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Tyr Grimtooth wrote:You cannot have it both ways.

The USR is requiered to not only confer upon a unit but to even outflank in the first place. You keep coming up with this arbitrary line in the sand that you draw with zero rules basis saying that the IC can outflank but cannot confer. That is NOT the RAW of the rule.

There is no in-between. If you are admitting that the IC can outflank, then you are admitting that he has the USR because that is the only way he can outflank which in turn allows him to confer it to any unit he joins. That is the RAW of Outflank as a USR. There is no getting around it.

Where is the rule that says the USR is required to outflank in the first place, the line in the sand is neither arbitrary or without rules basis, it is based on the fact that Saga of the Hunter says that the character can outflank, so he can outflank and that is where the rule ends, it does not grant special rules that it doesn't say it grants.

Please for once, provide support for the claim that he can't outflank if he doesn't have the USR. Show me the rule that says this.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:You cannot have it both ways.

The USR is requiered to not only confer upon a unit but to even outflank in the first place. You keep coming up with this arbitrary line in the sand that you draw with zero rules basis saying that the IC can outflank but cannot confer. That is NOT the RAW of the rule.

There is no in-between. If you are admitting that the IC can outflank, then you are admitting that he has the USR because that is the only way he can outflank which in turn allows him to confer it to any unit he joins. That is the RAW of Outflank as a USR. There is no getting around it.

Where is the rule that says the USR is required to outflank in the first place, the line in the sand is neither arbitrary or without rules basis, it is based on the fact that Saga of the Hunter says that the character can outflank, so he can outflank and that is where the rule ends, it does not grant special rules that it doesn't say it grants.

Please for once, provide support for the claim that he can't outflank if he doesn't have the USR. Show me the rule that says this.

BRB page 40, OUTFLANK:

During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

An IC with Saga of the Hunter by himself is considered a unit, albeit a unit of one. Does said unit of one contain at least one model with the special rule? No!

So as I have said upteen times,, your intepretation breaks Saga of the Hunter because all it allows is the Stealth USR. The ability to outflank as stated in Saga of the Hunter is not the USR needed to have "at least one model with this special rule".

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:BRB page 40, OUTFLANK:

During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

An IC with Saga of the Hunter by himself is considered a unit, albeit a unit of one. Does said unit of one contain at least one model with the special rule? No!

So as I have said upteen times,, your intepretation breaks Saga of the Hunter because all it allows is the Stealth USR. The ability to outflank as stated in Saga of the Hunter is not the USR needed to have "at least one model with this special rule".

But that's incorrect, that sentence tells you that units containing a model with Outflank can declare they are outflanking, it doesn't restrict other models from being able to do so, a model can have it's own allowance to declare they are outflanking from another source (such as Saga of the Hunter).

Saga of the hunter gives specific permission to outflank. Without some restriction overriding that, then the model gets to outflank, even if it doesn't have the Outflank USR.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
There is no in-between. If you are admitting that the IC can outflank, then you are admitting that he has the USR because that is the only way he can outflank which in turn allows him to confer it to any unit he joins.

Why? I'm scratching my head here as to why you think you can't follow a special rule without having a universal special rule on top of it? In the rulebook, and I am sure it has been quoted often enough, the USR "Outflank" grants the ability to outflank, and some other things about conferring the ability to others. Then the ability to outflank is described. If another special rule in the codex also grants the ability to outflank, it is doing some but not all the things the USR does. How did you come to the conclusion you can not do something the codex tells you you can do?

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Frankly you are just coming across as one of the, "SW are too overpowered already" individuals that post your opposition in any thread regarding SW on biased principle, and biased principle only.

I actually said this on page 1, but was forced to edit out my comment.

Well just a quick search through his posting history regarding Space Wolves shows him on the opoosite opinion against anything Space Wolves. So if it needs to be edited out so be it, but I am just calling it as how it appears when it comes to Space Wolves.

Pots and kettles, Tyrwolf Grimwolf.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:BRB page 40, OUTFLANK:

During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

An IC with Saga of the Hunter by himself is considered a unit, albeit a unit of one. Does said unit of one contain at least one model with the special rule? No!

So as I have said upteen times,, your intepretation breaks Saga of the Hunter because all it allows is the Stealth USR. The ability to outflank as stated in Saga of the Hunter is not the USR needed to have "at least one model with this special rule".

But that's incorrect, that sentence tells you that units containing a model with Outflank can declare they are outflanking, it doesn't restrict other models from being able to do so, a model can have it's own allowance to declare they are outflanking from another source (such as Saga of the Hunter).

Saga of the hunter gives specific permission to outflank. Without some restriction overriding that, then the model gets to outflank, even if it doesn't have the Outflank USR.

I am using your exact wording against you.

The IC with Saga of the Hunter does not have the USR to outflank. Yes he has the ability to outflank, but as you have stated he does not explicitly have the required USR.

I posted up the exact RAW of the rule. You are now trying to get around it. The USR is needed both to outflank alone and to confer unto a unit. Without the USR, you can do neither. It is the very first sentence of the rule that sets this conditions for allowing a unit to Outflank, which an IC with just the Saga of the Hunter does not fulfill.

As I said, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot say that the IC with Saga of the Hunter has the ability to Outflank, despite not having the special rule as detailed in the first sentence. The only way he can is if you concede that the "ability to outflank" as described in the rules for Saga of the Hunter confers the Outflank USR, which in turn allows for outflanking Land Raiders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldarguy88 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
There is no in-between. If you are admitting that the IC can outflank, then you are admitting that he has the USR because that is the only way he can outflank which in turn allows him to confer it to any unit he joins.

Why? I'm scratching my head here as to why you think you can't follow a special rule without having a universal special rule on top of it? In the rulebook, and I am sure it has been quoted often enough, the USR "Outflank" grants the ability to outflank, and some other things about conferring the ability to others. Then the ability to outflank is described. If another special rule in the codex also grants the ability to outflank, it is doing some but not all the things the USR does. How did you come to the conclusion you can not do something the codex tells you you can do?

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Frankly you are just coming across as one of the, "SW are too overpowered already" individuals that post your opposition in any thread regarding SW on biased principle, and biased principle only.

I actually said this on page 1, but was forced to edit out my comment.

Well just a quick search through his posting history regarding Space Wolves shows him on the opoosite opinion against anything Space Wolves. So if it needs to be edited out so be it, but I am just calling it as how it appears when it comes to Space Wolves.

Pots and kettles, Tyrwolf Grimwolf.

I will be the first one to shut down a person trying to skew a SW rule. I just did it in another thread here where someone was trying to say that Canis had rending attacks.

There is a poster at the Bolter and Chainsword that thinks SW players that join IC not mounted on thunderwolf mounts to units of thunderwolf cavalry or join them to an IC on a thunderwolf mount are cheating, and I support him in that view 100% as well.

So if a SW argument is blatantly wrong, I will call it out. However, I am not going to actively seek out discussions and post up an opposing opinion based on if I think that army is already too overpowered so needs to be nerfed through clever rules lawyering or word games with the rules.

As it stands, per the interpretation presented by the opposing faction in this thread, Saga of the Hunter is completely broken because it does not matter in 6th edition if you have the ability to outflank, it only matters if you have the USR to outflank.

My personal opinion is that the ability to outflank in Saga of the Hunter confers the 6th edition Outflank USR thus allowing not only the IC with the saga to outflank, but alos any unit he joins as well as their dedicated transport.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:I am using your exact wording against you.

No you aren't, you think you are, but you are just using your own misunderstanding against me

The IC with Saga of the Hunter does not have the USR to outflank. Yes he has the ability to outflank, but as you have stated he does not explicitly have the required USR.

This is correct, so far you have followed the argument accurately

I posted up the exact RAW of the rule. You are now trying to get around it.

You posted one part of the rule, and I'm not trying to get around anything, but lets continue.

The USR is needed both to outflank alone and to confer unto a unit. Without the USR, you can do neither.

This is where your argument falls apart, the USR isn't needed to outflank, nothing says the only way to outflank is by having the USR, the USR grants you permission to perform an outflank, and goes on to explain what outflanking is, likewise, Saga of the Hunter gives you permission to perform an outflank.

It is the very first sentence of the rule that sets this conditions for allowing a unit to Outflank, which an IC with just the Saga of the Hunter does not fulfill.

And here, you fail to understand how the rules are structured, there is a permission for Outflanking in the Outflank USR, that doesn't mean it's the only way to get that permission, it doesn't mean other things can't have that permission without having the rule, it's not a restriction on other models that don't have the Outflank USR, it's just a permission for those models who do have it.

Drunkspleen wrote:Does Saga of the Hunter saying "The character has the ability to outflank" necessarily equate to having the Outflank USR by RAW?

It seems to me like it doesn't, and if it in fact does not, a Saga of the Hunter IC couldn't bring a unit with them (unless it separately had permission to outflank).

Drunkspleen wrote:The Outflank USR consists of two paragraphs, one explaining how a unit with at least one model that has the Outflank Special Rule may choose to outflank the enemy, and a second entirely separate one describing how a unit outflanks.

I would put forward that having "the ability to outflank" only entitles the model to use the special rules in that second paragraph, but does not grant him the skill, and as he does not have the skill, any unit he joins does not inherently gain the ability to outflank with him.

It may seem pedantic to you, but as I see it, nothing says he gains a special rule, so there's no reason for him to gain said special rule.

These are your first two posts in this thread. You openly question and then point out that an IC with Saga of the Hunter does not have the rule needed to outflank and hpthen come up with some RAI experiment that while he has the ability to do paragraph two of the Outflank USR, he doesn't have the skill to pass it along to a unit he joins. The problem is that the first paragraph sets the conditions for using the second paragraph.

There is no skill that you RAI from out of the blue. There is the RAW of the USR section saying,

"It may seem obvious but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule"

You then have the RAW of the Outflank USR that says that the unit must contain one model with the special rule to even attempt to Outflank. The very first sentence of the second paragraph then completely shuts you down,

"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves...."

It can only be an Outflanking unit if it attempted to Outflank. It can only attempt to Outflank if one model in the unit has the special rule. An IC with Saga of the Hunter does not have the special rule, per your OwN posts quoted above!!

This whole exercise has shifted away from me showing you that the ability to outflank confers the Outflank USR, to me showing you that your interpretation does not even follow the RAW, and that if it does, it completely breaks the Saga of the Hunter rule by only allowing the Stealth USR. Even my opinion that the ability to outflank confers the Outflank USR is RAI, however mine does not break the Saga of the Hunter rule by making the abilty to outflank part of it superfluous.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:You then have the RAW of the Outflank USR that says that the unit must contain one model with the special rule to even attempt to Outflank. The very first sentence of the second paragraph then completely shuts you down,

"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves...."

It can only be an Outflanking unit if it attempted to Outflank. It can only attempt to Outflank if one model in the unit has the special rule. An IC with Saga of the Hunter does not have the special rule, per your OwN posts quoted above!!

You are falling down at the same stumbling block, you just don't understand the RAW of this situation, the RAW doesn't say a unit MUST contain at least one model with the Outflank special rule to perform an Outflank, it simply says that units that do contain at least one model with Outflank CAN Outflank, once again, it's not a restriction, it's an allowance.

a Saga of the Hunter model can be "an Outflanking unit" by virtue of the fact that Saga of the Hunter says "the character has the ability to outflank"

This whole exercise has shifted away from me showing you that the ability to outflank confers the Outflank USR, to me showing you that your interpretation does not even follow the RAW, and that if it does, it completely breaks the Saga of the Hunter rule by only allowing the Stealth USR. Even my opinion that the ability to outflank confers the Outflank USR is RAI, however mine does not break the Saga of the Hunter rule by making the abilty to outflank part of it superfluous.

Yes, because you insisted on building a ridiculous straw man argument and telling me how I interpreted things based on your misunderstanding of the rules. The fact of the matter is, you can Outflank without necessarily having the Outflank USR, and Saga of the Hunter is a prime example of a unit that is able to do so.

Drunkenspleen, I get your point you are trying to make. But I think you are overlooking Column 2, Paragraph 6 on page 124:

Models that are arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank deploy using their special rules (see pages 36 and 40).

I could be mistaken, but to me this implies that if a unit is deploying via either Deep Strike or Outflank it is treated as having the special rule. Couple that with the What Special Rules Do I Have? section of the Special Rule chapter (what is it, page 23?) and I've got to think that its accurate. I don't see the three words that you hinge your argument on, "the ability to", as only giving the IC part of a special rule.

But I'll freely admit a bias in this. Without it being equivalent to the Outflank special rule, Saga of the Hunter is next to useless for deployment. I believe its only deployment benefit is if you wanted an IC to fly solo (suicide) or join Wolf Scouts Behind Enemy Lines.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:You then have the RAW of the Outflank USR that says that the unit must contain one model with the special rule to even attempt to Outflank. The very first sentence of the second paragraph then completely shuts you down,

"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves...."

It can only be an Outflanking unit if it attempted to Outflank. It can only attempt to Outflank if one model in the unit has the special rule. An IC with Saga of the Hunter does not have the special rule, per your OwN posts quoted above!!

You are falling down at the same stumbling block, you just don't understand the RAW of this situation, the RAW doesn't say a unit MUST contain at least one model with the Outflank special rule to perform an Outflank, it simply says that units that do contain at least one model with Outflank CAN Outflank, once again, it's not a restriction, it's an allowance.

a Saga of the Hunter model can be "an Outflanking unit" by virtue of the fact that Saga of the Hunter says "the character has the ability to outflank"

This whole exercise has shifted away from me showing you that the ability to outflank confers the Outflank USR, to me showing you that your interpretation does not even follow the RAW, and that if it does, it completely breaks the Saga of the Hunter rule by only allowing the Stealth USR. Even my opinion that the ability to outflank confers the Outflank USR is RAI, however mine does not break the Saga of the Hunter rule by making the abilty to outflank part of it superfluous.

Yes, because you insisted on building a ridiculous straw man argument and telling me how I interpreted things based on your misunderstanding of the rules. The fact of the matter is, you can Outflank without necessarily having the Outflank USR, and Saga of the Hunter is a prime example of a unit that is able to do so.

The RAW tells you that to even attempt an Outflank, one model in the unit has to have the special rule. Do you not understand that? The very beginning of the USR section details that unless it is stated a model does not have a special rule. Do you not understand that?

You have failed at every point in this argument. You asked for the RAW and I shoved it in your face with your own quoted posts and now you are backpedaling better then a clown on a unicycle at the circus. Your RAI of the IC with Saga of the Hunter being able to outflank but not having the skill to pass it along to a unit he joins is not only laughable, but completely unsupported by any rules support. There are only two choices,

1. The IC with Saga of the Hunter does not specifically have the USR allowing him to outflank and therefore Saga of the Hunter is currently broken until an updated FAQ addresses it.

2. The IC with Saga of the Hunter is conferred the outflank USR by having the "ability to outflank" and thus is allowed to outflank in its entirety per the USR.

There is no halfway, "he can outflank but does not have the skill to share" supported by any rules at all.

Anyone said yet that "the ability to outflank" in the codex entry can specifically overwrite the requirement for you to have the USR to use the ability?

You said yourself under "What Special Rules Do I Have?" that unless you are stated as having the rule, you don't.

so Saga of the Hunter gives you the ability to bypass needing the outflank USR to gain the some of the benefits of it, but it still doesn't state you have it.

And you promptly ignored what I pointed out on Page 124. It sounded like to me that if you Outflank you are treated as having the Outflank Special rule. Likewise for Deep Strike.

cowmonaut wrote:And you promptly ignored what I pointed out on Page 124. It sounded like to me that if you Outflank you are treated as having the Outflank Special rule. Likewise for Deep Strike.

Hate to burst your bubble, but Saga of the Hunter is a special rule too. It doesn't say they come in only upon their universal special rules.

Oop, three pages back, nevermind.

SCvodimier wrote:Anyone said yet that "the ability to outflank" in the codex entry can specifically overwrite the requirement for you to have the USR to use the ability?

You said yourself under "What Special Rules Do I Have?" that unless you are stated as having the rule, you don't.

so Saga of the Hunter gives you the ability to bypass needing the outflank USR to gain the some of the benefits of it, but it still doesn't state you have it.

Yes it has been mentioned, however there is no rules support for only partially using the Outflank USR.

The RAI interpretation being proposed arbitrarily draws a line in the sand of being able to outflank, but not have the skill to pass it along to joined units does so without any direction to draw that line at that point.

The wording of "ability to outflank" is no longer a defined action like it was in 5th edition when outflank was just a special move and not a USR as it is now. To infer that a defined action in 5th edition suddenly has a defined action in 6th, with zero rules support to back up that assumption is wrong.

To maintain any resemblance of following the RAW, you adhere to the new rules set by 6th edition which dictates that unless specifically stated a model does not have a USR and that the unit contain at least one model with the special rule to attempt to Outflank. As such, per RAW, Saga of the Hunter is currently broken until a FAQ either clears up exactly what, "ability to outflank" entails.

Personally, I think that ability to outflank confers the Outflank USR and all that having the special rule entails. While that interpretation does favor my army, I choose that interpretation because it does not attempt to break up the 6th edition Outflank rule into some "ability" and some "skill" RAI of being able to do one part of the USR, while not following the RAW of the USR, but not having the "skill" to do the other part.

I would play it one of the two ways above, either Saga of the Hunter is broken or it grants the Outflank USR.

cowmonaut wrote:
But I'll freely admit a bias in this. Without it being equivalent to the Outflank special rule, Saga of the Hunter is next to useless for deployment. I believe its only deployment benefit is if you wanted an IC to fly solo (suicide) or join Wolf Scouts Behind Enemy Lines.

Just to clarify, "Behind Enemy Lines" is a special rule all to itself and has nothing to do with Outflank. Just because I have the "ability to outflank" doesn't mean I have the "ability to go behind enemy lines". They're different. However, I believe and independent infantry character with SotH, or a wolf guard pack leader can attach to wolf scouts and go behind enemy lines. There is some text to that effect in the codex, but I don't have mine with me right now.

Ouflank was a abilty

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:The RAW tells you that to even attempt an Outflank, one model in the unit has to have the special rule. Do you not understand that?

Geez, I just don't know how to make this any clearer, I think we are stuck at an impasse due to your inability to understand the difference between an allowance and an imperative. There is no RAW that tells you a unit MUST contain a model with Outflank to perform an Outflank. No matter how many times you say there is, it will not magically come into existence.

You need to read the rules again paying careful attention to the specific words used. There Is no Restriction that limits Outflanking only to the models who are said to be able to declare it within the Outflank Special Rule's structure.

The very beginning of the USR section details that unless it is stated a model does not have a special rule. Do you not understand that?

Evidently I do, given I am the person who brought that rules quote into the argument.

You have failed at every point in this argument. You asked for the RAW and I shoved it in your face with your own quoted posts and now you are backpedaling better then a clown on a unicycle at the circus.

No you didn't, see my first point in this post, you just don't understand the RAW, the only thing you are "shoving in my face" is your inability to read and lack of comprehension

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Yes it has been mentioned, however there is no rules support for only partially using the Outflank USR.

Space Wolf Codex, under Saga of the Hunter.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:The RAW tells you that to even attempt an Outflank, one model in the unit has to have the special rule. Do you not understand that?

Geez, I just don't know how to make this any clearer, I think we are stuck at an impasse due to your inability to understand the difference between an allowance and an imperative. There is no RAW that tells you a unit MUST contain a model with Outflank to perform an Outflank. No matter how many times you say there is, it will not magically come into existence.

You need to read the rules again paying careful attention to the specific words used. There Is no Restriction that limits Outflanking only to the models who are said to be able to declare it within the Outflank Special Rule's structure.

The very beginning of the USR section details that unless it is stated a model does not have a special rule. Do you not understand that?

Evidently I do, given I am the person who brought that rules quote into the argument.

You have failed at every point in this argument. You asked for the RAW and I shoved it in your face with your own quoted posts and now you are backpedaling better then a clown on a unicycle at the circus.

No you didn't, see my first point in this post, you just don't understand the RAW, the only thing you are "shoving in my face" is your inability to read and lack of comprehension

We are going to do a little exercise to help us understand each other then. Go ahead and edit out my answers and place your own for each question.

1. Who can attempt to Outflank?

A unit that contains at least one model with the Outflank USR. (BRB page 40, OUTFLANK)

2. Does an IC with Saga of the Hunter have the Outflank USR?

No.

The character has the ability to outflank and the Stealth rule. (Codex SW page 64, Saga of the Hunter)

3. Why does an IC with Saga of the Hunter not have the Outflank USR?

It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. (BRB, page 32, WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?)

1. Who can attempt to Outflank?

Anyone who is given permission to Outflank by any means, be it through the Outflank Special Rule, or some other Special Rule such as Saga of the Hunter.

2. Does an IC with Saga of the Hunter have the Outflank USR?

No.

The character has the ability to outflank and the Stealth rule. (Codex SW page 64, Saga of the Hunter)

3. Why does an IC with Saga of the Hunter not have the Outflank USR?

It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. (BRB, page 32, WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?)

Drunkspleen wrote:1. Who can attempt to Outflank?

Anyone who is given permission to Outflank by any means, be it through the Outflank Special Rule, or some other Special Rule such as Saga of the Hunter.

2. Does an IC with Saga of the Hunter have the Outflank USR?

No.

The character has the ability to outflank and the Stealth rule. (Codex SW page 64, Saga of the Hunter)

3. Why does an IC with Saga of the Hunter not have the Outflank USR?

It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. (BRB, page 32, WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?)

okay.

"The character has the ability to outflank" - Saga of the Hunter (Codex: Space Wolves, Page 64)

Drunkspleen wrote:okay.

"The character has the ability to outflank" - Saga of the Hunter (Codex: Space Wolves, Page 64)

It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. (BRB, page 32, WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?)

All you have done above is quote a rule referencing a special move in 5th edition, not a USR in 6th. Remember you agreed in both answers to question 2 and 3 above that an IC with Saga of the Hunter does not have the Outflank USR.

So again, I ask you to give me a rules citation for the following premise;

Anyone who is given permission to Outflank by any means, be it through the Outflank Special Rule, or some other Special Rule such as Saga of the Hunter.

He doesn't have the Outflank Special Rule, it doesn't matter, he can outflank without having the Outflank special rule, because he has a different special rule which allows him to outflank.

Saga of the Hunter says that the character may outflank, that is all the RAW that is needed, he has a rule saying he can outflank, and there is absolutely no rule which overrides that and says that he may not outflank.

so Saga of the Hunter is the necessary rules citation, it's the basis on which the whole rule system operates. If a model is given permission to outflank it is allowed to outflank, I don't need to provide a rules quote to back this up, it's just a function of a permissive rule set.

Permission leads to action.

Khan rules refers to the the "outflank ability" rather than the USR

So it appears that is be how GW viewed it in 5th as an ability rather than a USR

rather than some specially worded preparation for 6th ed

remember Outflank was not a USR in 5th but stealth was
Outflank was ability granted by the infiltrate and scout USR's
[quote =5th ed brb]Infiltrate also confers a special outflank move

Drunkspleen wrote:He doesn't have the Outflank Special Rule, it doesn't matter, he can outflank without having the Outflank special rule, because he has a different special rule which allows him to outflank.

Saga of the Hunter says that the character may outflank, that is all the RAW that is needed, he has a rule saying he can outflank, and there is absolutely no rule which overrides that and says that he may not outflank.

so Saga of the Hunter is the necessary rules citation, it's the basis on which the whole rule system operates. If a model is given permission to outflank it is allowed to outflank, I don't need to provide a rules quote to back this up, it's just a function of a permissive rule set.

Permission leads to action.

If conditions are met, permission is given, and action can be taken.

I just realized that all you are going to do is just make up rules on the whim such as,

Anyone who is given permission to Outflank by any means, be it through the Outflank Special Rule, or some other Special Rule such as Saga of the Hunter.

And then this just made up idea/rule/RAI/whatever;

I would put forward that having "the ability to outflank" only entitles the model to use the special rules in that second paragraph, but does not grant him the skill, and as he does not have the skill, any unit he joins does not inherently gain the ability to outflank with him.

You can't quote a single rule that backs up either statement and then you just ignore the RAW in favor of your made up gak. I can't even take you serious if all you are going to do is just make up stuff as the debate goes on.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:I just realized that all you are going to do is just make up rules on the whim such as,

Anyone who is given permission to Outflank by any means, be it through the Outflank Special Rule, or some other Special Rule such as Saga of the Hunter.

And then this just made up idea/rule/RAI/whatever;

I would put forward that having "the ability to outflank" only entitles the model to use the special rules in that second paragraph, but does not grant him the skill, and as he does not have the skill, any unit he joins does not inherently gain the ability to outflank with him.

You can't quote a single rule that backs up either statement and then you just ignore the RAW in favor of your made up gak. I can't even take you serious if all you are going to do is just make up stuff as the debate goes on.

I'm not making up anything, it's a goddamn fact, if you have permission to outflank you get to outflank, I dare you to make a thread with the title "if I have permission to outflank can I outflank" and look at the responses you get, everyone will support my theory that permission to outflank leads to outflanking.

I worded that earlier quote poorly, I'm not saying these characters don't actually get access to the first part of the rule, they do, they simply don't satisfy the requirements for it, while they do satisfy the requirements for the second half because they are "outflanking units".

Dswanick wrote:
Simple question - if outflank does not mean Outflank USR then what R.A.W. is outflank?
"Models that are arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank deploy using their special rules (see pages 36 adn 40).", BRB, Pg.124
"The character has the ability to outflank and the Stealth rule.", C:SW, Pg.64
Note the lack of the letters U,S, and R in either the BRB rule or the C:SW rule. Codex: Space Wolves tells you the model may outflank. You then refer to the BRB to know how to outflank. The BRB Mission Special Rules tells you to refer to the Special Rule enumerated on Pg.40. The Special Rule on Pg.40 tells you that it only takes one model per unit.

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Drunkspleen wrote:
I worded that earlier quote poorly, I'm not saying these characters don't actually get access to the first part of the rule, they do, they simply don't satisfy the requirements for it, while they do satisfy the requirements for the second half because they are "outflanking units".

No your just using the fact that the Outflank changed into a rule rather than ability to lawyer it


Khan's rules refer to outflank as a ability too. Gw call it that because in 5th it was only part of USR and not a full rule.

If you are going to call me a rules lawyer so quickly I'm not going to engage in discussion with you.