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Ricter wrote:

jy2 wrote:Like I said, this is more of an issue of personal preference. Some people will like it. Some just won't. It just gets kind of frustrating when you fail a charge, especially if it's a charge that should have been automatic under the older rules (less in 6" and not in difficult terrain). It's true that my wraiths would have been out of range to assault under the older rules, but knowing that, I could have done something like stick them in terrain or possibly even try to make it into the pool in preparation of the gargoyles charging. Yeah, being able to charge 2D6" is pretty cool. Failing that charge roll isn't.

But you had a choice. You still could have stuck them in terrain, or tried to make it into the pool. The 2d6" charge range added another tactical option. Risky? Sure is. But I think something that gives more options is positive, at least in some ways.

Yeah, I know, but it still sucks to fail a charge. It sucks less when that charge is 7-12" away but anything 6" or less and it's like going to get a root canal...but without the novacaine! Fail it more than once in the same game and you just want to take your gun out and shoot someone!

It's just a phase, and it'll probably pass after many more games with 6th, after I get 5E out of my system.

Red Corsair wrote:I think it's still early yet, under the old rules you wouldn't have known you were over 18" for sure and may have attempted the charge anyways, thus still failing. So from where I am viewing it, it was all a cost benefit ratio and you took the gamble rather then going for the sure bet in the terrain strategy you were weighing. This is what I feel justifies an argument that the random charges still take player skill. Only now it takes more form in risk management and judgement.

I have to say I agree with janthkin at this point because as he said, you can mitigate the cost and risk in your list building. Now assault marines aren't such a stupid choice gaining HoW and re-rolling that charge. Same with bikes, give it time and I am sure each book will have a consistent assault build, just don't expect it to look the same as it did in 5th

I want to note I am not trying to convince others or say their your opinion(s) is(are) wrong, heck maybe in a month I will see it from your stance but for now I think it needs a fair chance and some more time is the only remedy to that.

I know Reece has said they have played a dozen games or so, but heck, the rules are still new and even if you doubled that number it doesn't mean you are grasping the rules fully or making 6th edition decisions. I would argue that champions of 5th will have the hardest time making the shift. I can speak from my own experience that the rules may be understood easy having 15+ years under my belt but the strategy is the hardest to develop and breaking old habits and tricks takes time.

Kevin's used to it. I believe he plays Fantasy as well. For those not used to the new charge rules, it's going to take a little time for them to get the 5E out of their systems.

DexKivuli wrote:

Chaospling wrote:What was it that made the Genestealer's consolidate move in turn 3 negate the Overlord's ever living rule?

Ever living characters leave a token where they die. If they succeed in their roll, they can get up anywhere within 3" of the token, that ISN'T within 1" of an enemy model.

By consolidating in a spread out formation, the nids made it impossible to place the Overlord within 3" of the token without it being too close to an enemy.

Net result: Overlord has to be removed.


"If the returning model cannot be placed, for whatever reason, it is lost and does not return"
Necron codex p29

Thanks for chiming in while I was away.

So RP isn't so broken if you know how to counter it. The problem with 5th is that too many people brought MSU 5-man units so that even if they had beaten the lord, they couldn't stop him from getting back up because they didn't have enough bodies to consolidate all over.

Deathshead420 wrote:Good batrep. Thanks.

You're welcome.

Spellbound wrote:I agree on the random charge distance, and while people say it's the same as in fantasy, I'd like to point out that fantays has very VERY little shooting, comparatively, fewer objective-based missions, and they add their movement value to their charge range.

In 40k if you fail your charge, you are now in very real danger of just being gunned down in the following turn, rather than just charged yourself. And since many a game has ended by charging the enemy to get the extra distance to contest an objective, that changes everything. Also, having SOMETHING to add to the 2d6 would be nice, just to avoid the failed charge from 3" away.

Plus, it's happened twice now, an overwatch with a meltagun that blows up a walker. I really see a lot of walkers disappearing, unless a lot of melta disappears as well.

You mentioned that other fliers disembark if they move 18", but I believe this is false. As far as I know zooming fliers can't disembark troops at all, and hover-mode fliers act like any other skimmer, wherein they can only disembark if they move 6" or less.

Of course the only other flying transports I know of are the valkyrie/vendetta and stormraven, both of which have special rules that allow a deepstrike out of them - which has been FAQ'ed to say that anytime you're moving more than 6", any disembark will be via the grav-chute or skies of blood rules.

Right. The 2 main drawbacks of this system:

1) May fail to reach objective when before, at 6", it would be guaranteed.

2) Will be stuck out there for the entire enemy's army to gun down.

That meltagun overwatch incident is quite brutal, though he only has a 1 in 6 chance (or 1 in 3 if the unit's packing 2 meltas) hits. Still sucks, though I can see Overwatch as a balancing tool for the extra charge distance.

As for disembarking from flyers, Necrons have been FAQ'd that they can disembark from the night scythe even if it had moved 36"!!! The only thing is if it goes over 24", then the disembarking unit can only fire in Snapshot mode.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anvildude wrote:However, here's some things you can do with that that you couldn't before.

Say you have a squad of CC Scouts 11" away, and a squad of TH/SS Termies 5" away from, say, a Shootaboy mob. You could have the Scouts 'charge' first, and soak up the Overwatch fire, possibly failing (probably, actually) so the Termies can go in unmolested. Or do the same with Assault Marines, or whatever. Use the 'disadvantage' to your advantage.

Yeah, that is a good tip, though I don't know if I would sacrifice a scoring unit to do so.

The long and short of any game that changes editions... you need to roll with the changes and figure out how things can work to your advantage.

I'll add to anvildude's example. My Wraith unit is made up of 3 with Whipcoils and 2 without. Guess who's in front when I charge?

Or what about charges with Scarabs and Spyders? Even a small unit of Scarabs getting the first charge on a squad of terminators won't do much, but the three Spyders safely following up will really ruin his day!

Spellbound wrote:I agree on the random charge distance, and while people say it's the same as in fantasy, I'd like to point out that fantays . . . add[s] their movement value to their charge range.

You do that in 40k, too - it's called the Movement Phase. The random charges in 40k are far more versatile than in Fantasy - a) you can move in one direction, then change your mind later and assault in a different direction, e.g., if your Shooting Phase causes you to reconsider a particular charge; b) you can use your Movement phase to circumvent terrain that you'd have to charge through in Fantasy; c) you can shoot before charging, especially if you're shooting at a Transport; and d) you can still multicharge all over the place.

I think the scout and terminator is a bad example for comforting those that come from 5th, though decent for advice for those learning 6th.

See as a 5th player, I'm used to both units making it without getting shot, so saying "well only one gets shot!" isn't much consolation. Not to mention if the scouts flub their assault move, the shootas could shoot again at the terminators. And if both fail their charges I gave them two rounds of shooting with one unit and now it's their turn to shoot and charge!

That's what we call a real reversal of the game, and it can happen at almost any time.

Spellbound wrote:I think the scout and terminator is a bad example for comforting those that come from 5th, though decent for advice for those learning 6th.

See as a 5th player, I'm used to both units making it without getting shot, so saying "well only one gets shot!" isn't much consolation. Not to mention if the scouts flub their assault move, the shootas could shoot again at the terminators. And if both fail their charges I gave them two rounds of shooting with one unit and now it's their turn to shoot and charge!

That's what we call a real reversal of the game, and it can happen at almost any time.

Incorrect, a unit is only ever allowed one overwatch a turn so when you declare the assault with the first unit they have a decision to make shoot then or hope they fail and wait for the next unit. It is just a meta shift and there are many solutions to all the problems people claim to be having.

I hear alot of grief regarding DE and wyches. My strategy with DE wyches has been to break off the attached Haemonculus (who is a must) in the movement phase leaving his pain token and charging him in first fallowed by the wych unit. They can overwatch him, or risk him making it into assault, either way they won't shoot my wyches and instead are shooting at an expendable T4 character who usually survives but was purchased for his token anyway. I like overwatch as it prevents units from using the stagger of turns to hide in assault and continue mincing other armies unrealistically. Why would they sit there and let them charge in from unit to unit with no reaction?

Anywho that is just my 2 cents and you know what they say about opinions...

Red Corsair wrote:

Spellbound wrote:I think the scout and terminator is a bad example for comforting those that come from 5th, though decent for advice for those learning 6th.

See as a 5th player, I'm used to both units making it without getting shot, so saying "well only one gets shot!" isn't much consolation. Not to mention if the scouts flub their assault move, the shootas could shoot again at the terminators. And if both fail their charges I gave them two rounds of shooting with one unit and now it's their turn to shoot and charge!

That's what we call a real reversal of the game, and it can happen at almost any time.

Incorrect, a unit is only ever allowed one overwatch a turn so when you declare the assault with the first unit they have a decision to make shoot then or hope they fail and wait for the next unit. It is just a meta shift and there are many solutions to all the problems people claim to be having.

I hear alot of grief regarding DE and wyches. My strategy with DE wyches has been to break off the attached Haemonculus (who is a must) in the movement phase leaving his pain token and charging him in first fallowed by the wych unit. They can overwatch him, or risk him making it into assault, either way they won't shoot my wyches and instead are shooting at an expendable T4 character who usually survives but was purchased for his token anyway. I like overwatch as it prevents units from using the stagger of turns to hide in assault and continue mincing other armies unrealistically. Why would they sit there and let them charge in from unit to unit with no reaction?

Anywho that is just my 2 cents and you know what they say about opinions...

I'm definitely NOT telling the DE player at my FLGS...

Ha ha ha, you meany

Out of town and don't have my rulebook handy, I thought with overwatch you got to choose which assaulting unit you shoot at?

Red Corsair wrote:
I hear alot of grief regarding DE and wyches. My strategy with DE wyches has been to break off the attached Haemonculus (who is a must) in the movement phase leaving his pain token and charging him in first fallowed by the wych unit. They can overwatch him, or risk him making it into assault, either way they won't shoot my wyches and instead are shooting at an expendable T4 character who usually survives but was purchased for his token anyway. I like overwatch as it prevents units from using the stagger of turns to hide in assault and continue mincing other armies unrealistically. Why would they sit there and let them charge in from unit to unit with no reaction?

Anywho that is just my 2 cents and you know what they say about opinions...

That's a good tip.

Too bad I don't really get to use this strategy too often as my characters are usually independent and off on their own (Overlords, Crowe, Swarmlord or tyrant, Greater Daemons).

Traceoftoxin wrote:Out of town and don't have my rulebook handy, I thought with overwatch you got to choose which assaulting unit you shoot at?

However, your opponent gets to choose which unit he wants to move (charge) first. So he charges his haemoculi. Don't want to Overwatch him? Fine, he makes it into assault (assuming his random charge roll is successful) and now your unit is locked in combat and can't shoot. He then charges in his wyches. Thus, if you don't do overwatch on the first unit that charges you, you won't get the chance to do it on subsequent charges unless the first charge is unsuccessful.

6th ed brought in a lot more strategy than before. Now we have to think placement of models closest to enemy units, which unit to shoot for overwatch charge, factoring in random assault range.

Of course the only other flying transports I know of are the valkyrie/vendetta and stormraven, both of which have special rules that allow a deepstrike out of them - which has been FAQ'ed to say that anytime you're moving more than 6", any disembark will be via the grav-chute or skies of blood rules.

Just a random aside but the GK storm raven doesn't have the same disembark rules as the blood angel one. Technically even the valkyries on the IG FAQ doesn't say it correctly as it still restricts disembarking if you go flatout by RAW since it specifies that:

"If a Valkyrie or Vendetta moved flat out the passengers may still disembark" (1st page, 2nd bullet)

Page 79 restricts you from disembarking normally if you go 6' or more. Flatout is now done in the shooting phase as a seperate move that prevents shooting even with power of the machine spirit.

So far only the BA and necron FAQ's fix this problem With available rules and without resorting to RAI of BA codex, IG and GK can't technically get out unless their flyer goes to hover mode or flat outs which is just wierd.

SabrX wrote:6th ed brought in a lot more strategy than before. Now we have to think placement of models closest to enemy units, which unit to shoot for overwatch charge, factoring in random assault range.

Yeah, then there's challenges, allies and flying units as well.

But mainly, it's the small changes between the 2 editions that we have to get used to. Things like heavy weapon units can now move and fire, how you shoot is determined on a model-to-model basis as opposed the the entire unit and the fact that you can't assault after disembarking and you can't even disembark after moving at cruising. Those are the things that end up biting you.

sudojoe wrote:

Of course the only other flying transports I know of are the valkyrie/vendetta and stormraven, both of which have special rules that allow a deepstrike out of them - which has been FAQ'ed to say that anytime you're moving more than 6", any disembark will be via the grav-chute or skies of blood rules.

Just a random aside but the GK storm raven doesn't have the same disembark rules as the blood angel one. Technically even the valkyries on the IG FAQ doesn't say it correctly as it still restricts disembarking if you go flatout by RAW since it specifies that:

"If a Valkyrie or Vendetta moved flat out the passengers may still disembark" (1st page, 2nd bullet)

Page 79 restricts you from disembarking normally if you go 6' or more. Flatout is now done in the shooting phase as a seperate move that prevents shooting even with power of the machine spirit.

So far only the BA and necron FAQ's fix this problem With available rules and without resorting to RAI of BA codex, IG and GK can't technically get out unless their flyer goes to hover mode or flat outs which is just wierd.

Good to know. Another miniscule change that you have to remember....that flat-out is now done in the Shooting phase as opposed to the Movement, thus making some of the rules obsolete without a FAQ.

We're going to find a lot of these "technicalities". Hopefully, Ver.2 of the FAQ's will iron some of these out when they come out.