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dorantana wrote:Just got an official ruling from GW customer service. Saga Hunter does not confer outflank to dedicated transports.

Dude you know better than that. First customer service isn't offical, second I could call them up right now and get a different answer to the same question.

You can outflank with a landraider by the rules, just not sure why you would want to unless it's longways deployment.

n0t_u wrote:If you get the right things, yeah you can. I think Khan allowed the normal marines to, as it mentioned applying to dedicated transports if I remember correctly. Which would allow just one to.

Actually, he would allow 2 to outflank, since 1 Squad of both Assault and Tactical Terminators are allowed to take a Land Raider as a Dedicated transport...

Part of the original issue with this is that in 5th Outflanking wasnt a USR, nor did it confer to the squad.

Technically the statement "the ability to outflank" referred to the ability to enter reserves via outflanking, which was most commonly granted by Infiltrate or Scouts.

Also, the Axe of Morkai is not an Unusual Power Weapon, as it is IN NO WAY a power weapon.

Neither Power Fists or Frost Weapons are Power Weapons, and therefore the rules for Unusual weapons do not apply.

dorantana wrote:Just got an official ruling from GW customer service. Saga Hunter does not confer outflank to dedicated transports.

My email from GW on this subject tells me that SW Land Raiders are unique in that not only can Saga of the Hunter confer outflank, but that SW Land Raiders have unlimited fire points for the occupants.

Aye, when I've called them in the past about rule questions they've always referred back to their stores (or put me through to the Warhammer World store directly)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kiredor wrote:Neither Power Fists or Frost Weapons are Power Weapons, and therefore the rules for Unusual weapons do not apply.

No comment on frost weapons, simply as I don't know anything about them, but does POWER fist not hint at it being a POWER weapon? That and it ignoring armour saves ala all other power weapons?

(let's not stay on this one too long as doing so will get the thread locked)

kitch102 wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Neither Power Fists or Frost Weapons are Power Weapons, and therefore the rules for Unusual weapons do not apply.

No comment on frost weapons, simply as I don't know anything about them, but does POWER fist not hint at it being a POWER weapon? That and it ignoring armour saves ala all other power weapons?

(let's not stay on this one too long as doing so will get the thread locked)

Stats for frost weapons can be found in the SpaceWolf FAQ.
Power fists have separate stats and rules for power weapons. Fluff-wise they use a similar power field to sword but rule wise totally different. It's all done on AP's now instead of ignoring armour.

Happyjew wrote:
Too bad GW customer service is less reliable than uhh, something really unreliable...sorry couldn't think of a good analogy...

What he said. GW doesn't give a crap how you play. Just pay them your $75 for the privilege and they'll let you have the rules however you want them.

The Saga of the hunter brings up the exact same scenario as someone who takes Khan in a space marine army.

Where your troops end up having outflank along with their dedicated transport.

RAW it works.

You can disagree and choose to ignore it if you want. But when someone pulls it on you in a tournament do not expect a ruling in your favor.

You don't HAVE to ouflank a Land Raider. You can outflank a Rhino if you want. As long as it's the dedicated transport.

As for the Saga of the Hunter rule being "INFANTRY ONLY" WAS (5th ed in mind here) to prevent WGBL from outflanking on a Thunderwolf, bike in terminator armor with a bunch of Wolf Scouts.

@Erik_Morkai: Saga of the Hunter specifically disallow units on TW, bike, jump pack or Terminator armour. I don't see where it says "Infantry only".

For Khan, it is very clear, the codex says specifically that their dedicated transport gains the Outflank rule.

@leohart

Saga of the hunter specifically disallows models that are not infantry from taking the saga. It doesn't say that the model who has the saga cannot then join a unit which is not infantry.

So I can take a wolf guard battle leader in power armor with saga of the hunter and then attach him to a unit of grey hunters that has a rhino. The WGBL, an infantry model with saga of the hunter, now has the outflank USR. He therefore confers the USR to the unit of grey hunters (as per the BRB outflank USR) including the dedicated transport - a rhino in this case.

EDIT : Since the thread was about outflanking a land raider though, here is how that could happen. I take a wolf priest in power armor with saga of the hunter. I attach him to a unit of Wolf Guard (say 5 terminators or whatever) that have taken a Land Raider as a dedicated transport. Saga of the Hunter gives the wolf priest "the ability to outflank" - which can only be read as the outflank USR. Since the wolf priest is now a member of the unit, we see that at least one model in the unit has the outflank USR and so the entire unit can outflank - including the dedicated transport, a land raider.

Saga of the hunter does not convay Outflank to the LR it convays it to an infrantry Charater who in turns convays it to the transport of the unit he joins .......JMO



But Good News EVERYONE!!!<read in a farnsworth voice> wolves get only 1 LR dedicated trans

That is all you need.

leohart wrote:@Erik_Morkai: Saga of the Hunter specifically disallow units on TW, bike, jump pack or Terminator armour. I don't see where it says "Infantry only".

For Khan, it is very clear, the codex says specifically that their dedicated transport gains the Outflank rule.

No, like the Space Wolves it says they gain "the ability to outflank" it's of less consequence here, but similarly you couldn't attach a unit that doesn't have some right to outflanking (like an allied IC) to a Khan enabled outflanking unit.

I don't see why the fact that Outflank is now offered as a USR should change the effect of these rules, they didn't grant you a special rule before, and they don't now, they simply aren't written that way. All they do is allow you to make use of a special method of arriving from reserves.

Drunkspleen wrote:
I don't see why the fact that Outflank is now offered as a USR should change the effect of these rules, they didn't grant you a special rule before, and they don't now, they simply aren't written that way. All they do is allow you to make use of a special method of arriving from reserves.

The problem with this argument is that the word outflank does not actually mean anything in 6th edition if it is not actually referring to the USR. Can you point to me a section of the rules that explains what "the ability to outflank" means without pointing to the USR entry in the BRB?

By this logic, there can only be one of two outcomes:

Outcome 1: You are correct. In this case you are far too limiting in the consequence. By saying that "the ablity to outflank" is not referring to the USR, you are essentially saying that the words are nothing more than fluff and are therefore meaningless. In this case, Saga of the Hunter only really grants the Character that takes it the Stealth USR, and nothing more.

Outcome 2: You are incorrect. In this case the line of text MUST be referring to the USR for all cases, not only does it grant the Outflank USE to the character that has Safa of the Hunter, but that Character can in turn convey the rule to a unit he is attached to as well as their dedicated transport.

Can you point me to a section of the rules that says the only way to follow the rules of a USR is if a unit in fact posesses that USR?

Because I can point you to a section of the rules that say you can in fact benefit from a USR without possessing the Special Rule itself, that section would be in the Space Wolves and Space Marines Codexes where it says units have "the ability to outflank" without granting them the special rule.

Also note the following from page 32 of the core rulebook:

"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule"

which only adds further weight to my point, which is that, in the absence of a statement specifically granting them the rule, they don't have it.

If you want to argue to extend that further and say they can't make use of any of the rules in a USR they don't have, that's your prerogative.

Drunkspleen wrote::"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule"

Well that shakes things up. Goes to show if you want to gain advantage by applying new RAW to old codexes, you need to be careful, because of the implication. Dig deep enough and you might wind up with less than you started with.

Drunkspleen wrote:Can you point me to a section of the rules that says the only way to follow the rules of a USR is if a unit in fact posesses that USR?

Because I can point you to a section of the rules that say you can in fact benefit from a USR without possessing the Special Rule itself, that section would be in the Space Wolves and Space Marines Codexes where it says units have "the ability to outflank" without granting them the special rule.

Also note the following from page 32 of the core rulebook:

"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule"

which only adds further weight to my point, which is that, in the absence of a statement specifically granting them the rule, they don't have it.

If you want to argue to extend that further and say they can't make use of any of the rules in a USR they don't have, that's your prerogative.

You make absolutely no sense.

The character has the ability to outflank. Where do you find out what it means to have the ability to outflank? The USR in the BRB.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:Can you point me to a section of the rules that says the only way to follow the rules of a USR is if a unit in fact posesses that USR?

Because I can point you to a section of the rules that say you can in fact benefit from a USR without possessing the Special Rule itself, that section would be in the Space Wolves and Space Marines Codexes where it says units have "the ability to outflank" without granting them the special rule.

Also note the following from page 32 of the core rulebook:

"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule"

which only adds further weight to my point, which is that, in the absence of a statement specifically granting them the rule, they don't have it.

If you want to argue to extend that further and say they can't make use of any of the rules in a USR they don't have, that's your prerogative.

You make absolutely no sense.

The character has the ability to outflank. Where do you find out what it means to have the ability to outflank? The USR in the BRB.

You should check out Fuegan in codex Eldar. It says he can attack like a monstrous creature, does that mean he gets the smash USR now?

yes, he has the ability to outflank, but does not himself have the Outflank Special Rule.

you refer to the Outflank Special Rule to find out how to use his ability to outflank, and he himself as an individual model can use those rules, but as he is not a model with the Outflank Special Rule, he doesn't meet the requirements for allowing a unit he is in to Outflank.

I feel like I covered this in my very first post in this thread...?

(if not the first, definitely the second)

Drunkspleen wrote:yes, he has the ability to outflank, but does not himself have the Outflank Special Rule.

you refer to the Outflank Special Rule to find out how to use his ability to outflank, and he himself as an individual model can use those rules, but as he is not a model with the Outflank Special Rule, he doesn't meet the requirements for allowing a unit he is in to Outflank.

I feel like I covered this in my very first post in this thread...?

(if not the first, definitely the second)

You covered it. We just disagree with you.

A model with SotH has "the ability to outflank". That model therefore may use the rules governing outflank. Those rules are now a USR in 6th. Under the outflank USR, it says "if at least one model in the unit..." So if you attach the model with SotH to a unit, it confers the "ability to outflank" to that unit.

That's how I read it. You disagree.

I felt the need to clarify since I'm being told I make no sense after putting forth what I consider a coherent and well supported argument.

It's interesting that you seem to have accepted he doesn't in fact possess the rule, but merely has permission to use it, but are still insisting he meets the criteria for creating a unit wherein at least one model has the Outflank Special Rule, which he doesn't have.

It's no different to a psychic power that lets you "move like jump infantry" or a unit that has preferred enemy "in assault". You would not say they have all the associated rules or the full USR, that is a unit with preferred enemy in assault would not be able to re-roll shooting and a unit that moved like jump infantry would not be bulky in a transport, without a rule like the one for Jump infantry that specifically states they acquire all special rules. Or once again, Fuegan, if anyone bothered to look attacking like a monstrous creature.

This distinction between having a rule or unit type or being able to conditionally act using some of those rules is not unique to Yiffs, an no one else gets the USR by RAW.

Drunkspleen wrote:
It's interesting that you seem to have accepted he doesn't in fact possess the rule, but merely has permission to use it, but are still insisting he meets the criteria for creating a unit wherein at least one model has the Outflank Special Rule, which he doesn't have.

I accept no such thing. I accept that the wording says "has the ability to" instead of "has the rule". But given the recent change in the core rules which makes outflank a USR, I believe that the two wordings are equivalent. SotH confers the outflank USR to the character which takes the saga.

EDIT : Fortunately, you and I live on the opposite sides of the Earth from each other and hence, you can play your way and I can play mine.

Eldarguy88 wrote:It's no different to a psychic power that lets you "move like jump infantry" or a unit that has preferred enemy "in assault". You would not say they have all the associated rules or the full USR, that is a unit with preferred enemy in assault would not be able to re-roll shooting and a unit that moved like jump infantry would not be bulky in a transport, without a rule like the one for Jump infantry that specifically states they acquire all special rules. Or once again, Fuegan, if anyone bothered to look attacking like a monstrous creature.

This distinction between having a rule or unit type or being able to conditionally act using some of those rules is not unique to Yiffs, an no one else gets the USR by RAW.

I would take your example of "move like jump infantry" and use it with caution as it was quite the debate in last edition if a hive tyrant with wings could deepstrike because he could "move like jump infantry" which then was FAQ'd to clarify that he was indeed able to deepstrike.

As it was in that case and is in this case, there is no "line in the sand" as to where having the ability to outflank ends in the USR. We know in the case of the hive tyrant debate that it was inclusive of the entire rule. By your standard, Saga of the Hunter would then not also confer stealth. But where did you get the right to draw the line at that point?

As there is no line drawn within the new USR and the only way to use Saga of the Hunter now is to reference the new USR, I think that you follow the USR in its entirety.

As an aside, does this modify the way Nid's Hive Commander works in relation to if you have an IC attached?

Yonush wrote:As an aside, does this modify the way Nid's Hive Commander works in relation to if you have an IC attached?

Not really no.
Still a no-go on that.

As per pg. 32 in th BRB, "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented as a special rule" So saying he has an ability to outflank but not the special rule outflank is false. The what special rules do i have section is for situations such as I am using some space marine scouts so they should have the stealth and the scout usr, but unless its stated thats not true. IIRC I think this is currently the case with DA scouts and also Neophytes from Black Templars.

Rigeld, could you expand on that please. From what I can see now, HC gives the troops outflank which then confers the usr to the ic per 1st paragraph of the usr.

Where is the denial? Or should I start a new topic?

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:I would take your example of "move like jump infantry" and use it with caution as it was quite the debate in last edition if a hive tyrant with wings could deepstrike because he could "move like jump infantry" which then was FAQ'd to clarify that he was indeed able to deepstrike.

As it was in that case and is in this case, there is no "line in the sand" as to where having the ability to outflank ends in the USR. We know in the case of the hive tyrant debate that it was inclusive of the entire rule. By your standard, Saga of the Hunter would then not also confer stealth. But where did you get the right to draw the line at that point?

As there is no line drawn within the new USR and the only way to use Saga of the Hunter now is to reference the new USR, I think that you follow the USR in its entirety.

His point with regards to Jump Infantry was that it is a special case that specifically says "moves like uses all the rules and gets all the special rules" because otherwise, the phrase wouldn't inherently have that meaning, and would only allow you to move like jump infantry, you could debate what constitutes moving, but it certainly wouldn't grant associated USRs (if not for that specific exception in the rulebook).

It's foolish to try and use the "by your standard" schtick, especially when you do it incorrectly, anyone can look right in a discussion when they get to put words in the other person's mouth.

By any standard Saga of the Hunter still grants stealth, because it explicitly says the model has the Stealth rule, whereas, it does not say they have the outflank rule, but rather, only the ability to use said deployment method.

Yonush wrote:Rigeld, could you expand on that please. From what I can see now, HC gives the troops outflank which then confers the usr to the ic per 1st paragraph of the usr.

Where is the denial? Or should I start a new topic?

New topic.

As soon as the IC joins it's no longer a Troop unit, it's a Troop + IC unit. That's the prevailing argument in YMDC anyway.
I disagree because once he's joined he's a normal member of the unit in every way. But every time I bring that up I get shot down.
It's one thing that annoys me about YMDC - how ICs are 100% indisputably members of the unit they join and not ever their own unit - except when they are.

Feel free to copy/paste this into the new thread if you make one.