenant. Being gay is still evil and the stories of the old testament are still told routinely. People take what is convenient and ignore what isn't. Some books certainly supercede others, but the texts are still taken in their totality to create the general geist of 'Christianity'.

Paul was a huge homophobe, gays being evil is in the NT. The text is not taken in it's totality as I'm sure most if not all Christians do not eat Kosher.

Leviticus is still utilized often to advocate for a straight and sinless lifestyle though. The spirit of Christianity is formed by both new and old testament. The laws set down by the old aren't followed to the letter, but many of them aren't ignored. As I had stated, the faithful kept what was convenient and now ignore what isn't. Much of the old testament has been built into the system after many centuries of writ and tradition, what was espoused by the 'church' immediately after the new covenant (not immediate, they took a long time to all come out) is markedly different then what is espoused now. Modern Christianity seems to pepper in old testament foundationalism and modern post enlightenment liberalism with the new testaments direct teachings. It's a big package.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No more god talk. I'll be good.

You're wrong it's in black and white. Consider this a warning. Shuma will you never learn to read first post second?

Will you ever learn to form and then state coherent points rather then simply claiming people are wrong and trolling them? What am I wrong about? Your view of the scriptures? The worlds? Catholicisms?

On all but the first the old testament plays a huge part in the formation of day to day worship ritual and the formation of christian organizations. The new testament freed people from the laws of the old, but a significant number of the rituals and day to day practices maintained from that period. There is no cut off date to the old testament. It didn't just vanish. When I stop hearing about gak from Leviticus and the stuff moses wrote down concerning moral behavior coming from non catholic denominations is the moment you get to start flaming me about the uniform and black and white nature of christianity.

I can tell you are both very passionate and emotional about your beliefs, but please feel free to start a seperate religious interpretation thread if you want to take this furthur ok?

ShumaGorath wrote:Will you ever learn to form and then state coherent points rather then simply claiming people are wrong and trolling them?

Tsk TSM Shuma. Dipping your toes into treacherous waters again.
Most fundamentalists quote Leviticus when choosing to assail homosexuality. But Paul says in Galatians 5:2-4 "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." or if you prefer Hebrews 8:13 says "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."
Have a nice day.

AustonT wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Will you ever learn to form and then state coherent points rather then simply claiming people are wrong and trolling them?

Tsk TSM Shuma. Dipping your toes into treacherous waters again.
Most fundamentalists quote Leviticus when choosing to assail homosexuality. But Paul says in Galatians 5:2-4 "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." or if you prefer Hebrews 8:13 says "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."
Have a nice day.

That's magical and pretty and all but my entire point was that people still refer to the old testament constantly, both it's prophecies and teachings, and that while the new testament supposedly frees Christians from need of the old they use it anyway. Which they do. Constantly. If you're arguing that they shouldn't? Sure. I agree. If you're arguing that the old testament doesn't still play a huge role in modern Christianity and it's formation as a teaching with myriad organizational structures then you're flat out wrong.


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dsteingass wrote:I can tell you are both very passionate and emotional about your beliefs, but please feel free to start a seperate religious interpretation thread if you want to take this furthur ok?

I will post no more here. He's arguing past me anyway, so it's not like my participation matters in his rants.

We should combine this and the BBQ thread to create Dave's BBQ Column.

Ahtman wrote:We should combine this and the BBQ thread to create Dave's BBQ Column.

I second that emotion.

Do I need to go subb the BBQ thread now? lol

reds8n wrote: Fret not I'm sure a related topic will crop up soon enough where we can once again thrill to the same people taking up the sides they always do, using the same arguments they always do, then we have a huge argument and the MOD team get to step in, close the thread and/or suspend people.

Sigh. Reading something like this really makes me realize how much I'm wasting my life drip by drip with every time I click "Off-Topic Forum". You're right - it's the Harlem Globetrotters in political threads. Same game every night, same moves, same dunks, same players, except every night the game just peters out with no winners.

//at least the tickets are cheap

Ouze wrote:

reds8n wrote: Fret not I'm sure a related topic will crop up soon enough where we can once again thrill to the same people taking up the sides they always do, using the same arguments they always do, then we have a huge argument and the MOD team get to step in, close the thread and/or suspend people.

Sigh. Reading something like this really makes me realize how much I'm wasting my life drip by drip with every time I click "Off-Topic Forum". You're right - it's the Harlem Globetrotters in political threads. Same game every night, same moves, same dunks, same players, except every night the game just peters out with no winners.

//at least the tickets are cheap

It fits the 40k theme.

Honestly, I am really trying to learn how other people think here. I have a lot of thoughts and questions, and I am glad that I am not alone even on a wargaming forum with my "people". Everyone else seems to feel just as lost as I do, albeit about different issues, which strangely, makes me feel better.

I don't feel lost.

I don't know that I feel lost, per se, but I certainly feel disillusioned, jaded, and pessimistic.

More aggravated than lost.

Then again, that might be my default state.

lol @ frazzled. Everyone is lost except your confident self of course!

Ouze wrote:I don't know that I feel lost, per se, but I certainly feel disillusioned, jaded, and pessimistic.

Welcome Ouze, you've just taken your first step into a larger universe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
-Recession
***Its Bush's fault! Its the earthquake's fault! Its Bush's fault! Its Europe's fault! Its the Republican's fault!

-Housing/Credit/Banking crises
***Its Bush's fault! Its the earthquake's fault! Its Bush's fault! Its Europe's fault! Its the Republican's fault!


-Unemployment/outsourcing
***Its Bush's fault! Its the earthquake's fault! Its Bush's fault! Its Europe's fault! Its the Republican's fault!

-Health care
***Its Bush's fault! Its the earthquake's fault! Its Bush's fault! Its Europe's fault! Its the Republican's fault!

Frazzled wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
-Recession
***Its Bush's fault! Its the earthquake's fault! Its Bush's fault! Its Europe's fault! Its the Republican's fault!

-Housing/Credit/Banking crises
***Its Bush's fault! Its the earthquake's fault! Its Bush's fault! Its Europe's fault! Its the Republican's fault!


-Unemployment/outsourcing
***Its Bush's fault! Its the earthquake's fault! Its Bush's fault! Its Europe's fault! Its the Republican's fault!

-Health care
***Its Bush's fault! Its the earthquake's fault! Its Bush's fault! Its Europe's fault! Its the Republican's fault!

EXACTLY!!, mostly the Europeans fault if you ask me with their funny ways of speaking american and what not

Rented Tritium wrote:I disagree with a large chunk of catholic policy, but it is nothing if not internally consistent.

But again, they're a tiny part of Christianity.

They represent just a tick over half of all Christians, 1.1 billion Catholics out of a total Christian population of 2.1 billion.