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Oh really? What about the last ed codex. You know the one with the trait system. That codex was the best Marine codex that I have ever played. You had plenty of options and rules to pick and choose what you wanted to do. Now you have one character to make a list for you. Which by the way is kinda boring and foolish if you ask me. What if I don't want to play using He'stan? How do I get the feel of a Salamander army then?

What about it? Traits? Like the triat that lets you have sterngaurd as scoring units? The trait that makes your THs master crafted and flamers twinlinked?

Oh wait. Those are characters. They are so completely similar I can't seem to tell the difference.

Those characters don't make the list. You do.

Don't want to use He'Stan but still want to play Salamanders? Paint them as Salamanders. They are a codex chapter and don't deserve anything special. They don't even deserve He'Stan.

How can you codense armies when there are so many different armies out there in this vast universe? Not all marines are the same but you are implying that they are. Or at the very least you want them to be. That is pure insane. Do you have any care for the background of this unverse or the armies that you play? If not then I am sorry for you. That is what brought me to the hobby. The story of why Orks are what they are, why Marines are what they are. Not just to simple play a game. But if that is what you want then you should be happy. That is not what I want. I want something more from the hobby I love. When you have a puplication like you do with White Dwarf then you might as well us it for something more then the same thing every month. We get pages of LoTR, pages of 40K, and pages of Fantasy that really doesn't show us anything but promote there cool new models. It should be more of a hobby book helping with painting and helping with army building or what not. What happened to the Chapter approved section? That is where these new additions to lists could be. Not that big of a deal if you ask me. Just because there is an addition to a list or and amendium to a list there doesn't need to be cool new models.

The races of the 40k universe are limited. The Emperor put almost every race to extinction.

Only the Orks, Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids, Minions of Chaos and Humanity have the galaxy spaning might to wage war on this scale.

All marines are the same. Some have a few tweeks in their gene-seed but in the end they have a 4 across the boad stat line and a 3 plus save.

I love the fluff and background of the armies I play. I don't even own a competative army anymore. So no feeling bad for me please.

WD is an overpriced catalog. Anyone with a subscription is wasting their money.

What happened to Chapter Approved? GW stockholders that's what.

40k doesn't need additions in a magazine. It needs a more encompassing rules set that sets the ground rules for "competative play" and "friendly gaming".

More rules means more crap for everyone to learn. More books, papers, printouts, websites and stuff that we don't need. A rulebook and codex is fine.

No new models? This is a model company. If they make new rules, they sure as hell are gonna make new models. That's where the money is.

I like that the fact you have mentioned the newest of codexes. Of course they are the greatest they are the newest. I bet the next codex that comes out is going to be the greatest as well. Thgese codexes are great if all you want to do is win games. They however are not great with fluff and interesting ways to play. All they do is make you win with the most powerful new rules and untis. Hey it works though GW is selling alot of new models this way. That is the reason why these codexes are the way they are. Not to site interest into the hobby for there customers, but to make the customers buy the newest powerful models. Why the're rules are the way they are. But you seem to think they are great so good job on GW's part.

Actually, these codexs are great if you own these armies and have been waiting for a new codex.

They're also awesome as they are non-marine books. And they have a ton of character and diversity.

The Necron fluff is up for debate. The Dark Eldar fluff is great. Did you read them?

The codex doesn't "make" you win. Being a tactically sound general of your forces makes you win. And high dice rolls. (Low in the case of youropponent).

GW is selling a lot of new models because it's what GW customers want.


I feel that you don't really know what you want.

The current Marine dex has more than enough variation. You can only go so far before you're just demanding that each color of marine should have its own rules.

You've made complaints about Grey Knights being "broken". Isn't that the fluff? Aren't they the unstoppable might of the Inquisition? Aren't they the greatest of the great?

You feel that Salamanders should have a whole ruleset instead of a single model that gives you the very ruleset you want.

You also seem to be one of those people who hates on new codexs before reading them or playing against an army from them.

You complain about Warmahordes and how you lost on the first turn before being able to play. That was under an older ruleset. It seems this isn't the first time you thought about leaving 40k.

Why did you leave in the first place? And if it's only getting worse... what brought you back?

balsak_da_mighty wrote:

Kitbash custom character counts-as Vulkan. Really, what's hard about it?

Its not a matter of the model. Its a matter of not using HIM. The fact that you need He'stan to make a Salamander army is my point. Geessh!

When it comes to playing 40k, you do have choices: don't like their rules/characters/FOCs? Write your own, or find a well-written fandex, and find friends who will let you play them. Too much work? Then quit whining. How you play the game is, ultimately, completely up to you.

I've realized that I don't like the current 40k rules and fluff so me and my brothers has gone back to 2nd ed. It's much more enjoyable.

Me too. I'd like the game more if it was more affordable.

I am commenting without reading the others, so it's possible that someone has said this. That being said, I attribute the shift to a more tournament based gaming than that of fluff oriented battles. Luckily my group of friends and I rely heavily on story driven battles. Even if we play SW and Eldar vs IG, we generally try to coincide with a story arc in one way or another, and avoid, dare I say, cheesy armies and gravitate more towards armies as you might see them.

What about it? Traits? Like the triat that lets you have sterngaurd as scoring units? The trait that makes your THs master crafted and flamers twinlinked?

Oh wait. Those are characters. They are so completely similar I can't seem to tell the difference.

Because you didn't need a Special Character in order to use a trait. You could make your Captain how you wanted and whatever else.

The races of the 40k universe are limited. The Emperor put almost every race to extinction.

Only the Orks, Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids, Minions of Chaos and Humanity have the galaxy spaning might to wage war on this scale.

Havn't read the fluff have you? There's actually plenty of still other warring aliens, they just havn't been given a codex and you need to read fluff for them to actually exist.

I was a huge fan of the traits system. I could run the Salamanders traits, and still run my two preferred HQ's. While it still lost out on some of what I liked about the Armageddon list, I wasn't shoehorned into wasting a HQ slot on a character I didn't want to run.

This whole thing could have been avoided if they just made the chapter tactics that various special characters have an upgrade to Captains and Chapter Masters. It's very obvious the reason behind tying them to characters was to sell the models.

@ balsak_da_mighty

I agree with you on your topic. There are others like myself that have been the hobby, owned businesses and/or worked in this hobby who have seen the changes in 40k/WHFB and have voted with their pocket book and or left the hobby all together. I miss the days on when I can go to a tournament and not knowing what exactly what I am going up against.

Army lists are now so cut and paste and insert special character to unlock the special abilities of that army in question, and to me that it has gotten rather boring.

Necron's wall of doom, Draigo wings, Dark eldar's flying circus, and so on. Good players will know all of the standard efficient patterns of the various codexes and counters with their own, but to me this is boring, dull, and unimaginative.

Of late I have seen the increase of white knights charging in the defense of the corporation, or the Dark Knights coming out of the wood work to counter them You been here long enough to sift through the postings to find out who are some of these neck beards are and simply ignore the worst of them that can not converse in a reasonable manner.

My club has just converted across to Infinity because the "love" for 40k had just waned to the point of "meh".

They still play fantasy, but for SF gaming they want something that put the zing back in (and 40k just wasn't cutting the mustard anymore).

@Jakka: I am wondering who is whinning? It is not me. It's really hard to ask peoploe that play the gaem to play it totally different then how they are writin. If I could then maybe I wouldn't be havnig the issue I am. The people I do play with are very laid back people that really play because they love the hobby. They all pretty much have the same issues with it as I do. And they all range from ages 40 down to 15. I am happy that I have people that feel the way I do. I just wish GW and others felt the same way.

@Deffdred: I agree with the new characters you do have a taste of the trait system. Being able to create your own is far more interesting.

All marines are the same. Some have a few tweeks in their gene-seed but in the end they have a 4 across the boad stat line and a 3 plus save.

I really find this funny. All marines are in fact not the same. They all have different gene seeds. You know that all the Primarcs are in fact different right? Yes they do have alot of the same simliarities. They are all super humans in power armor. They actually shouldn't be the same in stats as I come back to salamanders whom live on a High Gravity worls so should have there Int reduced like they once were. So in fact they are different.

You also seem to be one of those people who hates on new codexs before reading them or playing against an army from them.

As a matter of fact I get every codex. I like to read what they have to offer and its good to know what they do before you get on a table to play against them. I hate the new codexes as they seem to one up the last one. Where is the balance?

You complain about Warmahordes and how you lost on the first turn before being able to play. That was under an older ruleset. It seems this isn't the first time you thought about leaving 40k.
Why did you leave in the first place? And if it's only getting worse... what brought you back?

Who ever said I left playing 40k? I sure as heck didn't. Can't someone play both games or is there a rule that I don't know about. I picked it up because it was different and thought it would be nice to play once and awhile. And actually it wasn't under an older ruleset it was under the play test rules for MK II. I quit Warmahordes as it was not the game for me. It is what 40k is becoming powergaming. I have never been one to like powergaming.

I LOATHE powergaming, personally. I understand people want to win tournaments, but IMO there is so much more to the game than winning, and don't get me wrong, I LOVE winning. A lot of SW players disregard bloodclaws, as they do have certain drawbacks when compared to the GH, however it wouldn't be accurate to leave them out. I feel about powergaming the same way I do about hotdog eating contests. You know, they eat the buns, then the franks, and dip them in water and eat to win. Yeah, you win, but at what cost?

I'm kinda in the same boat as the OP. spent a year rebuilding my marine army and now I'm finding that it just plain sucks, and I've only ever won 1 game. I've lost many, many games.

Everyone at my FLGS is a power gamer with competitive lists. There really aren't any "friendly" games to be had. Every game played there is considered to be practice for tourneys. Don't get me wrong theyre nice guys and I've become friends with many of them.

They always try to give me advice on how to win but it doesn't seem to help. At this point I'm tired of getting my teeth kicked in on every game with my fail marines. And I'm unwilling to spend more money on units that may or may not be "better" than what I've got right now.

Quite frankly I don't even want to look at space marines right now, let alone paint more of them. And I don't want to build a new army.

The game should be fun, but when all you do is lose, it ain't so fun. Think I'm just gonna focus on painting and maybe give 6th Ed a try, but I'm not hoping for any miracles.

I suggest flames fo war if you want a game that has more to do with the fans. In fluffwise I have just gotten used to bad fluff writing. My Crons cant complain however because we didnt realy have any fluff. The reason I think you are saying this is because you are looking in the codexs more for fluff rather than the books.
Try reading a 40K book lile from the Horus series and compare it to the chaos and space marine codex fluff and you will see what I mean.

I agree with the OP on this completely!

My biggest issue with 40K, besides some of the aforementioned issues (which I also agree with), is the lack of fluff and usefulness of many of the units in the Codex's. The old 3rd and even 4th edition Codex's had the different chapter traits and playstyles because they made use of the strengths and weaknesses of many of the units who by themselves would have been useless.

Lets take a look at 2 of the newer codex's. Dark Eldar and Necrons have some of the most awesome models GW has ever produced. The specific models I'm mentioning are Incubi, and Lich Guard. These models made me want to play those armies. I come from a very competitive FLGS where everyone plays the competitive cookie cutter army. My FLGS holds many GT's as well. Taking this into account I wanted to build a Dark Eldar and Necron army that made use of these units and was still competitive. Well thanks to GW and their poor rules I could not make a single army that would make use of these units and when I talked to other people at my FLGS they laughed at me for even toying with the idea of using them. They all suggested I do the standard DE Venom spam, or Necron Warrior spam with C'tan and Tremor Staves and what not. I didn't want to do these armies though, they are unfluffy, and in my opinion very boring and use some of the dullest models that GW can create. Warriors, Wyches, Venoms, Necron Warriors, C'tan etc and none of the really cool new stuff like the Razorwing Jetfighter, Incubi, Mandrakes, Lich Guard, Triarch Praetorians, and so forth. This really dissapointed me and because of this realization I quit any hope I had of playing either of those armies.

If GW would just come out with some of the variation in the Codex's again, maybe we could see some of these armies become reality. Add in the Necron Codex that you can do so and so's Lich Guard Legion that makes Lich Guard troops and able to take Ghost Arks but they can't take Necron Warriors or Immortals because so and so doesn't believe in them. I'm also not talking about making the special character do that either, I'm just talking about adding rules for a specific army without the need to take a special character, and still make the army fluffy and use some of the more neglected, yet awesome units that GW puts in the Codex's.

I think my biggest issue with GW is the lack of variety in the current Codex's and army styles. I understand this is to GW's benefit. If Venom spam and Necron Warrior Spam are the popular competitive armies, then GW will see an increase in sales of many of those units. They don't care that they aren't gonna sell many of the other units, maybe those units cost more to make, or their markup is less, or the combined sales of Necron Warriors and Venoms makes more, I don't know, all I do know is that GW is all about dumbing down (streamlining) and making Codex's work in one of 2 maybe 3 (if your lucky) playstyles.

I love going to a tournament and bringing an army that no one has seen before, and winning with it. I also love seeing other people do that. I brough an army that used 2 Stormravens and a whole bunch of Assault Marines and what not, the theme of the army was that everything was either flying in the Stormravens or had jetpacks, people looked at me like I was crazy because I wasn't doing Razorspam parking lot, DOA, 3 Raven Angels, and loved the look on all their faces when I came in 4th out of 64 people in the GT. When I can do things like that, I'm happy, but that is often rare and thanks to the newer Codex's becoming ever harder to do. In the future, if GW continues down this path, I think it will be impossible and the only way we will see fluffy or fun or themed armies will be in friendly non competitive games.

How about a profile for Chapter-specific Captains. The kit would just mean adding the chapter iconography to the SM Commander kit.

I am glad so many of you understaand and agree with what I am saying. Now if only GW would listen. Hopefully 6th will make some changes for the better. Time will tell.

I started with BFG, and one of the other gamers near me (who I ended up enlisting in the Navy with later) had played 40K while he was in the Army. I had both fleets at the time Chaos and Imp (I kept Chaos, and dint trade off ships like other people, so that there would be more options when we played)
So I was told, get into 40K and I will get into BFG. He bought a Marine Fleet, and bought a starter box (with Dark Eldar) and a ton of Guard. I got the Catch Codex, and was thrilled ot play jungle fighters. I bought the Armageddon codex, used the Marines I got from the starter box, and played those while I bought an ungodly number of Guard. I liked I could not take tanks, that was my draw back, so I had to take a ton of men.
The local stores, eveyone played SM, or more to the point, whatever Chapter Approved tossed out that month, they would repaint, and have a go at whatever was the Hawt New Army. So I had to adjust. I went Guard, got some tanks, and while I was very good at guess weapons because of BFG (which only a couple of us kept playing, even working it into our 40K games) I then started to notice something more.
While we had alot of two on two, and I built and bought my army to fit Ultramarines, I painted my guys with Blues, and was support (hey fluff) I dropped Mortors and Pie Plates from Bask over the Marines head, used Heavy Weapons to cover them, and put Guard on objectives to hold them while the Marines moved forward. (Army and Marine tactics) and it worked. the new Chapter Approved stuff we fought was nothing but new cheese that over powered other armies at times, but they never learned their army like me and my friend. They never got into the the back story, and were not ready for two people that worked very close together and knew what the other would do (said friend and I play AD&D, Cyberpunk and VtM and WtA together, we think as one when we have too)
Okay, long story out of the way, we had Fluff, we had back story, we named our HQ's, we painted togehter, and had fun. Then we would go to the game store and it was Marine, Marine, Marine...people didnt like there was drawbacks with BT, after all they got a cool tank, but they lost things, and it upset people. They wanted all the things, with none of the drawbacks. Like Chaos Marines not able to mix units (No Khorne and Thousand Sons at the same time)
So I make a few more armies (1000 Sons Chaos Marines, BT, Guard, Sisters of Battle before they were Witch Hunters) But again, same issue, people wanted what was new, and what let them play with no draw backs. So I leave the game. I see Black Reach, get a box, dig out my old stuff, fix it up a little, and start over. I get my friend back into it, and he goes Tau, then Ork, he lost his Dark Eldar and Nids over the years, but still had most of his Marines and all of his White Scars (lost a box with all 7 of his tanks)
We hit the game store again....and it's all Space Wolves and Space Wolves and some more of those...and they laughed at us because we were using the old system still, a few Eds behind. We update, find a couple to play 2 on 2, I put out my Chaos he puts out his Bikers, we go to fight Nids and Orks. I do fine, but we notice that the Orks were so anti Cannon and Fluff, that it was just guard with different stat lines...when asked, why his Orks were so un Orky, he looked at us, and asked what we were talking about. Seems he never read the fluff at all, he just the rules section.,..and his army was just on how he could min max points for a better win.
So I understand where OP comes from. People lost touch with their army, the story, and only care about what will make them look better on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I've found myself moving away from my Orks as well (not for good, of course. Too many modeling opportunities there!) and I've found myself getting drawn into Fantasy. I do think that maybe you should look at a different game for a while.

Heck, Fantasy, even though it's still GW, is a whole 'nother animal. There's a much, much larger range of armies (Empire and Brettonia are IG and Marines, Tomb Kings are Necrons, Orks are, well, Orcs, same with Daemons and Chaos, Dwarves are about the closest you get to Tau, and Beastmen might be Nids if you cock your head and squint- Skaven, Vampire Counts and Lizardmen have nothing similar!) and there's not as much 'penalty' for playing fluff, nor any special 'character rules' (at least not anymore). Plus the community seems to be a lot less comp-focused than 40K, allowing for more narrative games.

And there's another alternative! Leave the comp scene for a while and organize a Campaign. Work with some friends to create rules for the Salamanders repulsing an attack from Chaos or Orks or Nids, and have each new game reflect changes in terrain, reinforcements and units lost/gained in each match. Make Objectives actual objectives, where if you hold the downed Dread at the end of the game, you get an extra Dreadnaught in your next game, regardless of FoC. Won games give points that can be spent on bolstered defenses, or extra Orbital Bombardments, things like that.

You missed understood me. Its not really the game its the ideas behind the game. Its the lack of flavor in the codexes. The game is fine minus the codexes. I have done campaigns, they work really well actually. I put alot of thought behind them with fluff and everything. They can only last so long though. Someone eventually takes it all. I don't really play in any Tourneys anym ore because of this fact. Besides the newer generation of players are really not fun to play against. From my experiences that is. Most are very rude and don't care about anything but winning and winning at all costs as well.

As far as Fantasy. Yeah, I have tried and tried again at playing it. I am not a fan of the rank and file type troops and movement. Its just not my cup of tea. I have had Tomb kings, sold them. then I bought Ogres, sold them. Just bought the new Tomb kings book. Liked it for awhile then I stopped doing anything with it. Probably going to sell them as well. Its just not there for me.

I am just hoping for something different with 6th. Crossing figures.