Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Instead of calling it "Feel No Pain", they should have called it "Only Feel Pain from Tx2 Wounds". Then instead of abbreviating it a FNP, we would write OFPFT2W.

(Just a joke guys - I have nothing constructive to say about the rules.)

This argument came up before on other forums and everyone agrees it will need to be FAQed for everyone to be happy.

My 2 cents.

Is there such a thing as an "ID wound" in the rulebook?

All I remember seeing is circumstances in which wounds inflict instand death.

There are no "poison wound" "power weapon wound"
Just "wounds" with different effects and attributes.

ID is an effect, not an attribute. An attribute is AP2 for instance. Does not matter if shoot vs T3 or T8 the wound will have AP2.

ID is an effect as the same wound will not affect a T3 and a T8 in the same way. It might not affect them at all.

If the effect cannot be applied because of EW nothing was inflicted on the model. All that is left is an unsaved wound against which FnP can be taken.

Its not about effect, it is about cause.

A Str 10 attack will cause ID on a T5 or less model.

The effect of that Unsaved wound is the Instant edath rule where the wounds are reduced to 0, instead of just losing one wound.

EW only ignores the effects.

I think at this point we are just going in circles and the thread can be locked.

DeathReaper wrote:Its not about effect, it is about cause.

A Str 10 attack will cause ID on a T5 or less model.

The effect of that Unsaved wound is the Instant edath rule where the wounds are reduced to 0, instead of just losing one wound.

EW only ignores the effects.

A STR10 attack will cause ID on a T5 or less model without eternal warrior. A str10 attack will never cause ID on Fuegan - his FnP is negated by 'weapons which cause ID" - you can argue it needs an FAQ but the 40k rulebook isn't written with some sort of explicit difference between effects and causes WRT things like FnP.

It makes far less sense for a FnP model with EW to take a wound, attempt to roll FnP, and have the opponent say ''well, if he was like, a different model, that HAD his toughness, but did NOT have FnP, then he would have been instant killed, therefore your completely different EW model over here with FnP can't attempt FnP"

MikeMcSomething, you are missing one important fact.

Ignoring FNP is not and effect of ID, It is a restriction on FNP itself.

EW only ignores the Effects of the ID rule.

DeathReaper wrote:MikeMcSomething, you are missing one important fact.

Ignoring FNP is not and effect of ID, It is a restriction on FNP itself.

EW only ignores the Effects of the ID rule.

We can go in circles for days with this but you are leaving out key parts in the wording of the rule.

EW ignores the effect of the ID rule.

FnP does not work if ID is inflicted (in other words applied).

The actual wording is inflict not "can cause instant death".

Look up the definition of inflict. It implies a change something unpleasant being imposed. Nothing unpleasant happened and nothing was imposed since no effects were felt. If no effects were felt, nothing was inflicted

ID was never inflicted or applied to the model since the wounds are not instantly being reduced to 0.

ID is defined as unsaved wounds inflicted with this special rule automatically inflict instant death regardless of the target's toughness.

No where does it say: "Wound becomes instant death type." Instant death is not an attribute or a flag on a particular attack. It is an effect and nothing else.

If a rule is defined as being an effect and another rule ignores the effect, what is left of the first rule? Absolutely nothing.

Now you will mention that it is a provision of FnP and not ID but it does not matter at this point. ID is ignored and nothing is left to trigger the provision within FnP.

In 5th edition FnP had a clause to bypass Eternal Warrior. Now it does not anymore.

Except the ID wound was inflicted - not doing so would be against the rules.
The effect of the ID wound was ignored, but the wound is being applied - that's why you're trying to roll FnP remember?

rigeld2 wrote:Except the ID wound was inflicted - not doing so would be against the rules.
The effect of the ID wound was ignored, but the wound is being applied - that's why you're trying to roll FnP remember?

First, let me repeat: There is no such thing as an "ID wound", it does not exist in the rulebook. It is something that was made up into something it is not.

How can ID be inflicted if it is ignored?

Re-read the text for instant death.

It says "ID is defined as unsaved wounds inflicted with this special rule automatically inflict instant death regardless of the target's toughness."

The wound was inflicted but not it's effect. Therefore instant death was not inflicted since it is an effect and not a type or class of wounds.

A mate of mine noticed something that I and others have not, EW says it ignores the "effectS" (plural) of ID, what other effects are there appart from being droped to 0 wounds? thats right... FNP negation.


On a side note, I agree this one does need FAQ'in

Except it is a class of wounds - you just quoted it. It's a wound with the ID special rule.

ID cannot refer to the effect and must refer to the special rule.
If it referred to the effect, all wounds would get FnP because the ID effect isn't applied until the wound is applied to the model, even for models without EW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Formosa wrote:A mate of mine noticed something that I and others have not, EW says it ignores the "effectS" (plural) of ID, what other effects are there appart from being droped to 0 wounds? thats right... FNP negation.

It's actually 0w and being removed as a casualty - both are effects of ID.

And you're trying to say that a requirement of one special rule is an effect of another. That doesn't make sense.

On a side note, I agree this one does need FAQ'in

Absolutely.

No. Eternal Warrior allows you to ignore the 'effects' of Instant Death not ignore the entire rule itself.

Does the unsaved wound inflict instant death? If yes, FnP cannot be used. Instant Death then reduces the models wounds to 0. Eternal Warrior then kicks in and ignores the 'effects' of Instand Death and thusly only removes the one wound.

But "FnP is ignored by wounds that inflict instant death"

Can Instant Death be inflicted on an Eternal Warrior?

No.

Grey Templar wrote:But "FnP is ignored by wounds that inflict instant death"

Can Instant Death be inflicted on an Eternal Warrior?

No.

Yes, it most certainly can, but the 'effects' of being reduced to 0 wounds are ignored.

Grey Templar wrote:But "FnP is ignored by wounds that inflict instant death"

Can Instant Death be inflicted on an Eternal Warrior?

No.

At the time you're checking to see if it's an ID wound (wound that inflicts ID for those people) EW doesn't apply.
It's only when the wound is applied to the model that EW kicks in and the effect is ignored and you suffer a single wound.

I completely disagree.

Grey Templar wrote:I completely disagree.

Nice and succinct.

Do you have a reason for trying to apply EW before the wound gets resolved?

My previous post.


ID was not inflicted on the Eternal Warrior, and never can be. Thus, the FnP denial trigger is never satisfied.

Grey Templar wrote:My previous post.


ID was not inflicted on the Eternal Warrior, and never can be. Thus, the FnP denial trigger is never satisfied.

Right.
So you're trying to apply EW (ignoring the effects of ID) before the wound is resolved, and you're saying "inflict" must mean the actual effect when it cannot mean that.

I mean it means exactly what the definition means.

The ID wound is not an ID wound against Eternal Warrior. Therefore it was never inflicted, its exactly like a regular wound against them.

If it cannot be inflicted it cannot ignore FnP.

I'm done with this argument. Until GW FAQs it against my position I will play it like this.

So let me get this straight.

EW = Can't be ID.
FNP = Can be ID? Or can't use FNP from ID wounds?

So my EW with FNP can't be ID but my EW with FNP can be ID.

Try to tell someone in a Tourney that. I'd like to see them laugh in your face.

MJThurston wrote:So let me get this straight.

EW = Can't be ID.
FNP = Can be ID? Or can't use FNP from ID wounds?

So my EW with FNP can't be ID but my EW with FNP can be ID.

Try to tell someone in a Tourney that. I'd like to see them laugh in your face.

That's absolutely nothing like what I'm saying. But have fun straw manning.

rigeld2 wrote:Except it is a class of wounds - you just quoted it. It's a wound with the ID special rule.

ID cannot refer to the effect and must refer to the special rule.
If it referred to the effect, all wounds would get FnP because the ID effect isn't applied until the wound is applied to the model, even for models without EW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Formosa wrote:A mate of mine noticed something that I and others have not, EW says it ignores the "effectS" (plural) of ID, what other effects are there appart from being droped to 0 wounds? thats right... FNP negation.

It's actually 0w and being removed as a casualty - both are effects of ID.

And you're trying to say that a requirement of one special rule is an effect of another. That doesn't make sense.

On a side note, I agree this one does need FAQ'in

Absolutely.

"And you're trying to say that a requirement of one special rule is an effect of another. That doesn't make sense."

Apart from the whole rulebook where this happens alot right... thats what you mean yeah?

So if you go to a movie and you ignore the 'gentleman' sitting right behind you talking very loudly on his cell phone does that mean he doesn't exist? No. Ignore =/= never happened.

Formosa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Except it is a class of wounds - you just quoted it. It's a wound with the ID special rule.

ID cannot refer to the effect and must refer to the special rule.
If it referred to the effect, all wounds would get FnP because the ID effect isn't applied until the wound is applied to the model, even for models without EW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Formosa wrote:A mate of mine noticed something that I and others have not, EW says it ignores the "effectS" (plural) of ID, what other effects are there appart from being droped to 0 wounds? thats right... FNP negation.

It's actually 0w and being removed as a casualty - both are effects of ID.

And you're trying to say that a requirement of one special rule is an effect of another. That doesn't make sense.

On a side note, I agree this one does need FAQ'in

Absolutely.

"And you're trying to say that a requirement of one special rule is an effect of another. That doesn't make sense."

Apart from the whole rulebook where this happens alot right... thats what you mean yeah?

No. Other special rules interact, yes. I don't know of a single other one that interacts in this manner.