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Grey Templar wrote:

Joey wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:There is no such thing as a cheesy list.

If there is a list I have extreme difficulties with, that is because of my tactical short comings. I then try and figure out how to defeat it with my options avaliable.

So literally all armies in the game, with all the possible combinations that make up an army list, are all exactly balanced?
Some armies are more powerful than others, some to a greater degree than others.
"Cheese" is considered a list that your army is at a great disadvantage against by default.
No one ever said they were "unbeatable" since in a game of dice that's impossible.
I know it's cool on the internet to define any complaint against a fellow player as a lack of skill on their part (implying an excess of skill on your part, as well as, I'm sure, a generously proportioned penis) but it's obvious that some lists/armies are much more powerful than others.

Are there imbalances? Yes,

However, the vast bulk of this game relies on player skill. Some armies just take more skill then others.

Actually the vast bulk of the game is luck, then list, then skill.

GimbleMuggernaught wrote:A cheesy list is typically viewed as one that exploits the rules to their advantage in some way, so what is considered "cheesy" vastly depends on your point of view.

Can you give some examples of that kind of "exploitation"? Two or three would be more than sufficient.

Steelmage99 wrote:

GimbleMuggernaught wrote:A cheesy list is typically viewed as one that exploits the rules to their advantage in some way, so what is considered "cheesy" vastly depends on your point of view.

Can you give some examples of that kind of "exploitation"? Two or three would be more than sufficient.

Those examples can be found throughout this thread quite easily.

Skriker

And a summary would be nice. It would also make it a lot easier to address.

Steelmage99 wrote:

GimbleMuggernaught wrote:A cheesy list is typically viewed as one that exploits the rules to their advantage in some way, so what is considered "cheesy" vastly depends on your point of view.

Can you give some examples of that kind of "exploitation"? Two or three would be more than sufficient.

One of the major ones often addressed is Gray Knights Warp Quake Spam vs Daemons.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

GimbleMuggernaught wrote:A cheesy list is typically viewed as one that exploits the rules to their advantage in some way, so what is considered "cheesy" vastly depends on your point of view.

Can you give some examples of that kind of "exploitation"? Two or three would be more than sufficient.

One of the major ones often addressed is Gray Knights Warp Quake Spam vs any Deepstriking army.

Fixed that for you!

While Daemons get auto-boned the hardest because they have 0 choice in the matter, keep in mind that the Warp Quake gak-fest also utterly cripples other armies like drop pod marines & spore pod 'nids, Deathwing Assaults, Blood Angels DoA's builds, the rather rare CSM 'daemonbombs' and all other similar lists.

Plus, a single 10 man squad that's spaced out the full 2" coherency can cover a frightening amount of table space with the combined quake-zone + 'scatter danger zone'. It only take 30 models to lock-off the table save for about a tiny little 6"-8" square area... Good luck getting more than a unit or two into play!
And to make matters worse, against a real hat rules lawyer type, they'll simply abuse RAW to 'juggle' any "misplaced" misshaps to ensure a 50/50 insta-kill result!

BTW Steelmage99: That little trick is most definately a prime example of abusing RAW vs RAI! Playing the rules that way is simply being a dirty-dirty hobo AND proving you're a TFG!
Man-up an play me a real game, not some stupid abusive dirty trick!

Steelmage99 wrote:And a summary would be nice. It would also make it a lot easier to address.

I'm sorry, but who do you think you are demanding definitions and summaries? How about you read the thread and contribute something or stay out of it?

I typically play tough lists that I put a lot of thought into. I don't think there's a problem with bringing tough lists to a friendly game, and most of us see lists on te net and take inspiration from them, but when I see lists on the table that are blatantly netlists (longfang/msu GH razorback spam), it bugs me. I'll still gladly play against those people, but I do secretly look down on them for their lack of creativity.

Steelmage99 wrote:

GimbleMuggernaught wrote:A cheesy list is typically viewed as one that exploits the rules to their advantage in some way, so what is considered "cheesy" vastly depends on your point of view.

Can you give some examples of that kind of "exploitation"? Two or three would be more than sufficient.

Bringing a demolisher or variant tank in a 500 point army. Totally legal but most armies can't handle the AV14 with only 500 points to work with.

Imperium = mega cheese

Nachos.

Make jokes about how I may "hate" something and hope I don't ever face it in the near or far future. (I'm looking at you Vulkan and Manitcores!)

I haven't been in any "cheese-tacular" situations as of this year.


I also haven't been face to face with the new Grey Knights that people have been yelling about

I have a friend who plays GK and i play him straight up no matter how cheesy his list is (mordrak plus a libby plus 30 termies) last game he wiped my deathwing (well there was 1 guy left) and he had 6 i think. basically cheese is using the rules to amke a hard ot beat list. So i respond by beating it in annoying ways.

I will say this for my friend though in our game he said and i quote "mike is re-evaluating our friendship right now." I did when i ran over mordrak with a landraider. HAHAHAHAHAHA die GK SCUM.

Nate668 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:And a summary would be nice. It would also make it a lot easier to address.

I'm sorry, but who do you think you are demanding definitions and summaries? How about you read the thread and contribute something or stay out of it?

I am simply a guy trying to help achieve a constructive level of communication.

Please, notice that I am not demanding anything. I am merely asking the various posters to put their feelings into words.


I have naturally read the thread, and I see a lot of unsubstantiated claims being thrown around.
If we can't agree on what we are really talking about, we can't really talk.

I am merely asking that people attempt to stand back, leave their personal feelings of unfairness behind and attempt to objectively look at the concept of "cheese".



On a personal note, I can't help noticing that your own contribution to this thread, before this post, has been;

Nate668 wrote:

That's right. Nothing.
Perhaps you are not the right person to lecture about contribution to this thread after all.....