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So I have been playing 40k for some 13 years now. Lately I have seen alot of changes that not only depress me about 40k but also maybe think it is not for me anymore. I want to know where the fluff went and why it isn't in the army lists any more. Back in 3rd Ed there was alot of different armies out there that had this. You had a codex that had a couple of different army listsin there. Take Codex:Armageddon, There was Salamanders, Ork: Speed Freek, Black Templars and Guard: Steel Legion. 4 very cool army lists that added to the fluff of Armageddon and who was fighting there. Now we have a character that makes the list and fluff.

Lets take He' stan for example. He is a captain of the salamnders chapter. He makes twin linked meltas and flamers. Ok so that seems to be all he does. That is not fluff. That is abilities that make him who he is. Where is the limitations to the army list? Where is the advantages that the salamanders have as a whole? I am so tired of seeing the same list for He' stan. So is that the only way Salamanders fight? There is alot of back ground to the salamanders and other chapters/ Armies alike. Why is everything the same?

I don't know whether to blame GW, or the people playing the game now. Maybe alittle bit of both. Maybe its just me. It seems like this game has fallen away from what made it great and fun. I am hoping for a change but I don't see one in the future.

Do you disagree with me or agree with me on this line of thinking? I hope not to offend or make anyone upset just a point of view.

That's a result of gaming becoming less of a niche and more mainstream in the last 10 years. Be it tabletop gaming or computer gaming or whatever. It's a business now, there's no room for lovingly crafted rules.

balsak_da_mighty wrote:Lets take He' stan for example. He is a captain of the salamnders chapter. He makes twin linked meltas and flamers. Ok so that seems to be all he does. That is not fluff. That is abilities that make him who he is. Where is the limitations to the army list? Where is the advantages that the salamanders have as a whole? I am so tired of seeing the same list for He' stan. So is that the only way Salamanders fight? There is alot of back ground to the salamanders and other chapters/ Armies alike.

It's the same problem I have with the special character dominated mentality of late 4th and all of 5th. The idea that in order to play Salamanders you have to bring the same character is just silly. But there is a reason...

balsak_da_mighty wrote:Why is everything the same?

Idea: Let's make models for famous 40K heroes and villains!
Problem 1: People will only ever buy one. Not a high volume sales item.
Problem 2: Most people won't buy them, choosing to use their own HQ's instead.
Solution 1: Make special characters integral to army design, so if you want to play a specific army you need the specific character.
Solution 2: Make special characters so good, that everyone wants to have them!
Profit: MONEY!

I get the making money part, But I think they could do different things to do that.

Why do they have to make all the characters. What happened to converting. The take away the bitz ordering so its harder to convert but yet they want us to. They really don't need to make a He' stan model in my opinion. Let us make him. Spend there time on units they have no models for. But that is really a different problem.

This happened to me after the change from 2nd to 3rd. The game became sooo different overnight, as well as most of my regular opponents moving away, I just lost my taste for the game.

I went away for 10 years, slightly more actually, and although I'm now entusiastic for the hobby as a whole again, I still don't have quite the same desire to play, and I'm happy painting and modelling with an occassional game. (I even base my miniatures now, whats THAT about?!!)

If you're not playing in a competitive environment, there's no reason you can't build your own characters (I have!) and there's plenty of bits sellers out there who have taken over from GW.

Oh I know about the bitz sellers its not an issue of i can't do this or that, its the issue of GW dropping there bitz and what not.

The problem alos is I don't play in a competitive enviroment. Whihc brings me to another point that I have not liked as of late. The tournaments have gotten horrible. There is no sportsmanship anymore. The lack of army comp has taken away from my tournament playing. Its a different monster now. People only care about winning and not about meeting new people and having fun. Ever since they started Ard boys, everyone uses Rogue Trader style Tourneys as practice rounds for Ard boys.

Yeah, I here that, quit M:TG for that very reason, my friends started getting serious, I wasn't, and when I spent 45 minutes doing nothing against my friend's blue/white tourney deck while he slowly plinked my life away, I walked!

Star Wars CCG, now there was a game I was keen on, even did ok at a few tourneys, but tragically anything played competitively tends to attract a certain kind of player, and they aren't always fun to play against.

Can only suggest you try and remind yourself what you loved about 40k in the first place, and try and get back to it, for me it was the fluff, which is why I started reading the HH books when they came out, and just slowly got drawn back in that way.

Sorry if I was a little patronising with the bits thing, but the internet hadn't been invented when I last built an army, so its new to me! ;-D

Ha ha ha, no thats fine.

Yes I get the MT:G remark. It seems like all the old MT:G players are moving to 40k. I think there play style is what is what offends me the most about the tourneys now. I just choose not to go anymore.

Thanks for the input.

I am 100% with the OP on this one.

I have played 40k for 20 odd years....

When I started I played marines like everyone else does..... I joined a group of guys where NONE of used marines..

It was amazing fun to play against everyother race...

I go to a GW store and all I see are SM vs SM matches and I get depressed....

Warhammer 40k has become Marinehammer... No love for the xeonos races... outdated codex etc.... yet when 6E pops the SM will get a codex within a year...... Sigh....

I am becoming very bored with 40k because all I ever fight are Marines,,,,,

I have bought a WHFB Dwarf army and am slowly building up a Fallschirmjager German army for FoW.

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm trying to be helpful with this: If you don't like the hobby, quit.

I stayed with a game system for years because all of my friends were, even though it made me miserable. I wishe that I could have gone back in time and just told myself to quit and find a new hobby. If 40k isn't your bag anymore, then maybe you can find something else that will have that same thrill. Unfortunately, I don't see a whole lot of internet conversation changing the business strategy of Games Workshop.

On a personal note, I wonder if some of this might be contextual. I play Salamanders, and I don't always play the same lists. Heck, I don't even play with Vulkan all of the time. I'm hardly going to sit here and tell you that you haven't had a different experience, but I wonder if you might have a different experience playing with different people?

That's all I've got really, but if you really are dissatisfied with the hobby, then you should try and find something else that will make you happier.

balsak_da_mighty wrote:The problem alos is I don't play in a competitive enviroment. Whihc brings me to another point that I have not liked as of late. The tournaments have gotten horrible. There is no sportsmanship anymore. The lack of army comp has taken away from my tournament playing. Its a different monster now. People only care about winning and not about meeting new people and having fun. Ever since they started Ard boys, everyone uses Rogue Trader style Tourneys as practice rounds for Ard boys.

This is what I like about my FLGS at least, the tournaments there are friendly, hell I bring a box of Tim-bits (doughnut holes or whatever else Americans call them) each time just to share with anyone else there, friend, opponent or random other player. While I do play GK, out of our regular turnout of around 20 people maybe half are Marines, and fortunately of many varieties (3 different C:SM lists, 2 different BA lists, a SW and myself with GK were all the marines in the last tournament I participated in). The rest are filled in with a variety of xeno players and a few IG.

Jimsolo wrote:I'm not trying to be mean, I'm trying to be helpful with this: If you don't like the hobby, quit.

I can't stand it when people say this.

Games Workshop is not 'the hobby'. The guy hasn't said that he's no longer interested in Wargaming.

Lately I have seen alot of changes that not only depress me about 40k but also maybe think it is not for me anymore. I want to know where the fluff went and why it isn't in the army lists any more. Back in 3rd Ed there was alot of different armies out there that had this. You had a codex that had a couple of different army listsin there. Take Codex:Armageddon, There was Salamanders, Ork: Speed Freek, Black Templars and Guard: Steel Legion. 4 very cool army lists that added to the fluff of Armageddon and who was fighting there. Now we have a character that makes the list and fluff.

As you started, much like myself, 13 years ago you must have noticed the change in writers and game designers. As time passes things change. My favorite writers have all left GW. I don't read the fluff in codexs anymore. Just the gaming information. And though the 4 armies per book idea was cool, in reality that was a marketing campaign for Steel Legion. The Orks already had their model range for the time. As did the 2(!) Marine armies. The Steel Legion were shiney and new and also released during the large army box releases (of which the Black Templars were the best GW deal ever, EVER!). The other problem that arose from the 4dexs... demand for more support. Black Templars got their own codex... which was completely unnecessary. The Steel Legion were replaced with DKoK. Now, people demand to have their LatD armies legalized.

Lets take He' stan for example. He is a captain of the salamnders chapter. He makes twin linked meltas and flamers. Ok so that seems to be all he does. That is not fluff. That is abilities that make him who he is. Where is the limitations to the army list? Where is the advantages that the salamanders have as a whole? I am so tired of seeing the same list for He' stan. So is that the only way Salamanders fight? There is alot of back ground to the salamanders and other chapters/ Armies alike. Why is everything the same?

He'Stan also makes master crafted Thunderhammers. So... if you play marines and like to take melta-weaponry and termies with TH/SS (which is more than half the marine players, I'm told) He'Stan makes alot of sense. And thatIS infact fluff. Salamanders are pyromaniacs. They also are master weaponsmiths. Smithys use hammers, fire and heat. I don't understand the "Why is everything the same?".

I don't know whether to blame GW, or the people playing the game now. Maybe alittle bit of both. Maybe its just me. It seems like this game has fallen away from what made it great and fun. I am hoping for a change but I don't see one in the future.

Blame GW for caring more about making money than us players. Blame the gamers for poiwergaming and ruining the fun for all of us. Blame the children and their love for all things power armoured!

Just spend some time doing something unrelated to 40k (or wargaming if thats the issue). I don't play 40k as often as I once did, eve though I have more free time than most. Now I paint more than play. And I play more XBOX than table top games.

This thread is rather off putting lol I just started properly collecting 40k for a change and I start with a marines army
Now I feel like a noob for playing SM

AtomicEngineer wrote:This thread is rather off putting lol I just started properly collecting 40k for a change and I start with a marines army
Now I feel like a noob for playing SM

Don't get disillusioned AtomicEngineer, almost half the codecies for 40K are SM of some kind. If you really like them by all means go with it, the hobby is about collecting an army you like. The OP is correct, the game has changed over the years and how it works now may not be to the liking of people that have been part of it for a long time, but that is never a reason for someone new not to try it out.

@JimSolo: Ok so you don't use He' stan all the time. Well then what really makes it a Salamanders army? Besides just the paint job. This is just kinda my point every army is the same with the exception of the HQ. An HQ does not make a chapter. A chapter and there force org and tactics and wargear makes them who they are. No one person.

@CrashCunuck: I applaud what you have. That is pretty much what I have to in a way. The lack of interest has fallin on all of us. We have always been a semi competitve but very fun and laid back group. The problem is lately we just haven't been feeling any of the follish changes that GW has beeen making. Whether it be the rules, codexs or what have you. We want to get back into it we just would like a better time at it I guess is what I am saying.

@Deffdred: But those little codexd were pretty good money makers if you ask me. Now you have 4 different armies tht people play in one dex and all must buy them. Seems smart to me. It was a marketing plan for the battle for Armageddon, not just Steel Legion. If that was the case why were they last in the Codex? But thats just my point is it gave us the players ome flavor with different take on the normal Ork list, Marine list, Guard list. That is what this game is missing IMHO, Flavor.

Onto your second point. He' stan does make TH master crafted. I agree it does work with there fluff a bit. But one man makes this happen. Not the chapter do you see what I am getting at? That one man makes the rules for the Salamander chapter. There is no real negative. There should be. They should have limitations on there fast attack choices. They should have cheaper master crafted weapons if they are so good and popular with the chapter. This is what my issues are with the game and the newer of the codex's. Lack of flavor. You even said it yourself that half the marine players use TH/SS terminators. And i would say a third to hal of them use He'stan. Hell maybe even more not because they love the Salamanders fluff or fighting style but because they get this neat little abillity to make TH's better. For no cost even.

I do, do other stuff. I have other hobbies or interests. Its just the fact that this hobby that I have spent plenty of time and money on is becoming somehting that I loved and it frustratesd me to no end that it is becoming something that I hate. I truely wish to keep playing it, my interst is still there in the back of my mind. One reason I am on here asking opinions on the matter. I want to know if I am the only one that feels this way or if there are others like me. At least to some extent.

@Atomic: Don't feel of putted. There is nothing wrong with Marines. They are the easiest to start out with and the easiest to paint and stuff. Not to mention they are so cool looking. What is not better then a bunch of power armored super humans running around? If you enjoy them keep them up.

If I could manage to find some way to implement it, my answer would be to find like-minded gamers and play earlier editions of 40K, and tell GW to shove their new codices and new rulebooks.

Maybe a Facebook page for disgruntled 40K players? Or, a DakkaDakka forum for such players?

When I started to lose interest I started playing the 40K RPG. Now I’m more interested than I ever was before.

Milisim wrote:I go to a GW store and all I see are SM vs SM matches and I get depressed....

My local GW is like this as well. In fact, one of the staff there has been almost begging my friend and I to go in and play a few Tyranid vs Dark Eldar games, probably to spur a bit of interest in the other regulars.

I've been having the same problem but i only started 7 years ago, so i started to looking into warmhordes and i thinking of buying a battlebox. Im not sure what it is but i sure this game is becoming almost stale to me? It may come back when / if 6th edition drops in summer but i don't know right now so what am i suppose to do?

{kidding}Can I buy your models for cheep?{/kidding}

oldone wrote:I've been having the same problem but i only started 7 years ago, so i started to looking into warmhordes and i thinking of buying a battlebox. Im not sure what it is but i sure this game is becoming almost stale to me? It may come back when / if 6th edition drops in summer but i don't know right now so what am i suppose to do?

I'd recommend picking up another wargame that's easy to get into. Maybe not Homachine, but Malifaux or Infinity (if you've got the terrain) for sure. Both game have their rules for free online, and you can right into the games with their starter boxes. You can then mothball your 40k stuff until you're ready to bring it back out again.

Milisim wrote:I am 100% with the OP on this one.

I have played 40k for 20 odd years....

When I started I played marines like everyone else does..... I joined a group of guys where NONE of used marines..

It was amazing fun to play against everyother race...

I go to a GW store and all I see are SM vs SM matches and I get depressed....

Warhammer 40k has become Marinehammer... No love for the xeonos races... outdated codex etc.... yet when 6E pops the SM will get a codex within a year...... Sigh....

I am becoming very bored with 40k because all I ever fight are Marines,,,,,

I have bought a WHFB Dwarf army and am slowly building up a Fallschirmjager German army for FoW.

I myself have played 40k for a long time and i play marines, but it haven't always...................
I used to play genestealers, was about 6-7ish (i'm 26 now) loved the fluff, loved the minis, loved the game.
didn't matter if your army was space marine,ork, elder or chaos, my genestealers were coming, and the're gonna eat your head.

Then I had a break from the hobby and returned when aobr came out. now i play a vanilla d.i.y chapter of space marines but agree with all of the above.

"I go to a GW store and all I see are SM vs SM matches and I get depressed...."

Yep

"Warhammer 40k has become Marinehammer... No love for the xeonos races... outdated codex etc.... yet when 6E pops the SM will get a codex within a year...... Sigh.... "

Yep (and i do love all the other races in 40k, except TAU because A:i can't say tau! B:greater GOOD in 40k!? eat short range bolter fire you xeno scum )

"I am becoming very bored with 40k because all I ever fight are Marines,,,,, "

Yep (or Orks)

oldone wrote:I've been having the same problem but i only started 7 years ago, so i started to looking into warmhordes and i thinking of buying a battlebox. Im not sure what it is but i sure this game is becoming almost stale to me? It may come back when / if 6th edition drops in summer but i don't know right now so what am i suppose to do?

Yeah that is so not an option for me. I hate that game even more. I used to play with a cryx army and a skorne army. I sold everything I have from them and vow never to play that game again. I am not a fan of the play style and rules of them game. It peaked my interest as it was different from 40k and they models looked kinda neat. If you are not a fan of powergaming then that is for sure not for you. It is all about that. I also describe it as MT:G with minitures. The combos that you have to do and what not. The last piece of cake for me was when I set up my army and lost before I even got to play. I said no more. I asked the other person was that fun? And he told me "Yay!"

Just some input on that game. Not trying to bash it for others. Its just not for me.

Nitros14 wrote:That's a result of gaming becoming less of a niche and more mainstream in the last 10 years. Be it tabletop gaming or computer gaming or whatever. It's a business now, there's no room for lovingly crafted rules.

So, I really don't understand this attitude.

40k used to be a game with a horribly bloated, confusing, and convoluted game that needed to be constantly "patched" by new special rules in their magazine that really only contributed to the problem, rather than fixing it. Having streamlined, standardized, simplified rules makes it a better game. What you call "lovingly crafted", I call "poorly designed". That fluff comes in the form of fluff, rather than bloat is a good thing.

40k still has a lot of fluff, you probably don't notice any more because the fluff is old, and you're more used to it. If you're missing it, it's probably because of the forces of hedonic slide and nostalgia. You remember when you were younger how everything was shiny and new and interesting. 14 years later, it's just not going to hold the same water, but you remember longingly back to your youth, and wish it could be the same. Like the old swingset in your yard or your favorite music from adolescence, it's just something whose time has passed. Either you keep with it in a new way, or you move on to other things.

balsak_da_mighty wrote:So I have been playing 40k for some 13 years now. Lately I have seen alot of changes that not only depress me about 40k but also maybe think it is not for me anymore.

Then quit and move on. Don't be such an attention-seeker and make the internet justify your opinion.

Thank you that is helpful. I thought that was what this forum was about. Talking out issues and problems. Am I wrong?

This is general discussion. Right?

So I think I may be missing something in this thread. Every codex has the option for different army builds that play very well into the fluff of certain factions. If you want to make a fluffy list, I still think you can. Someone mentioned that the fluff of the game should have special alterations to the FoC and not just be dominated by a certain special character. While I can sort of get behind that, what is stopping you from using units that only a certain chapter would use? Every codex breaks down the fluff around a faction, or chapter and describes the tactics they use and what units they typically run...so whats holding you back?

Now I'm sure the game changed a TON from 2nd and 3rd edition, but I think your argument should be geared more towards power gamers and the lack of creativity they have when building a list. I'm sure your getting sick of seeing lists being spammed, but the reality of it is, those people are having a great time playing in a competitive environment. Not to mention, just because those un-original spam lists are competitive, that does not mean a fluffy list isn't.

I myself love spam lists and I love winning. That doesn't mean I haven't gotten my ass kicked by a fluffy list, that just means I don't care about fluff and I love the look of my Mech Eldar mass serpent spam list.

I also think it depends where you play. The majority of my FLGS plays non space marine codexes. I do agree that it would get old playing Marine vs Marine all day, but that's not games workshops fault. I mean Marines have always been their baby, but the other races, IMO, are just as fun and competitive to play.

@Deffdred: But those little codexd were pretty good money makers if you ask me. Now you have 4 different armies tht people play in one dex and all must buy them. Seems smart to me. It was a marketing plan for the battle for Armageddon, not just Steel Legion. If that was the case why were they last in the Codex? But thats just my point is it gave us the players ome flavor with different take on the normal Ork list, Marine list, Guard list. That is what this game is missing IMHO, Flavor.

Onto your second point. He' stan does make TH master crafted. I agree it does work with there fluff a bit. But one man makes this happen. Not the chapter do you see what I am getting at? That one man makes the rules for the Salamander chapter. There is no real negative. There should be. They should have limitations on there fast attack choices. They should have cheaper master crafted weapons if they are so good and popular with the chapter. This is what my issues are with the game and the newer of the codex's. Lack of flavor. You even said it yourself that half the marine players use TH/SS terminators. And i would say a third to hal of them use He'stan. Hell maybe even more not because they love the Salamanders fluff or fighting style but because they get this neat little abillity to make TH's better. For no cost even.

Codex: Armageddon was alright. But there wasn't anything new in it.

Basically, it was a new (though simple) Ork rulesset. Which made people grab all their old retired orks and bring them back to the table. GW probly made a few bucks off of some old crappy trukks and buggies.

The Black Templars were same old marines with MOAR SCOUTS! and a forced HQ that didn't take a slot. Oh yeah, and the LR Crusader, which everyone got anyway.

Salamanders were same old marines with 2 assult weapons! wow! and an armour upgrade on tanks! and... a cape?

Atleast Xavier was cool. You know... when GW used to recognise him as a legal model.

And then the Steel Legion. Guard who have to ride in Chimeras fighting alongside closed topped Sentinels.

Your complaint about the Salamanders is kinda strange. Why would GW make a codex thats a copy paste of C:SM with a few lines changed? (Extra assualt weapons, cheaper TH ect.)

The characters of the new codex are there to act as a mini-dex. All the chapters in the book follow the codex. They don't have cool unique gear like the Blood Angels or Space Wolves.

I understand your fustration with Space Marines everywhere. My friend and I got tiredof it too. I sold my massive Ultra army. He's currently selling his Imperial Fists.

Now I have Orks and Dark Eldar.... and GKs I hate and have in the Swap Shop.

He has Eldar, Dark Eldar and Chaos marines. I know Chaos is still MEQ but, hey, at least theres some variety, both in choices and models.

Then again, my group of friends plays for fun. Power gamers are treated like kids on the short bus.

While I can sort of get behind that, what is stopping you from using units that only a certain chapter would use? Every codex breaks down the fluff around a faction, or chapter and describes the tactics they use and what units they typically run...so whats holding you back?

Because people like their army to be more than ‘counts as’ paint job armies. If someone wants to play Salamanders they might like to have rules that reflect the abilities and quirks of the Salamanders Chapter. At the same time, they might like to play their own Salamander leader, and not want Vulkan. Yet, in order to get the Salamander rules they have to play Vulkan.

Tying everything to special chars just makes for more lists that look the same.