Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Easy E wrote:The trick to sales is that it is not about $$$ for many people it is about values and needs.

Find what the target values, and you will be able to sell them. The trick is getting them engaged to reveal their values to you.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Really? I would think the ones that "can't be sold" weren't there in the first place.

Except most slaespeople go to the "client" and don't wait for the client to come to them.

That only works if you have something that want. If I am a banker I have ZERO need for drill pipe. You can try to sell it to me, but you'd never make it in the door (literally, our lobby is locked).

Frazzled wrote: That only works if you have something that want. If I am a banker I have ZERO need for drill pipe. You can try to sell it to me, but you'd never make it in the door (literally, our lobby is locked).

Any salesman worth their salt isn't going to be hitting up people that he doesn't believe have any need for what he is selling. It is a waste of time. You wouldn't try to sell a banker a drill pipe, but you might try to sell him ledgers and other office supplies.

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote: That only works if you have something that want. If I am a banker I have ZERO need for drill pipe. You can try to sell it to me, but you'd never make it in the door (literally, our lobby is locked).

Any salesman worth their salt isn't going to be hitting up people that he doesn't believe have any need for what he is selling. It is a waste of time. You wouldn't try to sell a banker a drill pipe, but you might try to sell him ledgers and other office supplies.

So the whole argument that easiest sales are to those "who can't be sold" is complete and utter bs. We are agreed.

Frazzled wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote: That only works if you have something that want. If I am a banker I have ZERO need for drill pipe. You can try to sell it to me, but you'd never make it in the door (literally, our lobby is locked).

Any salesman worth their salt isn't going to be hitting up people that he doesn't believe have any need for what he is selling. It is a waste of time. You wouldn't try to sell a banker a drill pipe, but you might try to sell him ledgers and other office supplies.

So the whole argument that easiest sales are to those "who can't be sold" is complete and utter bs. We are agreed.

The problem is that you are refuting the argument by arguing against a different argument that wasn't made. No one made the claim that salesmen can sale anything to anyone or that a good salesman will have a 100% success rate, which is what you are presenting.

"Can't be sold" doesn't literally mean that the person can't be sold anything. Think of it it terms of the Death Star fro the original Star Wars. They were so confident that the Death Star could not be destroyed that they never considered all possible routes of attack that the rebels could take. A guy goes to buy a new car and is so confident in his negotiating skills that he fends off all the extras the salesmen throws at him but he ends up paying $500 more than the actual average the vehicle goes for.

In other words it is just another way of saying people that are overconfident in their abilities are just as easily manipulated as those who undervalue their capabilities. I don't even think it was argued that they make up the majority of sales either.

Frazzled wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote: That only works if you have something that want. If I am a banker I have ZERO need for drill pipe. You can try to sell it to me, but you'd never make it in the door (literally, our lobby is locked).

Any salesman worth their salt isn't going to be hitting up people that he doesn't believe have any need for what he is selling. It is a waste of time. You wouldn't try to sell a banker a drill pipe, but you might try to sell him ledgers and other office supplies.

So the whole argument that easiest sales are to those "who can't be sold" is complete and utter bs. We are agreed.

No, its people who think they can't be sold. They CAN and WILL be sold something they do not need in there life; despite thinking that they can never be sold. In fact, they will be sold a lot of stuff they don't need. Buying decisions are rarely based on need, but are frequnetly based on want.

How do you get a Banker to buy a drill that he doesn't need and will never use? Depends on the banker, but here are some ways.
1. Convince him that alot of respected people all ready has one- Need: Status
2. Convince him that it is a way to save money in the future- Need: Save Money
3. Create the impression that it is better to have one available, when he will need it- Need: Convenience

Those are just some ways. No one is immune to being sold. Sure, some sales are a lot harder than others, and you won't always succeed. However, given time, a good salesperson can always find your buying motivator.

And selling is just like anything else: it's about playing percentages.

A good salesman, depending on industry, might only make a sale on a tiny fraction of his pitches. But he's selling 5-10x what a mediocre salesman sells.

Yup. That's all PUA is.

Here's the percentages.

20% always say Yes if you ask for the sale.
20% always say No no matter what you are offering.
60% you can persuade if you apply your skills.

A good salesman will have a close rate between 28% and 35%. So, all of those great skills still only nets you 8-15% point bump.

However, the number 1 reason a salesman fails is because he never actually asks for the sale. Therefore, losing the for sure 20 percenters.

Think about that next time you are looking for a date.

Bromsy wrote:Well, I thought the requirement for being a 'hate group' is that one of the defining characteristics of your group is well... hating something, not your ability to act on that hate.

You thought wrong. The likelihood of that group to act on its vitriol is the major factor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Easy E wrote:No, its people who think they can't be sold. They CAN and WILL be sold something they do not need in there life; despite thinking that they can never be sold. In fact, they will be sold a lot of stuff they don't need. Buying decisions are rarely based on need, but are frequnetly based on want.

How do you get a Banker to buy a drill that he doesn't need and will never use? Depends on the banker, but here are some ways.
1. Convince him that alot of respected people all ready has one- Need: Status
2. Convince him that it is a way to save money in the future- Need: Save Money
3. Create the impression that it is better to have one available, when he will need it- Need: Convenience

4. Because the product can be made to fill a psychological need in the consumer, even if they don't actually need the product for any practical purpose.

In the 1960s advertising agencies discovered men were feeling increasingly distant from the idea of manhood given to them by their father's, because the new generation didn't work with their hands like men 'ought' to, but in offices. So they started to focus on selling handyman tools and the like to men for use on the weekend. You can see it in the ads to this day, there's always a hardy bloke, good looking but not handsome, the kind of rugged man who gets stuff done, and he's in his shed on the weekend, cutting up wood and all kinds of gak that people hardly ever bother to actually do in real life.

The result is millions of men filling up tool sheds with thousands of dollars of Black and Decker or whoever, hardly any of which gets used more than once. But they've got a toolshed, because men need tool sheds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:And selling is just like anything else: it's about playing percentages.

A good salesman, depending on industry, might only make a sale on a tiny fraction of his pitches. But he's selling 5-10x what a mediocre salesman sells.

The trick about the PUA community is that as long as you're relatively fit, and not completely disfunctional socially, then there will be girls in clubs who'll say 'feth it, why not?' to a proposal for a hookup. From there it is like you said above, just a numbers game, ask enough girls and one will say yes. Go to clubs and play that game two or more nights a week and you can end up with a long list of 'conquests' in a pretty short space of time.

The problem is that rejection sucks, and sexual rejection sucks even harder, so most people just won't go hitting on girl after girl, because the rejection sucks so bad we're likely to stop before there's any pay-off. That's where the nonsense of the PUA community pays off, because it allows the future manslut to start thinking about rejection in terms of his technique, instead of being something to take personally. Putting on a persona and attempting these ridiculous pyscholigical manipulation tricks allows him to take himself out of the equation, so it's likely he wouldn't even notice that he hit on twenty girls before one said yes.

Polonius wrote:
Early on in college I got some advice from an older fraternity brother: "Dont' sleep with a drunk girl you're not already sleeping with." Dont' do that, and most of the ways you can get realistically charged with rape go way down.

One of the older football players told me basically the same thing my freshman year.

Really, I think it should just be emblazoned above the entrances to all dormitories.

Easy E wrote:
However, the number 1 reason a salesman fails is because he never actually asks for the sale. Therefore, losing the for sure 20 percenters.

Think about that next time you are looking for a date.

Rule one of canvassing (similar to sales) and dating: grow a thick skin.

Polonius wrote:And selling is just like anything else: it's about playing percentages.

A good salesman, depending on industry, might only make a sale on a tiny fraction of his pitches. But he's selling 5-10x what a mediocre salesman sells.

Door to door canvassing produces a successful donation rate of around 5-8%. The really, really good canvassers might get 12-15% success. Street canvassing is the same, but with greater variance according to individual. Basically, the people that can compel someone to talk to them for reasons beyond the cause (basically, be attractive and charismatic) universally see better results.

After that, its all about talking up the donation. You don't necessarily need many sales, just big ones.

Ahtman wrote:
In other words it is just another way of saying people that are overconfident in their abilities are just as easily manipulated as those who undervalue their capabilities.

Generally more so.

Another analogy can be drawn to politics. People with strongly held beliefs, essentially a stand in for confidence, are the easiest to control.

sebster wrote:

Bromsy wrote:Well, I thought the requirement for being a 'hate group' is that one of the defining characteristics of your group is well... hating something, not your ability to act on that hate.

You thought wrong. The likelihood of that group to act on its vitriol is the major factor.

So basically you would be arguing that the KKK is significantly less of a hate group than it was in say the 20s? Because I might agree that it is a smaller hate group, but not less of one.

Bromsy wrote:So basically you would be arguing that the KKK is significantly less of a hate group than it was in say the 20s? Because I might agree that it is a smaller hate group, but not less of one.

I think your example answers your own point. The KKK are less of a social concern now than they were in the 20s.

sebster wrote:

Bromsy wrote:So basically you would be arguing that the KKK is significantly less of a hate group than it was in say the 20s? Because I might agree that it is a smaller hate group, but not less of one.

I think your example answers your own point. The KKK are less of a social concern now than they were in the 20s.

However, they are just as full of hate, simply less able to express it. They are still listed as a hate group are they not?

Bromsy wrote:However, they are just as full of hate, simply less able to express it. They are still listed as a hate group are they not?

They are, because while they are less likely to express their hate with violent acts, they're still large enough for their language to be reasonably likely of impacting other people.

I'm not sure why you're struggling to get this. No-one cares if you're really, really hateful, and say really mean things all the time (how would you even measure that?) People care when there's a significant chance that your hateful diatribes might lead a member or some other person into acting out against other people.

Yes, the rate of arrest for rape is something like twenty five percent, compared to seventy five for murder and fifty for assault, or thereabouts anyway.

Dunno, pick-up artists creep me out... mind you I'm not interested in a relationship at all so that might have something to do with it, but these are the douchebags who just want to get someone drunk and sleep with them. Whether they're drunk with alcohol or other drugs isn't necessarily their concern...

sebster wrote:

Bromsy wrote:However, they are just as full of hate, simply less able to express it. They are still listed as a hate group are they not?

They are, because while they are less likely to express their hate with violent acts, they're still large enough for their language to be reasonably likely of impacting other people.

I'm not sure why you're struggling to get this. No-one cares if you're really, really hateful, and say really mean things all the time (how would you even measure that?) People care when there's a significant chance that your hateful diatribes might lead a member or some other person into acting out against other people.

I'm not struggling to 'get this'. I think you are wrong. There is a difference there, boss. I posit that there are a damned lot of people out there who do care if you are hateful, as a group, even if the chances of you getting together for an old fashioned pickup dragging are negligible. Unless you are including speech in your definition of acting on your hatred, which it seems you aren't.

sebster wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Surely the women involved bear some responsibility for consensual sex?

I don't think anyone needs to bare any responsibility for consensual sex, that's between those two and no-one else.

The issue is with the PUA community having a culture that dehumanises women, and likely makes the use of date rape drugs and the like more common.

While all that is true, unless date rape drugs or some sort of forceful means are applied to initiate the sex I don't see why women should be portrayed as being "used" or victims of some sort.

What about the ones who were lied to then?

You nkow, the stereotypical example of the woman wanting a relationship and the man lying to her to get sex and then running out on her (previously something "solved" through shotgun weddings, which was how it got the term "shotgun" wedding-- the father using coercion to force the man to marry. Fairly barbaric really...).

Melissia wrote:What about the ones who were lied to then?

You nkow, the stereotypical example of the woman wanting a relationship and the man lying to her to get sex and then running out on her (previously something "solved" through shotgun weddings, which was how it got the term "shotgun" wedding-- the father using coercion to force the man to marry. Fairly barbaric really...).

Blah blah blah and frankly sexist blah blah. Thats remarkably 19th century thinking.

Melissia wrote:What about the ones who were lied to then?

You nkow, the stereotypical example of the woman wanting a relationship and the man lying to her to get sex and then running out on her (previously something "solved" through shotgun weddings, which was how it got the term "shotgun" wedding-- the father using coercion to force the man to marry. Fairly barbaric really...).

Believe it or not, lying has yet to be made illegal.

Ketara wrote:Believe it or not, lying has yet to be made illegal.

Believe it or not, if you read my post you'd have noticed that I never claimed it was.

Although lying IS illegal in specific situations, but let's not get too deeply in to pedantry.

I was more asking about the immorality of it than anything else.

Melissia wrote:What about the ones who were lied to then?

You nkow, the stereotypical example of the woman wanting a relationship and the man lying to her to get sex and then running out on her (previously something "solved" through shotgun weddings, which was how it got the term "shotgun" wedding-- the father using coercion to force the man to marry. Fairly barbaric really...).

A decision, or choice, was still made.

I'd like to clarify that the pick up artists' scene is repellent, but that barring some sort of physical or chemical coercion the women who engage in sex with these people aren't helpless victims.

Melissia wrote:I was more asking about the immorality of it than anything else.

If we're getting into the traditional morality aspect of the whole thing, shouldn't she be waiting until marriage in the first place?

Ketara wrote:

Melissia wrote:What about the ones who were lied to then?

You nkow, the stereotypical example of the woman wanting a relationship and the man lying to her to get sex and then running out on her (previously something "solved" through shotgun weddings, which was how it got the term "shotgun" wedding-- the father using coercion to force the man to marry. Fairly barbaric really...).

Believe it or not, lying has yet to be made illegal.

Er...except for fraud, libel, slander, and a few other things.

Melissia wrote:

Ketara wrote:Believe it or not, lying has yet to be made illegal.

Believe it or not, if you read my post you'd have noticed that I never claimed it was.

Although lying IS illegal in specific situations, but let's not get too deeply in to pedantry.

I was more asking about the immorality of it than anything else.

I don't think it can be practically legislated.

Life is replete with examples of people trying to get advantages from other people by "social engineering", con skills, fast talk and so on.

People build various defences such as streetwise and Detect Lie skills. Everyone doesn't get to the same level. Age helps, as does a touch of paranoia.

Kilkrazy wrote:People build various defences such as streetwise and Detect Lie skills. Everyone doesn't get to the same level. Age helps, as does a touch of paranoia.

I have a +5 age bonus on Sense Motive checks.

Monster Rain wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:People build various defences such as streetwise and Detect Lie skills. Everyone doesn't get to the same level. Age helps, as does a touch of paranoia.

I have a +5 age bonus on Sense Motive checks.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

Bromsy wrote:I'm not struggling to 'get this'. I think you are wrong. There is a difference there, boss. I posit that there are a damned lot of people out there who do care if you are hateful, as a group, even if the chances of you getting together for an old fashioned pickup dragging are negligible. Unless you are including speech in your definition of acting on your hatred, which it seems you aren't.

But it really, really doesn't matter if someone has enough hatred in them to black the sun. People are allowed to be hatefilled, nasty people.

It only becomes an issue when that hatred takes on a form that is likely to threaten the rights of other people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:While all that is true, unless date rape drugs or some sort of forceful means are applied to initiate the sex I don't see why women should be portrayed as being "used" or victims of some sort.

I agree. They chose to go to bed with the guy. While he might is a complete douche for using PUA tricks, she still made the choice.

My issue is with the baggage that goes with the PUA community. All the misgyny that surrounds their reasons means that things much worse than silly hats and emotional manipulation become inevitable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ketara wrote:Believe it or not, lying has yet to be made illegal.

Palestinian dude lied to an Israeli chick, claimed he was an Israeli to sleep with her. It worked.

She found out, got rightly pissed... and the guy was subsequently convicted of rape. Seriously.

sebster wrote:My issue is with the baggage that goes with the PUA community. All the misgyny that surrounds their reasons means that things much worse than silly hats and emotional manipulation become inevitable.

They're repugnant human beings, so there's no argument here.

Monster Rain wrote:

sebster wrote:My issue is with the baggage that goes with the PUA community. All the misgyny that surrounds their reasons means that things much worse than silly hats and emotional manipulation become inevitable.

They're repugnant human beings, so there's no argument here.

Silly hats are much worse than silly suits.

No one who reads comic books would trust a man in a suit covered in question marks.

Well if it was green, you could trust him-- so long as you were smart enough to handle the riddles.