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Wrakkar wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:Probably not. If the Emperor became a warp entity on the level of the Chaos Gods some sort of major psychic shockwave would have occurred, like the birth of Slaanesh, but less destructive. Also, if a fifth Chaos God-type entity came into being, the warp would fall out of balance and warp disturbances would become far more common.

You have no way to prove that.

I'm just going by what happened when Slaanesh was born. Before Slaanesh, the Warp was unbalanced, as there were an odd number of Chaos powers, and when Slaanesh was born, the psychic backlash killed most of the Eldar-not that Mankind would necessarily nearly go extinct, but something major would happen, as the Emperor, if he became a warp entity, would be way more powerful than any other Chaos God. I see little difference between what happened when Slaanesh was born and what would happen if the Emperor became a warp god.

the fact that they are 2 separate entities makes no sense when one needs to die for the other to live.

Now saying that The Emp is stuck midway through Ascension is more likely what is happening. Once the throne fails, a new God will emerge and with it shed light into the darkness.

I feel like I'm reading the Imperial Truth thread all over again.

Tadashi, I'm trying to respect your theories (because while I don't agree with them with regards to being possible in the setting, it shows an interesting imagination and some cool ideas)

But there is a HUGE thing holding you back. And it's preventing you from swaying people to your side:

You never give any possible 'kind of maybe' support for your theories. Even when asked for some. Repeatedly. You state your theory very definitively, and where most speculators would back up their theories with evidence (citations, bits of fluff, things like that) that could lend some credence to the theory, you just toss it out there and ask us to read between the lines and believe you.

If you don't even aim us in a direction (like, I dunno, the book that gave you the idea?), the people criticizing your ideas have no reason to agree with you (especially if your theories has a fluff of fluff going against it that is actively being cited)

Maybe if you do that, you'll do better in these exchanges?

I proposed the hypothesis of the split Emperor a while back.

The idea came about as a way to explain the ways that Sanguinor, Draigo, and other imperial apparitions function in such a similar fashion to Daemons, as a "Warp-Emperor's" chosen. (I obviously can't use their function as support here, because thats a pretty house of cards, but not argumentatively sound)

I mostly relied on the Ork belief in Gork and Mork as the basis for the creation of a Warp-Emperor through a collective desire by Humanity.

I would like to further this hypothesis by suggesting the Emperor was created out of the Human Survival Instinct Few base emotions/beliefs/what evercreates chaos gods would be as "strong" as an Imperium filled with little boys and girls all doing whatever they need to do to survive.

All a hypothesis of course, but an interesting one that might merit discussion.

This sounds like the Council of Nicea, is the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit one in the same of three parts, or all three parts not only distinctly separate from one another, but completely so? Does The Emperor, and the God-Emperor really have to be completely separate? No... not really, and so I am on the other side of this theory. I firmly believe that yes, The Emperor was a man with Godlike power, and the God-Emperor did not exist apart from in name until after The Emperor's near death from Horus. Since then, the Emperor has slowly been growing in power in the warp, His great Imperium giving him the necessary resources to continue his eternal struggle against the Great Enemy. Yes, "He is a tiny reed boat cast in a violent ocean, needing 1000 souls fed to him every day to even maintain a grip upon the physical realm", but as he is slowly stripped away on the Golden Throne, He is becoming stronger in the warp and is gradually becoming the God-Emperor, a totally different form, but of the same being and purpose.

Basically what DIDM said.

DOOMBREAD wrote:

Wrakkar wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:Probably not. If the Emperor became a warp entity on the level of the Chaos Gods some sort of major psychic shockwave would have occurred, like the birth of Slaanesh, but less destructive. Also, if a fifth Chaos God-type entity came into being, the warp would fall out of balance and warp disturbances would become far more common.

You have no way to prove that.

I'm just going by what happened when Slaanesh was born. Before Slaanesh, the Warp was unbalanced, as there were an odd number of Chaos powers, and when Slaanesh was born, the psychic backlash killed most of the Eldar-not that Mankind would necessarily nearly go extinct, but something major would happen, as the Emperor, if he became a warp entity, would be way more powerful than any other Chaos God. I see little difference between what happened when Slaanesh was born and what would happen if the Emperor became a warp god.

Unless the emperor was already a warp-entity, and that the warp requires uneven numbers to balance.

@Tadeshi In regards to your OP. This is basically what I believe too but I think it's not that clear cut. I don't think The Emperor and The God-Emperor are completely seperate entities. The Emperor basically ascended into Godhood through the power of Trillions worshipping it (and the daily sacrifice of thousands of psykers).

Wrakkar wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:

Wrakkar wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:Probably not. If the Emperor became a warp entity on the level of the Chaos Gods some sort of major psychic shockwave would have occurred, like the birth of Slaanesh, but less destructive. Also, if a fifth Chaos God-type entity came into being, the warp would fall out of balance and warp disturbances would become far more common.

You have no way to prove that.

I'm just going by what happened when Slaanesh was born. Before Slaanesh, the Warp was unbalanced, as there were an odd number of Chaos powers, and when Slaanesh was born, the psychic backlash killed most of the Eldar-not that Mankind would necessarily nearly go extinct, but something major would happen, as the Emperor, if he became a warp entity, would be way more powerful than any other Chaos God. I see little difference between what happened when Slaanesh was born and what would happen if the Emperor became a warp god.

Unless the emperor was already a warp-entity, and that the warp requires uneven numbers to balance.

We know that isn't true from experience. When Slaanesh was born, the warp was balanced because there was an even number of gods of varied natures, which is why the warp storms that caused the Age of Strife vanished and the Emperor was able to conquer much of the Galaxy in the wake of the Fall of the Eldar. When the Emperor was outside the Golden Throne, and we could definitively say he was alive and not a warp entity, the warp was balanced-and that was the case after the Fall of the Eldar. Additionally, if the Emperor became a warp god, Chaos would get significantly weaker, as the Emperor could overpower any of the other Chaos Gods individually, and could still pose a serious threat to them as a group.

Psienesis wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:Probably not. If the Emperor became a warp entity on the level of the Chaos Gods some sort of major psychic shockwave would have occurred, like the birth of Slaanesh, but less destructive. Also, if a fifth Chaos God-type entity came into being, the warp would fall out of balance and warp disturbances would become far more common.

Eh, except the Warp wasn't falling apart 11,000 years ago before Slaanesh emerged, and Malal was never a powerful enough Chaos God to rival the other three to make it "balanced". That theory.... just doesn't hold in keeping with what else we know.

Well, the warp wasn't exactly falling apart, but there were still tons of warp disturbances in realspace, as I mentioned before, and I'm not sure if Malal is still in 40k fluff. Did they add him back in in 6th?

No, they don't own the rights to this Malal dude afaik.

Bloody brilliant man. this is a wicked smart theory I agree 110%

Long read and some spoilers in my theory so early warning;



I think the God Emperor came into being when he made a pact allowing him to create the Primarchs. At least 2 Horus Heresy books make mention of The Emperor making a pact with the Chaos Gods, or to be more blunt Tzeentch (The Primordial Creator. Khorne and Nurgle making the Dual powers for a Primordial Evil), and then reneging on his side of the bargain.

The Emperor was granted power and removed his 'humanity' to be split up and put into the Primarchs, each one being a part of one original greater whole (Hence each one filled a certain role, and certain traits of the 'human' whole), with his humanity taken he was able to ascend to a higher plane of existence. But he would continue to deny his "Godhood" purely because the belief in him being a God, left the door open to other beliefs, which meant the Ruinous Powers would be able to continue to grow in power.

The Emperor would go on to try and use the Webway because by using that Humanity is removed from ever going through the Warp, weakening it and the powers inside. A Thousand Sons tells of how the aether will shape itself into what you 'think'. Its predators are without form until you give them the form which will do YOU the damage. With no one travelling through it, less thoughts are spread into it allowing forms to come into being.

Magnus used power from Tzeentch to 'fix' the flesh change, its entirely possible that The Emperor made a similar pact to complete the Primarch/Astartes process, otherwise he'd be stuck with the Proto-Astartes who although good, were inferior to his plans. Magnus losing an eye in his pact would then make sense, The Emperor failed to pay for what he got, Magnus would have to pay up front and then get what he was after.

Part of the background to my thinking of this was because of Terry Pratchett's Discworld, where a God was virtually as powerful as he/she/it had believers. The Less believers you had, the less power you had. At one point it is recorded Tzeentch was the most powerful of all Chaos Gods, or just simply Gods. He has had many names and many faces but all those that worshipped were worshipping him regardless of who or what he was at the time. Nurgle and Khorne would form a dual role, through blood sacrifice I get death (Nurgle), through death I get blood (Khorne). Tzeentch didn't become their 'equal' til he broke his staff, the very same thing he has been rebuilding since, when it is complete again, he takes his throne.

In the Grey Knights Omnibus and when I started following them, they're power wasn't a psychic gift, it was a beliefs based power. Their belief in the Emperor is what gave them the power to do what they do. Euphrati Keeler took her 'strength' from faith, based upon the idea that the Emperor was a God, The Word Bearers took their original strength from their 'faith', which is how Keeler came into it. The God Emperor strongly denies it to the Word Bearers, they found someone who would listen, they turned, but from there they needed to bring more people into the fold, to strengthen the overall power of Chaos. Tzeentch could gain it from any psyker, any one who followed his earlier forms, any race that still clung to their belief in "Him". Sorcery, in any form, trained and untrained psychic potentials, they all fed Tzeentch. The Eldar put "belief" into their quest for pleasure, eventually it formed itself and a new Chaos God came to be. The Emotions of it weren't enough, belief was needed to seal the deal. If it didn't come from the Eldar seeking pleasure (the later named Dark Eldar mainly), then the form could easily have come from the Eldar who were warning of something bad happening.

So for me, that is where my thoughts went on the Emperor to God Emperor thing. He made a pact, ascended to a higher place and what he took from the pact was combined with his 'mortality' and made into his "sons".

CpatTom wrote:I proposed the hypothesis of the split Emperor a while back.

So did Games Workship, 20ish years ago.

There is some kind of warp-entity/divine power on the side of the Imperium/humanity. This is a fact within the universe.

The Emperor was a real person. Also a fact.

That they are the same being is somewhat ambiguous. This has always been the case.

Oh, gamesworkshop said the "Warp Emperor" was the chaos god of human survival drawing his princes sanguinor and draigo out of the warp to defend his followers?

It was a strenuously constructed theory in an attempt to make draigo "work".

Not that you would have known all that, so apologies before hand if I come off like an ass.

SkyD wrote:Long read and some spoilers in my theory so early warning;



I think the God Emperor came into being when he made a pact allowing him to create the Primarchs. At least 2 Horus Heresy books make mention of The Emperor making a pact with the Chaos Gods, or to be more blunt Tzeentch (The Primordial Creator. Khorne and Nurgle making the Dual powers for a Primordial Evil), and then reneging on his side of the bargain.

The Emperor was granted power and removed his 'humanity' to be split up and put into the Primarchs, each one being a part of one original greater whole (Hence each one filled a certain role, and certain traits of the 'human' whole), with his humanity taken he was able to ascend to a higher plane of existence. But he would continue to deny his "Godhood" purely because the belief in him being a God, left the door open to other beliefs, which meant the Ruinous Powers would be able to continue to grow in power.

The Emperor would go on to try and use the Webway because by using that Humanity is removed from ever going through the Warp, weakening it and the powers inside. A Thousand Sons tells of how the aether will shape itself into what you 'think'. Its predators are without form until you give them the form which will do YOU the damage. With no one travelling through it, less thoughts are spread into it allowing forms to come into being.

Magnus used power from Tzeentch to 'fix' the flesh change, its entirely possible that The Emperor made a similar pact to complete the Primarch/Astartes process, otherwise he'd be stuck with the Proto-Astartes who although good, were inferior to his plans. Magnus losing an eye in his pact would then make sense, The Emperor failed to pay for what he got, Magnus would have to pay up front and then get what he was after.

Part of the background to my thinking of this was because of Terry Pratchett's Discworld, where a God was virtually as powerful as he/she/it had believers. The Less believers you had, the less power you had. At one point it is recorded Tzeentch was the most powerful of all Chaos Gods, or just simply Gods. He has had many names and many faces but all those that worshipped were worshipping him regardless of who or what he was at the time. Nurgle and Khorne would form a dual role, through blood sacrifice I get death (Nurgle), through death I get blood (Khorne). Tzeentch didn't become their 'equal' til he broke his staff, the very same thing he has been rebuilding since, when it is complete again, he takes his throne.

In the Grey Knights Omnibus and when I started following them, they're power wasn't a psychic gift, it was a beliefs based power. Their belief in the Emperor is what gave them the power to do what they do. Euphrati Keeler took her 'strength' from faith, based upon the idea that the Emperor was a God, The Word Bearers took their original strength from their 'faith', which is how Keeler came into it. The God Emperor strongly denies it to the Word Bearers, they found someone who would listen, they turned, but from there they needed to bring more people into the fold, to strengthen the overall power of Chaos. Tzeentch could gain it from any psyker, any one who followed his earlier forms, any race that still clung to their belief in "Him". Sorcery, in any form, trained and untrained psychic potentials, they all fed Tzeentch. The Eldar put "belief" into their quest for pleasure, eventually it formed itself and a new Chaos God came to be. The Emotions of it weren't enough, belief was needed to seal the deal. If it didn't come from the Eldar seeking pleasure (the later named Dark Eldar mainly), then the form could easily have come from the Eldar who were warning of something bad happening.

So for me, that is where my thoughts went on the Emperor to God Emperor thing. He made a pact, ascended to a higher place and what he took from the pact was combined with his 'mortality' and made into his "sons".

Isn't it generally accepted that Warp Gods have no material forms?

DOOMBREAD wrote:
Isn't it generally accepted that Warp Gods have no material forms?

Seeing as the Eldar are supposed to have physically interacted with their gods in the distant past, its certainly possible (if not for the old man) that the Powers could physically manifest in reality.

Tadashi wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:
Isn't it generally accepted that Warp Gods have no material forms?

Seeing as the Eldar are supposed to have physically interacted with their gods in the distant past, its certainly possible (if not for the old man) that the Powers could physically manifest in reality.

Well, in the same way as Daemons perhaps, but Chaos Gods probably couldn't also be regular creatures of the material plane.

DOOMBREAD wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:
Isn't it generally accepted that Warp Gods have no material forms?

Seeing as the Eldar are supposed to have physically interacted with their gods in the distant past, its certainly possible (if not for the old man) that the Powers could physically manifest in reality.

Well, in the same way as Daemons perhaps, but Chaos Gods probably couldn't also be regular creatures of the material plane.

Of course not. The Emperor's a psyker, not a god. He made that clear himself, even going so far as to burn a city to the ground or to personally break the faith of the last priest on Ancient Terra.

SkyD wrote:At least 2 Horus Heresy books make mention of The Emperor making a pact with the Chaos Gods,

Yes, both time by daemons trying to convince people to turn against the Emperor. Let's certainly take them at face value and as paragons of honesty.

DarknessEternal wrote:

SkyD wrote:At least 2 Horus Heresy books make mention of The Emperor making a pact with the Chaos Gods,

Yes, both time by daemons trying to convince people to turn against the Emperor. Let's certainly take them at face value and as paragons of honesty.

And Magnus...

Just because info comes from daemon's that doesn't make it 'false' automatically. Look at Othere Wyrdmake, Ahriman told him the truth, he said "No you are a sorcerer, you lie". Ahriman then crippled him by showing him, he in fact was not lying. Everything was true. Then threw Othere to the predators of the aether, vengeance for killing a helpless brother.

Magnus was told by a 'daemon' "You're not all that powerful"... Same 'Daemon' shows up at the end, "Hey, remember me, told you that you were wrong."

Some daemon's just don't make the habit of lying to the person they're talking to. They're honest and the listener is the one who snaps to instant judgement of it being false. So far, every daemon who has told the truth has in fact, told the truth.

The manipulations of the Horus Heresy have been less Warp Orientated and more Astartes orientated. Erebus, Word Bearers, Horus, Space Wolves. Chaos really hasn't had to do much at all, other people have done the job for them.

Tadashi wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:
Isn't it generally accepted that Warp Gods have no material forms?

Seeing as the Eldar are supposed to have physically interacted with their gods in the distant past, its certainly possible (if not for the old man) that the Powers could physically manifest in reality.

Well, in the same way as Daemons perhaps, but Chaos Gods probably couldn't also be regular creatures of the material plane.

Of course not. The Emperor's a psyker, not a god. He made that clear himself, even going so far as to burn a city to the ground or to personally break the faith of the last priest on Ancient Terra.

But in your theory, you declared that the Emperor may have died and his psychic essence became a warp god. What I was saying is that the Emperor couldn't have become a warp god before his death, which may not have even happened, as I believe.

I'd actually like the OP to go in 7th ed. That would be quite nice. It does seem to fit with the current fluff...