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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka





Southampton

loki old fart wrote:
Joey wrote:Ban the Argentinian team from attending.


Do they win much, at the Olympics ?


In Beijing they won 2 gold and 1 bronze (35th in table) and in Athens they won 2 gold and 4 bronze (38th in table) so in relative terms, no not really. The Falklands grudge match will be the Women's Hockey where Britain and Argentina are quite evenly matched.

   
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Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





staffordshire england

Flashman wrote:
loki old fart wrote:
Joey wrote:Ban the Argentinian team from attending.


Do they win much, at the Olympics ?


In Beijing they won 2 gold and 1 bronze (35th in table) and in Athens they won 2 gold and 4 bronze (38th in table) so in relative terms, no not really. The Falklands grudge match will be the Women's Hockey where Britain and Argentina are quite evenly matched.


Well we better win then



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Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Henners91 wrote:
I'm not aware of the *English* explorers making any formal claim.


You are now. The first English/UK claim dates from 1690. The expedition of Captain John Strong was the first recorded landing on the islands, there were previous sighting, but not landings. The islands were claimed at the time. The second recorded landing occured in 1701.

Henners91 wrote:
The Spanish possessed the old French settlement (it had Louis in the name...), which they renamed Puerto Soledad. It was administered from Buenos Aires.


That settlement was also abandoned in 1811,


Henners91 wrote:
Well, my point above once again shows that the Argentines had a basis for claiming they were a successor state. The complicating issue is that Spain contested this and continued to claim the islands.


Argentina cannot inherit what isn't belonging to those they claim inheritance from. The UK has the earliest claim, the only possible counter claimants are the French who abandoned their claim.


Henners91 wrote:
Vernet sought permission of the United Provinces of the River Plate (ta for the name, forgot it) when he set up this colony, as he was doing it under their sovereignty. I've read that he would have preferred British protection, mind, but I didn't explore that issue.


He also sought permission from the British Consulate in Buenos Aires. This was granted for the purposes that Vernet originally described, seal hunting.
This can be easily identified as petitioning the United Provinces to establish a colony under their administration while concurrently obtaining permission from the lands owners.


Henners91 wrote:
Again, the English didn't claim the islands. The French were the first to settle them. The issue of discovery itself is highly contested, but with no competing claims it's irrelevant.


Actually the English did, in 1690. It doesnt support your opinion that but those happens to be the facts.



Henners91 wrote:
I am merely making the point that our legal claim is weaker; whereas our moral position I find to be the overriding cause.


The moral position of self-determination is inalienable and overwhelming.

The legal claim is also strong.

1. English sailors may have been the first to sight the islands in 1592, though this was not documented. The first recorded sighting was in 1600 by a Portuguese ship which did not stop and make a claim.
2. The UK via England were the first to set foot on the islands and named and claimed them in the process.
3. The UK founded an early settlement concurrently with a French/Spanish settlement. Neither was initially aware of the other and the settlements were on different islands enabling two valid claims. For early settlement. The Brtish settlement was destroyed by the Spanish but restored under treaty. Thus at a very minimum legitimising the Uk's joint claim with Spain (purchased from France).
4. The Spanish did however abandon their colony in 1811 and did not formally transfer their claim to any other party, thus voiding any half-claim remaining. Spain abandoned its settlement prior to the existence of Argentina. You dojnt inherit what someone relinquishes before they pass on.
5. The current and ongoing settlement was founded with British permission, and thus allowed to proceed, but without any form of permission from the UK for the colony to become United Provinces territory.
When the current and ongoing settlement was militarised by the Untied Provinces (Argentina) the claim was formally nullified by the territories lawful owners, yet the legitimate settlement was allowed to continue.
6. The United Provinces did not pay for the inhabitants of the settlement, The British government honoured their wages (thus shouldering financial liability for them) and the settlers (with exception of two persons) accepted those conditions.
7. Sovereignty issues were not raised in any form between 1849 and 1941 by which time several generations of islanders lived on the islands,


Henners91 wrote:
You're removing my point from its historical setting; how much of this stuff you've mentioned has come about since 1982?


None. But this is because they cannot occur because the islands were liberated.

Henners91 wrote:
With regards to oil wealth, do you really think the Falklands are going to benefit from it in its entirety? I highly doubt it will be privatised in the hands of the islanders themselves; they'll just benefit from the economic activity.


Not in its entirity, like with the fishing rights they will sell rights for others to exploit the resources. Those monies raised belong to the Falklands.


Henners91 wrote:
I would attribute the same to your highly partisan and rose-tinted view of things... ultimately resting on wilful ignorance of Spanish settlement.


The Spanish settlement was purchased from a third party the French, and thus gave the UK the longest concurrent claim. The UK settlement was restored under treaty after it was destroyed by the Spanish, the Spanish settlement was never restored by Spain. Vernet's settlement was not a restoration of the French/Spanish settlement.
Thus the Spanish settlment is irrelevant to current claims as it refers to a dead claim. Spain has no current claim, let alone one that can be 'inherited by Argentina.

'Highly partisan'. 1690 came from 1764 last time I checked. The UK has first claim in international law, now and of the time, QED.

Henners91 wrote:
Nevertheless, in theory, we are on the same side... it just seems to me that my decision to approach the issue with an open mind and actually analyse the Argentine argument makes me a monster in the eyes of my fellow countrymen, eh? I'd suggest reading, but I have just checked and Wikipedia does have all the info on Puerto Soledad that is required so what is (at least my) the internet's primary source of debating material isn't deficient in this area


1690, let your 'open mind' absorb the relavant facts.



Henners91 wrote:
I might be getting this wrong as I am strictly straining my recollections, but I also believe that the UN later decided it was infeasible for the Falklands to gain independence; that's when they directed the UK and Argentina to enter negotiations on sovereignty as the 'next best thing' so to speak.


The islands are on the de-colonisation list as they are run by a governor rather than an integral leader. This can be solved by offering the islanders full membership of the UK and allowing them to elect a an island council as local government and MP's for parliament. Its essentially the same as Argentina absorbing them, but with greater public approval from the inhabitants. Argentina will of course howl if the Falklands becomes part of the UK, but it would solve the problem.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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Brisbane, Australia

loki old fart wrote:
Joey wrote:Ban the Argentinian team from attending.


Do they win much, at the Olympics ?


That would depend. If polo is an Olympic sport I'd suggest they must do rather well.

sebster wrote:
Orlanth wrote:Its a known fact that Aussies are genetically disposed towards crime, we intentionally set them up that way.

But only awesome crimes like bushranging and, if I understand the song correctly, sheep stealing and suicide.
 
   
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I feel roundly beaten.

   
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Orlanth never seems to do anything by half measures...

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(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

ArbeitsSchu wrote:If the Falklands became their own state, they would have to be 'protected' by another state anyway, or the Argentines would promptly invade.

Isn't it a bit cheeky for the Argentines to complain that the UK are being 'colonial', then lay claim to the islands through dubious colonial succession?


It's possible that they'd invade, though at that point it would be a territorial invasion of a freshly created small state by a beligerant and unpopular neighbor in the united states coastal back yard. They wouldn't have the island for very long and it's unlikely that they'd maintain the same military capability they did after their last war.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/06 17:17:23


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

ShumaGorath wrote:
ArbeitsSchu wrote:If the Falklands became their own state, they would have to be 'protected' by another state anyway, or the Argentines would promptly invade.

Isn't it a bit cheeky for the Argentines to complain that the UK are being 'colonial', then lay claim to the islands through dubious colonial succession?


It's possible that they'd invade, though at that point it would be a territorial invasion of a freshly created small state by a beligerant and unpopular neighbor in the united states coastal back yard. They wouldn't have the island for very long and it's unlikely that they'd maintain the same military capability they did after their last war.
Well, considering that the US and UK could, independently of eachother, probably crush their navy like an empty beer can, invasion is unlikely given an even remotely rational Argentina.

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UK

Melissia wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
ArbeitsSchu wrote:If the Falklands became their own state, they would have to be 'protected' by another state anyway, or the Argentines would promptly invade.

Isn't it a bit cheeky for the Argentines to complain that the UK are being 'colonial', then lay claim to the islands through dubious colonial succession?


It's possible that they'd invade, though at that point it would be a territorial invasion of a freshly created small state by a beligerant and unpopular neighbor in the united states coastal back yard. They wouldn't have the island for very long and it's unlikely that they'd maintain the same military capability they did after their last war.
Well, considering that the US and UK could, independently of eachother, probably crush their navy like an empty beer can, invasion is unlikely given an even remotely rational Argentina.


Yeah I cant see them invading again, but you never know, their commandos were photographed training in the area by British intelligence.

Spoiler:

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North West UK

Update on this; apparently the athlete in question has been dropped, and is not taking part in the "final warm-up event" for the Olympics...

So it's unlikely he'll be coming to the UK to compete.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/falklandislands/9253986/Hockey-player-in-controversial-Falklands-advert-to-miss-London-Olympics.html


Fernando Zylberberg starred in the government video which was first aired last week and has been widely condemned as the last attempt by Cristina Kirchner’s government to attack Britain over the disputed territory.
Set to stirring patriotic music and featuring scenes of Zylberberg running and training around famous Falklands landmarks, the video ends with the slogan: “To compete on English soil, we are training on Argentine soil.”
Zylberberg, 34, who has captained the national hockey side in the past and appeared at two Olympic Games has been left out of the 18-man squad to play in the Sultan Azlan Shah Cup in Malaysia.
It means the player will avoid a potentially fiery meeting against the Great Britain team, which is also competing in Malaysia.
The event is the team’s final warm-up event before the Olympics and means that Zylberberg will be unlikely to make the squad for London.

His absence from the squad has been attributed to “sporting reasons” by the coach, Pablo Rossi, who claimed Zylberberg “had not been able to complete all the necessary steps in pre-season”.
However, the video, lauded by Mrs Kirchner, has been met with international condemnation.
Fernando Zylberberg trains on the island's Great War Memorial, which honours British sailors who died in World War I (AFP/Getty Images)
The Argentina Olympic Committee (COA) has distanced itself from the campaign, issuing a statement on Tuesday that “using the Olympic Games to make political gestures of any kind is not acceptable”.
There is speculation that Zylberberg has been dropped to avoid adverse attention on the team and a potential media frenzy when players land in London in July.
He was not amongst the Argentine players to attend a reception at the British Embassy in Buenos Aires on Tuesday night.
He has also been the subject of online threats, with one commenter writing on a Facebook page: “I’m tempted to find out when the Argentine hockey team is due to arrive in the UK so I can throw eggs at Zylberberg.”
Zylberberg filmed the advert in secret after flying to the Falklands under the pretext he was running a marathon.
As dawn breaks over the South Atlantic, he sets off on a training run through the streets.

In scenes reminiscent of the film Rocky, Zylberberg carries out a set of dips on benches outside the Globe Tavern, then runs past a British red telephone box.
He then carries out step-ups on the islands’ Great War Memorial honouring British sailors who died battling the German fleet in 1914.
Zylberberg has said the advert was supposed to convey his country’s feeling over the islands.
“The message is that to every Argentine the islands belong to Argentina. To me to be training in any other province or to do it over the islands is the same,” he said.
The clip was shown on May 2 – the 30th anniversary of the sinking of the General Belgrano, which killed 323 troops, nearly half of Argentina’s total 649 losses during the Falklands conflict.
On Tuesday, Mrs Kirchner, who has stepped up anti-British rhetoric in recent months defended the video, claiming that “creativity should be recognised and applauded”.
William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, said Argentina’s attempt to misuse the London Olympics for political purposes was a “rather sad stunt”.
Sir Martin Sorrell, chief executive of advertising giant WPP which owns Young and Rubicam, the agency behind the stunt, said he was “appalled and embarrassed by it”.
A source at the Casa Rosada, the presidential palace in Buenos Aires, told the Daily Telegraph: "Under no circumstances will we be pulling the advert. We are pleased with the impact it has had

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 Ouze wrote:

Well, you don't stuff facts into the Right Wing Outrage Machine©. My friend, you load it with derp and sensationalism, and then crank that wheel.
 
   
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Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

Hopefully the guy was not picked because he was not good enough for the team, rather than because he appeared in an ill-advised advert.

I also like the line "We are pleased with the impact it has had" - ie to get people talking about the non-issue of the FI "belonging" to Argentina.

   
 
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