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Beaviz81 wrote:Gorskar. It's quite illegal for grown men and young boys to get it on. Unfortunately I know, too much about the Greco-Roman society. Actually the comment about MW getting arrested was more meant as humor.

I get the "Ward Arrest," and it seems we're referring to different aspects of that culture.
I was referring to the "Spartan relationship," as it were, where two warriors ended up in the same regiment precisely because they were in a relationship.
They'd fight harder to impress each other, or so their commanders thought.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Gorskar. It's quite illegal for grown men and young boys to get it on. Unfortunately I know, too much about the Greco-Roman society. Actually the comment about MW getting arrested was more meant as humor.

I get the "Ward Arrest," and it seems we're referring to different aspects of that culture.
I was referring to the "Spartan relationship," as it were, where two warriors ended up in the same regiment precisely because they were in a relationship.
They'd fight harder to impress each other, or so their commanders thought.

Seriously, this is knowledge you don't want. It's Dark Eldar twisted. No joke. For the men fighting harder because of love, that's the Sacred Band, the fighters that actually beat up the Spartans. Not that the Spartans were opposed to a little fun in the barrack. Well a very disturbing thing about the Space Marines are how they take on the power armour together, I have cracked jokes about that before in the celibacy-thread over at WH40k background.

Durza wrote:
The degenerate part is in the codex.

I can’t seem to find it strangely.

There is a crucial difference between GW telling us that the Ultramarines are the greatest Chapter and the Ultramarines themselves proclaiming that they are the greatest Chapter. The latter would be pretty arrogant, while the former is merely GW describing the background. This is like saying the Dark Angels go around telling everyone that they have a big secret but aren't telling what it is.

Durza wrote:
The degenerate part is in the codex. The interview gave us the part saying that the "Ultramarines are the best Space Marine chapter out there. No really! They have to work harder than everyone else too." Which a pretty odd thing to say for a representative of GW to a magazine about Warhammer.

The Ultramarines were described as "the greatest" Chapter since 2nd Edition. This is not Matt Ward's invention. Though he was not very delicate in describing that.

I don't mind them. Their fluff can get irritating at times, but then again, Titus.
Just
Titus.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:I don't mind them. Their fluff can get irritating at times, but then again, Titus.
Just
Titus.

GOD YES, I FORGOT.

With the latest Space Marine Codex, and the omniscient being Matt Ward, then you know it's extremely heavily slanted towards the Ultramarines no matter what's stated in the past. The Space Marine Codex sure as hell ain't written from a neutral standpoint as I doubt the Imperial Fists f.ex. would describe the Ultramarines in such extremely flattering terms. Or how about the Raven Guard? And why shouldn't the Ultramarines describe themselves as the greatest chapter? They emerged as the victors of the Horus Heresy. They held the IOM together on their own, and if the Ultramarines reek of anything it's arrogance (just look at the bloody name for God's sake). But then again some people takes the fluff written down literally, others doesn't. The only thing known is that the two groups will never agree on anything.

Side note: I'm not stupid, so stating fluff is unnecessary no matter what. I have already read the damn Codex, and I have a burning wish of not reading it twice.

Beaviz81 wrote:With the latest Space Marine Codex, and the omniscient being Matt Ward, then you know it's extremely heavily slanted towards the Ultramarines no matter what's stated in the past. The Space Marine Codex sure as hell ain't written from a neutral standpoint as I doubt the Imperial Fists f.ex. would describe the Ultramarines in such extremely flattering terms.

2nd Edition was where GW had established the 40K universe as we still know it today. They have since added the Dark Eldar and the Tau, and fleshed out the Necrons (they only had experimental rules for Warriors and Scarabs in 2nd Edition). They have introduced Hive Fleet Leviathan and the Third War for Armageddon, and made the Black Templars into a divergent Chapter instead of being a Codex Chapter. So while they have mainly added new factions and events, some minor details aside, the 2nd Edition background is still current. The 5th Edition Marine Codices even outright copy and paste most of their background material from the 2nd Edition Codices. The pages 6 to 16 from the Codex Space Martines are taken almost verbatim from the Codex Ultramarines. What Matt Ward added to the Codex were short stories about some famous deeds of the Chapters.

Beaviz81 wrote: And why shouldn't the Ultramarines describe themselves as the greatest chapter? They emerged as the victors of the Horus Heresy. They held the IOM together on their own, and if the Ultramarines reek of anything it's arrogance (just look at the bloody name for God's sake).

Interestingly enough, the Deathwatch sourcebooks explicitly describe the Ultramarines as less arrogant than other chapters. The only arrogant Ultramarines are stated to be the insane ones.

Beaviz81 wrote: But then again some people takes the fluff written down literally, others doesn't. The only thing known is that the two groups will never agree on anything.

Well we all like fanfiction, but I can’t go around just making stuff up.

Beaviz81 wrote:With the latest Space Marine Codex, and the omniscient being Matt Ward, then you know it's extremely heavily slanted towards the Ultramarines no matter what's stated in the past. The Space Marine Codex sure as hell ain't written from a neutral standpoint as I doubt the Imperial Fists f.ex. would describe the Ultramarines in such extremely flattering terms. Or how about the Raven Guard? And why shouldn't the Ultramarines describe themselves as the greatest chapter? .

Why do you doubt the Imperial Fist or Raven Guard would do that? Even disregarding the 5th Edition book, the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex by Haines and NcNeill, as shown before to see that, quote: "Of the First Founding Chapters, or Primogenitor Chapters as they are sometimes known, the most famous are the Ultramarines of Macragge, the Chapter of the Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself. The Codex is not enforced - indeed it is debateable whether any force exists that could do so - and there are many Chapters, such as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves, whose organisation varies from its teaching to a greater or lesser extent. It can be promoted, though, [...] By their reverent obediance to the tenets of the Codex, these Chapters [e.g. Codex Chapter] do honour to their forebears, to Roboute Guilliman, and to the Emperor himself."

I can understand that, if you don't like Ultramarines, you would want to see the chapters you favour more to take a more distanced, critical stance towards the Ultramarines. But that's just not how it is written. Not in 5th, not in 4th, not in 3rd, not in 2nd Edition. Reverent (!) and non-forced odediance is what Imperial Fists and Raven Guard do, and they do so to honor not only their own and the Emperor, but also explicilty to honour Guilliman. It's not Ward's fault. Its just the way it has always been.


Also, again, I dare anyone compare the "non-Ultramarines" contents in the 4th Edition book (about 6 to 8 pages, including "hobby-section"; hell, even the army list has Ultramarine-icons on every single page and every single artwork) to the "non-Ultramarines" contents in the 5th Edition book (30 pages or more easily), as well as for the first time since 3rd Edition a completely "neutral" army list with generic "Sternguard" and "Honour Guard" instead of explicitly UM-named "Tyranid War Veterans" or "Calgar Honour Guard". 5th Edition is the most "non-Ultramarine"-friendy generic Space Marine Codex ever written.

Because I rationalize something that looks like a bad piece of propaganda, but then again, people also follow the bible or some other religious book word for word (not recommended). Also you stated they ain't arrogant, what about the name? The part that they pout in that RPG about Space Marines unless put in charge? That for me speaks volumes about their arrogance.

For me, everything seems to be written by an Ultramarine scribe, punctum finale. For you Gree, it's from a neutral guy for reasons I can't fathom. We will never even come close to respect eachother's opinion on that subject.

Beaviz81 wrote:Because I rationalize something that looks like a bad piece of propaganda, but then again, people also follow the bible or some other religious book word for word (not recommended).
.

There is a difference between a holy text and a wargaming sourcebook intended to introduce players to the fictional history and the fundamental character of the faction they choose to play in.

Beaviz81 wrote: Also you stated they ain't arrogant, what about the name? .

A pun based on their armor color. Rogue Trader had all sorts of stuff like that.

Beaviz81 wrote: The part that they pout in that RPG about Space Marines unless put in charge? That for me speaks volumes about their arrogance.

You realize they state that only insane Ultramarines do that right? And that’s not a character element of normal members of the chapter?

Beaviz81 wrote:
For me, everything seems to be written by an Ultramarine scribe, punctum finale. For you Gree, it's from a neutral guy for reasons I can't fathom. We will never even come close to respect eachother's opinion on that subject.

Well actually much of what I’m taking is from the Second Edition Ultramarine Codex, written by Jervis Johnson and Rick Priestley. You do know who those guys are right? Priestly pretty much invented 40k and Johnson used to run GW IP back in the day. Heck, one of the cowriters if the current GW head of IP.

Zweischneid wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:With the latest Space Marine Codex, and the omniscient being Matt Ward, then you know it's extremely heavily slanted towards the Ultramarines no matter what's stated in the past. The Space Marine Codex sure as hell ain't written from a neutral standpoint as I doubt the Imperial Fists f.ex. would describe the Ultramarines in such extremely flattering terms. Or how about the Raven Guard? And why shouldn't the Ultramarines describe themselves as the greatest chapter? .

Why do you doubt the Imperial Fist or Raven Guard would do that? Even disregarding the 5th Edition book, the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex by Haines and NcNeill, as shown before to see that, quote: "Of the First Founding Chapters, or Primogenitor Chapters as they are sometimes known, the most famous are the Ultramarines of Macragge, the Chapter of the Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself. The Codex is not enforced - indeed it is debateable whether any force exists that could do so - and there are many Chapters, such as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves, whose organisation varies from its teaching to a greater or lesser extent. It can be promoted, though, [...] By their reverent obediance to the tenets of the Codex, these Chapters [e.g. Codex Chapter] do honour to their forebears, to Roboute Guilliman, and to the Emperor himself."

I can understand that, if you don't like Ultramarines, you would want to see the chapters you favour more to take a more distanced, critical stance towards the Ultramarines. But that's just not how it is written. Not in 5th, not in 4th, not in 3rd, not in 2nd Edition. Reverent (!) and non-forced odediance is what Imperial Fists and Raven Guard do, and they do so to honor not only their own and the Emperor, but also explicilty to honour Guilliman. It's not Ward's fault. Its just the way it has always been.

That RG called RD a rebel, and the Imperial Navy actually fired at him while RG was serving a High Lord would likely not get the Imperial Fists to happy about the Ultramarines. Sure they are allies, but I somehow doubt their friendship. Just try to ask anyone, if they are great friends with a guy who has directly or indirectly coerced you. You already know the answer.

Beaviz81 wrote:
That RG called RD a rebel, and the Imperial Navy actually fired at him while RG was serving a High Lord would likely not get the Imperial Fists to happy about the Ultramarines. Sure they are allies, but I somehow doubt their friendship. Just try to ask anyone, if they are great friends with a guy who has directly or indirectly coerced you. You already know the answer.

Two guys 10.000 years ago had a disagreement. For 10.000 years of 10.000.000 battles 10.000.000.000 of Fists and Ultarmarines have been loyals allies and brothers in arms. Noone's gonna give a feth about what the Primarchs did 10.000 years ago. Most likely, noone even knows they had disagreements because.... wait for it.. it is known to the reader by an omniscient narrator: not in-universe where Primarchs are likely fairly distant, idolized "gods" (in the non-worshiping way of course).

How much do you know about a quarral of two army leaders over 10.000 years ago? Before even ancient Eqypt or Rome was even remotely conceived of? Hell, you don't even need as much time. Look at how much American's for example rever their "founding fathers". Does it matter that Hamilton and Jefferson couldn't stand each other? It doesn't matter one bit. And that's less than an average Space Marines lifetime ago.

Oh go on Gree tell me the difference between holy text and wargaming sourcebook delivered to you by the Ultramarines themselves.

No it's an actual rule. The Ultramarine must be in charge or you loose cohesion-points.

Gree mark the words: ULTRAMARINE CODEX. That's Ultramarine Codex, it's how they view themselves. This is kind of unbelievable. So that settles it, it's an Ultramarine scribe.

Beaviz81 wrote:
That RG called RD a rebel,.

Which he was, the High Lords were decreeing a change with the Codex Astartes and Rogal Dorn was rebelling against that.

Beaviz81 wrote:
and the Imperial Navy actually fired at him while RG was serving a High Lord would likely not get the Imperial Fists to happy about the Ultramarines. Sure they are allies, but I somehow doubt their friendship. Just try to ask anyone, if they are great friends with a guy who has directly or indirectly coerced you. You already know the answer.

Maybe because the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists had spent the years of the Scouring fighting side by side against the Iron Warriors? Maybe because Guilliman had pleaded with Dorn not to enter the Iron Cage trap alone, and in the end came to relieve him? Maybe because Dorn is one of four Primarchs who had been honored with a statue next to Guilliman's in the Ultramarines' Hall of Honour?

Oh read about the SW and DA Zweuichnech (couldn't you choose a nick more easy to spell?). They bicker as wolves and lions do today (the rare occasions they meet) I honestly doubt the unforgiving Imperial Fists like the Ultramarines much at all. They are allies, not friends.

Beaviz81 wrote:Oh go on Gree tell me the difference between holy text and wargaming sourcebook delivered to you by the Ultramarines themselves.

A bible is a book of religious significance. The Space Marine Codex is a wargaming document written up by some British guys twenty years ago, then another British guy choose to reprint much of it just a few years back. It’s a fictional history about toy soldiers intended to tell us the basic history and character of a chapter.

Beaviz81 wrote:
No it's an actual rule. The Ultramarine must be in charge or you loose cohesion-points.

Rules are inrelvant. Fluff is the only thing that matters.

Beaviz81 wrote:
Gree mark the words: ULTRAMARINE CODEX. That's Ultramarine Codex, it's how they view themselves. This is kind of unbelievable. So that settles it, it's an Ultramarine scribe.

No, nowhere in the Codex does it say that it’s how they view themselves. It is simply a sourcebook describing the fundamental character and history of the chapter. Codices don’t tend to be written in-universe unless it’s by specific snippets. Otherwise the Dark Angels and Black Templar codices would not contain much.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beaviz81 wrote:Oh read about the SW and DA Zweuichnech (couldn't you choose a nick more easy to spell?). They bicker as wolves and lions do today (the rare occasions they meet) I honestly doubt the unforgiving Imperial Fists like the Ultramarines much at all. They are allies, not friends.

Which is why Dorn has a statue next to Guilliman in Ultramar and the Fists study the Codex as close as the Ultramarines do right?

Beaviz81 wrote:Oh read about the SW and DA Zweuichnech (couldn't you choose a nick more easy to spell?). They bicker as wolves and lions do today (the rare occasions they meet) I honestly doubt the unforgiving Imperial Fists like the Ultramarines much at all. They are allies, not friends.

It's not what the Codexes say. The Codexes say, quote again, the Imperial Fist are all up in "reverent obedience" to the Codex and passionatly honour Guilliman. You may not like it. You might think it would have made more sense otherwise. But its just not the way it is. It is like saying I woulda have preferred if Han Solo would have dumbed Luke Skywalker and went his own ways. Nice. But it's not how the story was told.

It's practical to dismiss as you see fit Gree, ain't it? The Ultramarines must be in charge or everything goes to hell. Arrogance much?

And note the basic history of a chapter, that's not neutral, that's biased already. Ultramarines Codex already.

Ultramarines Codex already. My God, they had that back in their own Codex, and they view themselves that way.

I didn't dispute the Fists and Ultramarines to be allies nor the Fists adherence to the Codex Astartes, I just don't think the Fists would regard the Ultramarines that high. They are honored allies, but I doubt the Fists really like the Ultramarines much, as for the statue Zweihander. Well standing next to each other proves you can stand each other, but not that they were hetrosexual lifepartners. In the movie Ultramarines (which amount of canon varies for me) Nidon was very happy waving his bolter at the face of the Ultramarines.

Beaviz81 wrote:It's practical to dismiss as you see fit Gree, ain't it? The Ultramarines must be in charge or everything goes to hell. Arrogance much?

Where did I say they must be in charge?

Beaviz81 wrote:
And note the basic history of a chapter, that's not neutral, that's biased already. Ultramarines Codex already.

How is explaining the history of something biased? I guess in order for something to be non-biased for you there must be no history or fluff at all.

Beaviz81 wrote:
Ultramarines Codex already. My God, they had that back in their own Codex, and they view themselves that way.

Do you have any actual proof that they view themselves that way or are you making stuff up again? Codex Dark Angels is probably not how the Dark Angels view themselves either, as most of the Dark Angels is kept under wraps about the Fallen and their history is shrouded in secrets and lies. Yet the Dark Angel Codex clearly explains that.

Beaviz81 wrote:
I didn't dispute the Fists and Ultramarines to be allies, I just don't think the Fists would regard the Ultramarines that high. They are honored allies, but I doubt the Fists really like the Ultramarines much, as for the statue Zweihander. Well standing next to each other proves you can stand each other.

I’m not sure why the Fists would not like the Ultramarines. Dorn and Guilliman had a briefly disagreement, but in Dorn’s own article once that was resolved he was noted to have wholeheartedly embraced the Codex Astartes. Apart from those issues, Rogal Dorn and Roboute Guilliman probably got along pretty well, and only had a brief disagreement over the division of the Legions. They had a very similar world view, and both valued duty and honourable conduct. In the Hall of Honour on Macragge there are the statues of four other Primarchs next to the statue of Guilliman, and one of them is of Rogal Dorn. In the Iron Cage incident, Guilliman intervened because he was not prepared to sacrifice Dorn for the chance to get Perturabo.

Beaviz81 wrote:
Well standing next to each other proves you can stand each other.

They have only four other statues standing next to Guilliman in their Hall of Honor. Something tells me they don’t just put anybody in there.

Beaviz81 wrote:
In the movie Ultramarines (which amount of canon varies for me) Nidon was very happy waving his bolter at the face of the Ultramarines.

Perhaps that might have to do with his entire company being slaughtered?

Beaviz81 wrote:
Gree mark the words: ULTRAMARINE CODEX. That's Ultramarine Codex, it's how they view themselves. This is kind of unbelievable. So that settles it, it's an Ultramarine scribe.

By that same logic, orks are damned literate and capable of writing some very detailed history, if Codex: Orks is anything to go by.

Oh how mature, I'm making up stuff. Of course I must be making up stuff when it was the freaking Ultramarine Codex, Ultramarine Codex, their own Codex. Of course that's me making up stuff. It's how they view themselves. Pure and simple.

The problem with all history is that it's completely biased. You managed to contradict yourself there Gree.

The Ultramarines was indirectly responsible for the Iron Cage. I'm sure the Fists really love the Ultramarines after everything.

Still the penalty is there unless the guy is put in charge. Arrogance.

I would rather have put it to Nidon protecting that precious book of his, but okay. Well anyway he was rather keen to aim his bolter at the Ultramarines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:
Gree mark the words: ULTRAMARINE CODEX. That's Ultramarine Codex, it's how they view themselves. This is kind of unbelievable. So that settles it, it's an Ultramarine scribe.

By that same logic, orks are damned literate and capable of writing some very detailed history, if Codex: Orks is anything to go by.

Yarrick can translate for you.

Beaviz81 wrote:Oh how mature, I'm making up stuff. Of course I must be making up stuff when it was the freaking Ultramarine Codex, Ultramarine Codex, their own Codex. Of course that's me making up stuff. It's how they view themselves. Pure and simple.

Well when we having nothing actually saying that then you are just making stuff up since it did not exist before.

Certainly if the Ultramarines Codex is how they view themselves, and not something simply describing the Chapter, then everybody in the Dark Angels Chapter must know about the Fallen instead of just the Inner Circle and the Orks are surprisingly literate and articulate.

Beaviz81 wrote:
The problem with all history is that it's completely biased. You managed to contradict yourself there Gree.

How is it completely biased?

Beaviz81 wrote:
The Ultramarines was indirectly responsible for the Iron Cage. I'm sure the Fists really love the Ultramarines after everything.

Well considering that Guilliman begged Dorn to let him aid him during the attack and Dorn refused. (IA IW) I would say that’s not the case. In any case Dorn willingly going into the Iron Cage was his decision.
But I’m sure any rational human being would be grateful to somebody who saved their life.

I think Guilliman probably got on very well with Rogal Dorn. They had similar ideas of duty and conduct. There was that incident where Dorn had not wanted to divide his Legion, but by the time of the 2nd Founding he had ultimately agreed to do so, and the Imperial Fists Chapter and Crimson Fists Chapter had been made into very Codex adherent Chapters. Aside from that incident, the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines had cooperated closely during the scouring, fighting a ten years crusade against the Iron Warriors, and the Ultramarines coming to bail out the Imperial Fists in the Iron Cage incident. And of course there is the fact that Dorn is one of four Primarchs who had been given a statue next to Guilliman's in the Ultramarines' fortress monastery.

People often think that Dorn hated Guilliman because of the introduction of the Codex Astartes and their disagreement about it, but I think that was just a disagreement between friends, being heated due to the troubling times they were in. They seemed to get along well before and after that disagreement.

Beaviz81 wrote:
Still the penalty is there unless the guy is put in charge. Arrogance.

Again, rules don’t matter. But I’m not quite sure it’s arrogance. The Deathwatch book notes that Ultramarines often make the best leaders and logically without them the team would not be as good without an Ultramarine leading them.

Beaviz81 wrote:
I would rather have put it to Nidon protecting that precious book of his, but okay. Well anyway he was rather keen to aim his bolter at the Ultramarines.

Considering he was a combat veteran just out of a bloody warzone that’s to be expected.

<thread terminated; ridiculously heated>

It's amazing how worked up some of you are getting about the fictional stories that accompany this game. Here's a tip: if you find yourself pounding angrily at the keyboard in response to another poster, you are TOO INVESTED IN THE DISCUSSION, and should walk away for a while.