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Crimson Fists get a lot of face time in 40k, along with some of the other founding Chapters. There is a huge discrepancy in the amount of attention that some Chapters receive, and while you'd expect the founding Chapters to all get at least a modicum of that attention, it just isn't so. *CoughcoughIronHandscoughcough* While I understand that the Chapters that Forgeworld and Games Workshop are going to support are pretty established, I think it can kind of wear on those who do not play a Chapter that gets all the love. I am lucky to have a Special Character and some decals. I'm not lucky enough to have gotten Chapter symbols for my drop pods. It's all a balancing act, and I'm not going to blame people for being disgruntled with the 'favorite sons' of the company.

Big fan of the Ultramarines, they were my army of choice when I started building a few months ago. I'll admit it right now its entirely because of the videogame Space Marine, I'm sure lots of people have said this but I suspect I'm in the minority of people that actually has the time and money to throw away to actually make something of worth. That said, I've not read much in the way of the books other than committing my codex to memory.

But yea, its the Ferrari effect for me... you don't paint a Ferrari any color other than red and you don't paint space marines purple, the Italian sports car is just kind of suppose to be red and the space marines just don't look right in colors other than blue. Something about it just doesn't feel right.

Jimsolo wrote:Crimson Fists get a lot of face time in 40k, along with some of the other founding Chapters. There is a huge discrepancy in the amount of attention that some Chapters receive, and while you'd expect the founding Chapters to all get at least a modicum of that attention, it just isn't so. *CoughcoughIronHandscoughcough* While I understand that the Chapters that Forgeworld and Games Workshop are going to support are pretty established, I think it can kind of wear on those who do not play a Chapter that gets all the love. I am lucky to have a Special Character and some decals. I'm not lucky enough to have gotten Chapter symbols for my drop pods. It's all a balancing act, and I'm not going to blame people for being disgruntled with the 'favorite sons' of the company.

Oh I know that Crimsons had a lot of time for awhile, and Black Templar are on the cover of the 40K rule book for 3rd edition. But what I want is not a focus on anyone thing, but rather all of them. It's great that space marines sell, keeps the company afloat, but they do it at the expense of everything else it seem. Have different months where everyone is focused on just one army. The whole website celebrate Necron November, Sisters' September, Eldar February... idk. Something where for a certain time they will do more focus on one army, maybe even discounts, just to that people are seeing more time with things other then ultramarines, or crimson fists, or whoever is the poster for the time. Let the entire game be the poster, because there's alot more there then in just one army.

They'd need to include fantasy and LoTR in this sort of idea to, but that'd only help with promotion!

I like them a lot... but BT are cool, so are DA, Orks, Tau, etc...

They're my 2nd army, back in 1996 after about 5 years of playing Eldar.

Still love them, still do reasonably well with them, still love the haters... lets me play with a chip on my shoulder.

I love the idea that you can objectively hate something. Isn't like or dislike inherently subjective?

Anyway, I voted love. I've been playing Ultras since before there were any rules to differentiate between different Marine armies ('cept the Woofs) and when the colour of your armour was just the colour of your armour. Before Ward, before even the 2nd Ed Codex: Ultramarines. Back when I started, Ultramarines were different because they were blue, and that's it.

I like them so you can all suck my ridges!! =)

Galdos wrote:I dont hate the Ultramarines, infact I actually like them. I just hate the way Matt Ward writes about them

This

Don't hate them at all. However I like chapters with slightly different traits or tendencies. Picked the sallies back in 3rd ed when they had a lower initiative but got the bennies of 2 flamers in a squad, chappies with thunderhammers, multi-meltas on razorbacks, etc. Gave them an indentity different then "vanilla" marines. Then the Sallies got "vanilla-fied". Fortunately taking Vulkan helps fix that in 5th ed

If I ever did "Vanilla" marines, I'd go with Imperial Fists for the challenge of painting yellow

The poll seems to be indicating that its a very vocal minority that hates the Ultramarines so far.

I'm actually really enjoying this thread, there have been some really interesting posts so far.
Interestingly, I'd agree with the KamikazeCanuck here, the poll's indicating a hell of a lot less hate than I was expecting.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:There is no way to objectively hate the Ultramarines because all Ultramarines hate is based on the absolute dumbest reasons possible, and much of them rooted in misinformation or gross misinterpretation.

And is this comment supposed to be objective? All the people who dislike ultramarines have given valid, proper reasons.

No, no they haven't. They give the same reasons every time. And every time, they're still for absolutely idiotic reasons, mostly rooted in misinformation or misinterpretation.

Your post above being a classic example of this. You know, because Calgar is the only Special Character with an absurdly over the top series of background stories. Or that they "almost always come out victorious" (oh wait, they don't, and wait, the Space Marines are the protagonists of the setting and typically win no matter what chapter). And then, lastly, hating them because of some fictional gamer type nobody has ever met, and sounds like an invented cardstock person. So yeah, I'm spot on.

You do realise that it's just as easy to say that people who like the Ultramarines only like them for idiotic reason, don't you?

Anyway, I don't like the Ultramarines, but I don't dislike them either. The only thing that really grates with me is the 'holier than thou' attitude Ward decided they have.

Durza wrote:You do realise that it's just as easy to say that people who like the Ultramarines only like them for idiotic reason, don't you?

It's just as easy to say, because typing or vocalizing thoughts is incredibly easy. But that statement itself is idiotic.

The vast majority of stated reasons for hating the Ultramarines are based on misinformation or misinterpretation. There are a handful of valid haters out there, even if one wonders how such a strong opinion could be made regarding imaginary references to toy soldiers. One guy in another thread that he didn't think the Ultramarines were grimdark enough for the setting. I don't agree with it, and I felt his reasoning wasn't compelling at all, but I can't argue against his like or dislike based on a subjective interpretation of the setting. On the other hand, arguments like I discussed above are just wrong. There's nothing subjective about them, because objectively they don't hold any water at all.

However, on the flip side, for someone to like the Ultramarines, it's merely subjective, which isn't idiotic, typically. If someone said they loved the Ultramarines, then I'd sorta raise an eyebrow at them. But again, that love is going to be based on subjectivity. For people to say they couldn't care less about the Ultramarines, or were neutral to the Ultramarines, that's really the lowest opinion you can reasonably level against something to do with 40K unless you can provide an objective basis to the opinion. I mean, someone can fall back to the "Well, I just don't like them", but I'm still going to think they're an idiot. As should any other reasonable person.

Durza wrote:The only thing that really grates with me is the 'holier than thou' attitude Ward decided they have.

Of course, the interesting part of this statement is that nowhere in Matt Ward's Codex: Space Marines is that suggested. It's an idea entirely of your own imagining. Or, just as bad, somebody else's imaginary idea that you're mindlessly parroting.

Azure wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:Crimson Fists get a lot of face time in 40k, along with some of the other founding Chapters. There is a huge discrepancy in the amount of attention that some Chapters receive, and while you'd expect the founding Chapters to all get at least a modicum of that attention, it just isn't so. *CoughcoughIronHandscoughcough* While I understand that the Chapters that Forgeworld and Games Workshop are going to support are pretty established, I think it can kind of wear on those who do not play a Chapter that gets all the love. I am lucky to have a Special Character and some decals. I'm not lucky enough to have gotten Chapter symbols for my drop pods. It's all a balancing act, and I'm not going to blame people for being disgruntled with the 'favorite sons' of the company.

Oh I know that Crimsons had a lot of time for awhile, and Black Templar are on the cover of the 40K rule book for 3rd edition. But what I want is not a focus on anyone thing, but rather all of them. It's great that space marines sell, keeps the company afloat, but they do it at the expense of everything else it seem. Have different months where everyone is focused on just one army. The whole website celebrate Necron November, Sisters' September, Eldar February... idk. Something where for a certain time they will do more focus on one army, maybe even discounts, just to that people are seeing more time with things other then ultramarines, or crimson fists, or whoever is the poster for the time. Let the entire game be the poster, because there's alot more there then in just one army.

They'd need to include fantasy and LoTR in this sort of idea to, but that'd only help with promotion!

Azure speaks the truth.

The problem is that GW focuses on Space Marines because they sell more than the other models. It's not that they sell more Space Marines because they advertise them more. They've tried in the past to boost sales of other armies, and people still want more Space Marines.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Durza wrote:One guy in another thread that he didn't think the Ultramarines were grimdark enough for the setting. I don't agree with it, and I felt his reasoning wasn't compelling at all, but I can't argue against his like or dislike based on a subjective interpretation of the setting.

Yay! People are talking about me!

But yeah, I voted that I disliked the Ultramarines. Voting that you hated or loved them would be weird, as Veteran Sergeant said.

I quite like them, despite some recent irritating fluff (like Krakens Swarmlord being killed by Calgar - after it already fought him and won with Behemoth). I like how they've carved out a mini Empire, and their Roman theme. I even like their colours.

I wouldn't ever collect them, because I'm pretty much over Space Marines entirely. But, aside from some odd fluff and fanwank from Mat Ward, I've never seen a reason for outright hating them.

Most of you may have seen this already, but it sums up why people hate Mat. The majority don't hate the UM because of who they are, but because of what Mat Ward suddenly made them.

Thing is though, that's a bit of personal fanwank that is not in actual fluff (the spritual leige crap). The other stuff (writing a lot about their victories on campaign) is just usual Space Marine codex fluff.

-Loki- wrote:Thing is though, that's a bit of personal fanwank that is not in actual fluff (the spritual leige crap). The other stuff (writing a lot about their victories on campaign) is just usual Space Marine codex fluff.

Yes, but when the lead designer/writer guy says that about them it taints people's views as it shows the book was designed with the UM in mind, putting them deliberately above the rest etc etc.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:s it shows the book was designed with the UM in mind, putting them deliberately above the rest etc etc.

That should be no surprise to anyone paying attention. The original Codex: Space Marines was called Codex: Ultramarines. The painting guides in every C:SM are how to paint Ultramarines. In fact they were called "Painting Ultramarines" and "Painting Ultramarines Tanks" in the 4th Edition SM codex, and 3rd Edition had "How to Paint an Ultramarine". Codex: Ultramarines called them "The Greatest of all Space Marine Chapters", right on the back cover. I don't understand where the idea comes from that the Ultramarines being the exemplar and best of the chapters is some invention of Matt Ward's.

They've pretty much always been the best. Or at least longer than most people have been playing 40K. I guess the old guys like myself who started playing in Rogue Trader can bitch about this. But... why bother? I mean, in theory somebody has to be the best. Might as well be the Ultramarines.

There are more threads about peoples' opinions on Ultramarines than on Ultramarines themselves.
That is all.

I hate that shade of blue, other than that, my demons like them just fine.

Should have know your a demons played Frazzled due to your evilness....and wiener dogs.

You would think they would've gone for Crimson Fists, condering the RT cover depicted them not UM.

Woah, Frazzled is no longer a mod? Christ do I suddenly feel old, and I'm not even 20.

On topic: I like the Ultramarines, I just hate the attention they get. When written well, the Ultras are complex because their image causes tension with others, and themselves. The problem is GW pimps them so much lesser writers also have to make canon for them. I wouldn't mind them being the poster child if GW wrote exclusively interesting stories about them, instead of power fantasies and gun porn.

If they cut the Space Marine's gallery, in the main rulebook, down to the same amount as everyone else's, and just kept half of the pictures as the boys in blue, I'd be fine with that. I don't even mind the additional full spread of a deployed company; who better to display this pervasive doctrine than the progenitors? Using that saturation as a model for the rest of the fluff, especially the codex, I think the Ultras could rebuild their mythos.

I'm between dislike and hate. They always strike me as a bunch of attention seeking glory boys.

I actually really like them they were the first ever 500 points of mine =P

Love them. Even more after Know No Fear.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

Yes, but when the lead designer/writer guy says that about them it taints people's views as it shows the book was designed with the UM in mind, putting them deliberately above the rest etc etc.

I I am not sure what the issue is you guys have. Have you actually seen the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex? It doesn't feature a single morsel of fluff that is not Ultramarines aside two Special Characters (Lysander & Shrike). All fluff retelling famous wars and battles covers Ultramarines and Ultramarines only. Every single peace of artwork in their has Ultramarines. Every single picture in the old-style army-lists next to every single unit, tank, whatever you can select is shown as Ultramarines. It has no "generic" special units like Sternguard or Command Squads, but only "Ultramarine Tyranid War Veterans" and "Calgar Honour Guard". Literally every little "box" with a story features Ultramarines (by Graham McNeil). The entire painting/hobby section is "exclusively" Ultramarines except for 2 pages of "alternative colour schemes" and two double-page spreads, one for IF, one for Raven Guard. Adding it all together, 4th Edition had about 8 to 10 pages of "non-Ultramarines" stuff in a nearly 90 page book. Another 5 pages or so are generic Horus Heresy and Space Marine Organs and the trait-system. The rest, easily 80% of the 4th Edition Codex is Ultramarines and Ultramarines only.


By comparison, Ultramarines make up less than a quarter in the 144 page 5th Edition book. It features a greatly expanded selection of non-Ultramarine Characters (Kantor, Vulkan, Khan, etc..). It features more "non-Ultramarine-fluff" than all previous generic Space Marine Codexes published taken together. It removed the "Ultramarine serials" from all units selectable in the army list. Mat Ward's 5th Edition Codex is, by a long stretch, the least Ultramarine-centric Space Marine Codex ever written by GW.

If anything, that White Dwarf Interview of Mat Ward above should be seen in the context of his possible worries that the fan-base might be angered of him removing Ultramarines so far from the limelight, unprecedented in 40K history. They might have, at the time and in the context, been appeasement more than fan-spank, re-assuring fans that he still loves Ultramarines even though the 5th Edition Codex clearly gives them the short shrift (in comparison what was "normal" before 5th Edition).

Zweischneid wrote:If anything, that White Dwarf Interview of Mat Ward above should be seen in the context of his possible worries that the fan-base might be angered of him removing Ultramarines so far from the limelight, unprecedented in 40K history.

It wouldn't be unprecedented, because they actually did this in the 3rd edition Space Marine codex, when they decided to 'defluff' the codices. It actually was Codex Space Marines in that it wasn't about any one chapter, even the fluff that was in it was about all different chapters. In the 3.5 edition codex, when they realized people wanted fluff in their codices still, they recentered the Ultramarines as the fluff focus and added Tyrannic War Veterans and Honour Guard.